00:00.00 Alan Out there in archeology podcast land this is your host Dr Allen Garfinkel this is the third third and final segment of rock art episode 80 with Don La Pony giving us the story and the saga. Of understanding shamanism in its current manifestations and in the past as well from a sophisticated and revolutionary view of the accuracy and reality of successful. Intervention in disease. How's that so done tell us another one give us another example, no problem. 00:40.80 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Yeah I think that's what a disease and beyond. Okay, well let me tell you 2 1 is very fast. Um the elder um the elder black elk Nicholas black elk had let's talk about 3 events in his life had only take a minute first event. 00:57.36 Alan Um, coming. Yes, no. 01:08.58 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ He was at custard's last stand at the little big horn. Incredibly I think he was 11 or twelve years old and he killed at least 3 soldiers and scalped them. That's who he was at 10 years old saying okay at wounded knee. 01:11.29 Alan Okay. Well. 01:27.30 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Which was I think about twenty five years later no about fifteen years later maybe so he's in his mid 20 s he is nearby when the massacre starts by the 400 calvary men shooting 300 unarmed women children babies. 01:29.74 Alan HHK. 01:46.43 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ And a couple of old sick guys that were laying and whatever. It is a wagon so nicholas black elk is not far away and he hears the shooting he runs over there with his horse and his rifle. He comes up behind the cavalry men. And sees that he could probably kill 20 of them. But then you know eventually he would die and he said it to himself and um, there've been several books written first person by ghost authors and him I'm not going to die today and he puts his rifle down and he rides around from the back to the front. Where all the bullets are going and he sees a couple of babies or children or something that's not clear to me but he rides into the gunfire and they also had cannons. Um, he rides into the gunfire picks up the kids and rides back out so you have to think. That he would have the majority of the 400 rifles aimed right at him. He's the biggest target and yet um he didn't even get hit that brings into question I I don't know if I can accept this but there were a couple of people. Very powerful sue usually Geronimo Crazy Horse Elk that seemed to have bullet immunity and it's something that some of the native americans said yeah we can do that and they were never seriously heard in battle. Not any one of them. Um. So he rode back out with the babies went and put them down with the moms and people said what's wrong with your clothing and supposedly it was full of bullet holes but he was untouched. Okay, so that's where he was at age 25 he had evolved from being a warrior to a more spiritual person. Okay, now the third event was he went to live I believe in a South Dakota town and there was a huge forest fire 1 year it had not rained in a year they didn't have water to put it out and it was gigantic and I checked out the forest fire really did happen and so. White community came to him and said can you do anything because they did have a good relationship. They really honored black elk and Black Elk did many cures for their people people were terminal and he repaired them. Um. So anyway, he said well I'll try and so he did a Sundance which you know is the most serious ceremony. Um in the real sundance. Um, the participants hang on hooks that are put through their ribs and their collarbones and it's a sacrifice. 04:30.94 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ And it's meant to be respectful and honorable. But it was completely banned. Ah for one hundred and twenty years and it was during this time. It was against the law blackout could have lost his freedom and may have never practiced again. But anyway he went ahead and did it. Along with other participants. The third day they were hanging there. It poured. It didn't rain again for another year but the fire went out and blackout could make there were several events described in his autobiography biographies where. He made it rain on on command just to show that he had power so that's black el the elder black elk. Okay there's ah, a short description in lion's book of Wallace Black elk ah Grandson and I'm just going to paraphrase this because of time but it's in Bill Lyon's book page two nineteen and two twenty for those listeners that might have it and if you don't have it really should get all 3 of these if you're interested. Hearing the other side of the story. Um, so this indian couple I don't know what what kind but it was along the Missouri river ah had lost their boy. He'd been missing for a while you know few days or something they did not think that he was alive. But they at least wanted to find his body and the sheriff had been looking along with divers and everything else and they they couldn't find him. So even though they were christians they came to black elk Wallace black elk and his family to find the boy's body. So as per usual, they did a sacred pipe ceremony that the black elks accepted and then they went to the parents home and they did a ceremony there something like a sweat lodge ceremony. So. The black elks prayed to the spirit helper in this case. Um, who would be a beaver because the beaver would be in the and river and so they started praying and singing songs which is part of ceremony and the um. Beaver spirit came to them I don't know if it was apparition or it's just you know telepathic but he came to him and said sing these four songs if I do not return by the time you're done singing I could not find him. But if I do find him I will return. 07:22.88 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ So um, they're on their fourth song of course and the spirit comes back and so this I'm gonna quote so the beaver spirit or spirit helper said um you sang the 4 songs and I returned. He shook the water off and you could see water tracks on the floor. He said yes I have found him he was buried underneath the stump in the sand. So I dug him out. There is a curve over there and like a wall There is a tree growing there. So the roots stick out of the wall. So I took him there and hung him over the roots to-morrow. go over to that river you go there with the chuampa the sacred pipe then you walk along the river when you hear me you come in that direction you pray and you walk in that direction. You come over to the edge of the water you look down you stand there and look until you see the boy when you signal they will come to pick him up so we thanked him and he left the next day we went over there. We walked along the river. And we heard that sound a swosh of a beavertail hitting the water so we turned around and headed in that direction where the beaver was we continued to pray we walked straight to the edge and looked down so we were standing there and watching and soon. We saw him his arm was hanging over the tree roof just below the water line. So the sheriff was there the entire time and he ran back to the radio pretty soon the boats came they were about a mile and a half away. When they got there. Some people dove into the water and pulled the boy out incredible and witnessed by law enforcement. You know, among other people who were involved you know at the original meeting and and that I can't. 09:17.71 Alan Incredible. 09:30.20 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ See this is non-local knowledge. There's no cause and effect that comes from another reality I guess um, we hear the term altered states of consciousness so often that I I underestimated wow. If you if you could do this even with years of training that both black elks had they weren't born to it like Kenneth Koskro was um, it takes decades to get to this point but boy what if you can get to this point it opens up a lot of possibilities. 10:08.73 Alan So it's in the round of what they call remote viewing. 10:13.12 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Um, now. 10:15.88 Alan Um, give us a ah quick thumbnail of how this discussion and this particular episode relates back to rock art. 10:31.62 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Well, you know that's always on my mind because I'm wandering far off the rock art trail like you know I want people who are interested in rock art to get something out of this because in my opinion we need to move on from a lot of because there's so much more out there. 10:48.38 Alan Correct. 10:49.79 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ That is more useful so in our Lu Marosa survey we ended up with 170 panels in the United States about I'm sorry one hundred and seventy sites about 2250 panels and 1 of the recurring themes. That we saw is exactly a blueprint for um, let me name a specific citation Roland Griffis the godlike experiences with dmt it involves like 10 or 20000 patients over 20 years twenty 5 years It's commonly available on Academia Edu or any other place that you go what we see in Lo Marosa is so much more relevant to like these modern clinical studies as to what people see today and 1 of the most. Common themes is when people are in altered states of consciousness drug-wise or otherwise um, they meet they meet say about 80 to 90% of them on dmt meet an emissary another word for spirit helper. Meet some spiritual being out there who gives them knowledge like where is the lost boy how to heal somebody what to do and the emissary even in people that are not shaman at all often changes their life by giving them insight that they could not. Achieve otherwise and some listeners may be going. That's just the drug induced hallucination to be beat the play I'm sorry what do these beings look like why these be oh yeah, how everything? um, well remember the communication is going on telepathically. But. 12:27.61 Alan Um, and what do these pigs look like what do these bigs look like what do these beings look like and how are they rendered. 12:43.66 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ People say that they often see an angel an animal ah a luminous and being those types of things. It's usually friendly and wants to help and it may take you on ah on travels to show you what it wants to show you. And street lango. It's like going on a trip and it's it's almost funny because they almost always are walking which is how would you portray going on a trip. Um, you know if you were if you had that sensation but you couldn't really do it on. Granite and with a little pigment. You'd have people traveling or flying and you see a lot of that in Lulu Marosa um but you'd see this emissary theme over and over again and some of the examples are so good. Um, some of them were Malcolm Rogers 13:26.23 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 13:43.10 Alan M. 13:43.72 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Discoveries. He didn't catch on to what was going on completely but he found them. Um cofa wilderness and along the Colorado River and East County San Diego I think we have about 15 of these examples that have survived and there's often a contrast. 13:59.95 Alan Are these are these are these Adam are these animal human figures. 14:03.32 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Um, these animal engagements like um I'm sorry the animal are think an animal only here but hybrids are shakes. Um, sometimes if if you mean it's still difficult to hear you. But if therere. 14:08.81 Alan Are these animal human hybrids or figures sometimes. 14:21.39 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ If you mean do they have animal characteristics. Okay, yeah, all the emissaries detected yes and and at least for the kumii and you would know beyond that ah animals were the first shaman and so that's why. 14:21.44 Alan Are the yeah are the emissaries depicted as animal humans. 14:33.28 Alan Sure right. 14:39.60 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ They're honored so much and and treated as such as the original shaman went back or you know transitioned into animals. 14:39.94 Alan Yeah, yeah. 14:46.58 Alan Um, well, it's ah it's interesting because you one of the one of the more prominent papers on great basin theology or religion desert west is done by Goss and. He talks about the layered universe and talks about the animals associated with particular layers of the universe and he calls them shamanistic animal deities and they're they're represented as sort of the. Kingpins of other animals as well. So it could be a bighorn sheep. It could be a eagle. It could be a coyote. It could be a wolf. It could be ah the the serpent. So but. 15:32.52 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Her. 15:42.25 Alan But each one of those figures are of course associated with a different layer of the universe and a color so it's It's very interesting to think or deposit and in some cases. There's the cartography of. 15:59.13 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ And then. 16:01.36 Alan Religion expressed on rock card. 16:07.60 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Um, yeah, and I think I think they're still that way. 16:08.38 Alan You see what I'm saying. Yeah yes I do to? Well, that's all we have time for you. You want you want to sign off Don and tell ah our audience something to whet their whistle. But. 16:27.60 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Um, well all and I are working on this third book for Lo Moreosa where we go into a lot of these things and and many more things that strengthen the case that the native americans are a gifted people and the hope is that they'll be. Ah, better relationship between or when I say a more unifying relationship between the native americans and science and so that's the hope and so I don't know I'm working as fast as I can but my old brain. Ah. 16:56.92 Alan Amen I love it. But Don you're doing a you're doing a great job. Okay god bless you you rock art podcasters out there and see on the flip flop next week for episode 81 god bless. 17:03.30 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Is not as good as it used to. Um, thank you. 17:15.63 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Um, okay bye.