00:01.50 archpodnet All right welcome to the show. Everyone again if you are hearing my voice that means I Chris Webster and interviewing Dr Alan darffinkel so Alan welcome to your show. 00:12.35 Alan Ah, pleasure. It's always a pleasure to ah reconnect with you Chris and we yeah these ah shows of ours always sort of go in an organic manner and and end up being more interesting and as I talk sometimes it's the None time I've heard it. 00:31.41 archpodnet Ah, indeed indeed. Yeah so. 00:31.64 Alan As Well as you have yeah I but we always have some interesting conversations. It's educational and and we share some of the ah deep time reflections that we have about Rockard and Archeology anthropology and. Even indigenous religion. 00:50.73 archpodnet Indeed indeed all right? Well you know the last episode we talked about a book a publication. You've got coming out with None other authors and I mean there's so much to cover in that we wanted to at least for the none part of this show talk about that a little bit more. So. Um, let's pick up I guess kind of where we left off by none talking given an overview of the book for the people who haven't listened to the last episode and then we'll start talking about some of the I guess symbolism and the the what does it all mean stuff that we didn't really have a chance to get into at the end of it. So let's start by. Giving a quick synopsis of what the book is about again for people who haven't listened to the last episode. 01:27.47 Alan Yeah, well let me remind everybody that what we're going to talk about is petroglyphs these are rock drawings that occur in the koso range on the western edge of the mojave desert in the great basin in Eastern California and this is an area that has a tremendous array of rock art. It's one of the greatest concentrations in the entire western hemisphere and the particular or the specialized subject of my study in this book is the projectile point petroglyphs. So these are. Petoglyphs that actually depict dart points and in our last episode we talked about what kind of dart points those were they were elco or humboldt series points that date to the middle archaic. We would say let's say 2000 bc about a d one or shortly thereafter and what I had mentioned was besides depicting these projectile points and dating them. We um, we have them accompanying decorated animal-human figures and that's rather interesting and. 02:41.37 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 02:43.10 Alan Has always been something that intrigued me so that's kind of where we where we got to we begin talking a lot about dating of rock art and the way in which we approach that issue. So remember all that. 02:54.96 archpodnet Right? right? Yeah I do and that's where you know it starts to get interesting because you know one of the one of the things that I thought was interesting and in fact, actually had a conversation with a colleague a few days after we recorded that. Ah, they were finding elco projectile points in the Eastern Mojave or around that area somewhere. Actually you know what I think it was up closer to mammoth now that I'm saying that and ah and he was like he was like hey do alco points really come out this far and he's like I didn't actually know that I'm not sort of sure about that I was like well. 03:18.61 Alan Um, sure. 03:28.19 archpodnet As a matter of fact, we just recorded an episode about Petroglys being drawn with you know elco points down in the Koso range and I was like that's you know that's pretty far. It's like good a good indicator of. 03:39.37 Alan Yeah. 03:42.42 archpodnet You know at least how far the people who had knowledge of these points traveled and presumably the points themselves in that technology. So it's interesting looking at that transmission of knowledge and data and how that works. 03:54.33 Alan And um, it's nice to be working in the great basin because the projectile point styles are rather distinct and there's been a lot of studies to identify them and operationally define them both by their morphology. 04:10.97 archpodnet Um, me. 04:12.70 Alan Their attributes their metrics and then also their distribution and the dating and in the of course as you're well aware in the western part of the great basin. We have a short chronology for for these elco series points and so we can pretty much pinpoint them for the most part that most of them. 04:28.85 archpodnet Um, yeah. 04:32.14 Alan Would date to a rather limited time sp compared to the central or Eastern Great basin where they endure for a far longer period of time which makes them less temporally sensitive. Yeah so and and what and what. 04:43.47 archpodnet Um, yeah, indeed indeed. 04:51.80 Alan But we really had going for us besides the depiction and the analysis of the point forms per se was that we independently were able to date the glyphs using Portable X-ray fluorescence on those glyphs and had several dates that appeared. Consistent with their chronology and so that was nice to have a cross correlation. Be able to pinpoint what we're looking at. 05:18.38 archpodnet And what is those? what is that day range. 05:21.51 Alan Well again, it's like you know two thousand b c to about a d one. So what's what between four thousand and two thousand years ago would be about the right span for that for the alco series now they have ah a doppelgan or a you know sort of a. 05:29.35 archpodnet Yeah. 05:39.15 Alan Ah, kind of an alco point. That's a little bit thicker bigger and looks like alcoves that sort of merge into pinto points which are the earlier examples. So it is possible that some of the earliest expressions. Of depictions depictions of Elcos might actually be some of those you know stray stray points that began somewhat earlier in the pinto period or a little leg period as it's called so anyway. Anyways. 06:08.68 archpodnet Um, yeah, that. 06:13.29 Alan But if when we've and when we've dated them and when we've found them with burials. They've all been within that particular time range I mentioned the middle archaic between 2000 bc and about a d one although Humboldt which is depicted as well. Kind of goes a little further and overlaps the beginning of the development and introduction of bow and arrow points row spring and eastgate points and that begins about a d one but that shrine with the bighorn sheep skull on it that had a humble point. At its base was dated to about a d 500 so they were still doing their big horn sheep ceremonialism and ritual and it was still a ah probably a central part of their religious cosmology. 06:56.73 archpodnet Okay. 07:09.55 archpodnet And and how far out does this I guess style of Imagery extend like where else has this kind of stuff been found because I think we talked about the American Southwest yeah. 07:17.64 Alan the the so the so the so the yeah so the so the sheep-centric um you know, ah Petrolyph and Pictograph is is all over the west and it's also of course. 07:33.32 archpodnet Yeah. 07:36.20 Alan Part of the part of the great mural rock art where we have depictions of bighorn sheep that are about None to 2 times the size of the actual animals. So and then as well you you see, but you see that throughout the entire great basin and also throughout the great basin. There are scattered examples. 07:44.27 archpodnet You hear. 07:55.25 Alan Of depictions of projectile points in the Eastern Mojave Desert at Newberry cave. There's a depiction of an alco point that's painted in green pigment and that. 08:02.97 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:14.40 Alan That dates right? there to about I would say about None as well they've ah they've dated. Of course they dated the split twig figurines and so that's a ah, good example as well. But the depiction of projectile points. Also occurs. 08:18.56 archpodnet Fred. 08:33.56 Alan And Mexico proper and so there are petrolyphs that have quite a plethora of you know a large number of images that are depicting what they say is um, middle archaic projectile points and in South Texas you have that shumla. Tradition where they're they're turning the projectile points upside down and making them look like human beings anthropomorphs and those are all all throughout that whole area and those also date to this middle archaic period. 09:00.14 archpodnet Ah. 09:09.24 Alan Seems that seems to be the time when there was a you know the peak period of abundance of perhaps larger arodactyls. You know game Big game animals be they bighorn sheep deer or antelope and there appears to have been. Some sort of what has been called a hunting religion that was expressed in many areas throughout the southwest and probably in the great basin as well. 09:39.55 archpodnet Okay, nice, nice. All right, Um, and and what about what about further out I I mean I'm just I think I recovered that I'm trying you losing my turn of thought here. Um Samby yeah. 09:52.62 Alan Ah, ah, ah so around the world is that okay can I jump jump in so what 1 thing I've done which is interesting. You talk about around the world. Um, in the Ukraine there is a scholar. 09:58.58 archpodnet Yeah, go ahead going to keep on. 10:11.41 Alan Um, who I've published with both in um Russian and in English about the depictions and use of sort of these horned headdresses both deer and for me bighorned sheep and those were. 10:23.93 archpodnet Ah. 10:30.76 Alan You know, very popular and also played a part in the depictions of of these Shamans Medicine Persons Native American doctors. But also ah you know figures of priests and other. Powerful individuals that wore these headdresses so there is that parallel there and then of course um, one of my colleagues has been all over the world taking ah cinematography videoography for a film. On the depictions of bighorn sheep and large large artudactyls horned artidactyls that are depicted all throughout the world and I think we had we had him interviewed early on in this series talking about what what he has discovered. 11:22.94 archpodnet Mother. 11:27.80 Alan All over the world with respect to this imagery of bighorned sheep and horned individuals and the hunting using of dogs etc and how that became so symbolic and so embedded in so many different cultures throughout the world. He found this in the altai in Siberia in Asia and many parts of the Americas as well. 11:55.15 archpodnet Okay, nice, nice all right? Well I think well let's take a break right? there now that we've got a good synopsis and a little bit more and then we'll come back and really dive into this on the other side of the break back in a minute.