00:00.00 archpodnet 1 go ahead and. 00:02.00 alan Welcome back everybody this is Dr Alan Garfinkel with the rock art podcast episode 89 and we're talking about virtual reality and vr technology and how it applies to the study of rock art. But also the study of. Cultural heritage and using it and applying it in creative ways to enhance visitor experiences to these sites remotely and Eric Hanson of blue planet is one of those cutting edge artisans that are using this technology. Eric where do you think this technology is going in the future and what part do you play and what will be your emphasis and hyperfocus in terms of the niche that you're carving for your own profession. 00:59.38 Eric Hanson Well, um, yeah, there's actually I'd say that's answered maybe in 2 areas one is the technical and one is kind of the personal maybe and what I can maybe I'll start with the personal I'll end with the technical that. Personal thing is the other project I wanted to make mention is that I'm now working with a buddhist organization in the bay area and ah they had this is dharma college and there's actually a number of interrelated organizations up there. And they've invited me earlier this year to join them in bodgaya in India to document the bodi tree and the temple that exists as part of that called bogaya temple and in any case, um, what we're embarking to do this is kind of an exciting thing I think is that. Um, we will if you are a buddhist. There's 8 sites in India that you would frequent as a pilgrimage so we're going to offer basically pilgrimage ah visitation virtually through the acquisition of these sacred sites and um. And ah, let you be whether you're as they call it a light buddha which may just want to learn more advanced meditation technique or if you're a true buddhist that would you know be embarking on these pilgrimages. You could potentially have an experience or maybe a. 02:25.65 Eric Hanson Ah, pilgrimage experience virtually and if you don't have the wherewithal or the health or the finances or what have you to do this during your lifetime. So. It's an interesting ah challenge I think but the thing that I find most stimulating about this is it. It kind of begs a question of what how how. How deep of an experience. Can you create in vr and can you represent the sacred in vr so I just I mean it's ah it's an incredible challenge and I don't know the answer I don't have ah an answer for that yet. But I'm I'm certainly up for the the investigation of that. And um, so yeah, ah we did I did ah you know my most monumental capture yet of this ah temple I shot 60000 images in about 2 or 3 days of it and um, all the different kind of ah pilgrimage functions that one would do as far as making offerings and so forth. And I'm not a religious person or a buddhist by any stretch but it was but I've always been fascinated by by that you know just the artwork and kind of the the nature of of that faith. So in any case this I think that but that will be and this is I think. You know because rock art coming back to rock art on this It's similar thing we have a personal connection to it. We feel that there's ah you know a sense of meaning and deeper depth to what we look at I think that's a common bond for all of us that enjoy rock art. 03:56.16 Eric Hanson And um, so again, if we so so what that says is what is the experience that we have why do we? Why do we go to great lengths to visit these locations. Why do we go to great lengths to try to understand them and it's you know I think there may be some similarity with. You know what? what buddhists may be up to so it's kind of like we do our own pilgrimage at these sites in a sense. 04:15.37 alan And I think that we yeah and I think that we all you know have a hole in our hearts that is looking for a means of connecting you know some so people call it a higher power the Divine. The. Creator and and and is experiencing something where we connect and feel this essence of timelessness and capture. Maybe a taste of the supernatural. Um. And maybe that's why a lot of these television shows that are you know cutting edge talking about many mysteries seem to be so Captivating. Do you think there's something to that. 05:02.73 Eric Hanson That depends on the show I Oh you just you're not thinking about the show is proper. Yeah, okay got you? Um, yeah, well. 05:03.54 alan No no and and I know I I'm I'm talking I know that no no, but I mean about about about about people. Why do why? do people want to visit these extraordinary sacred sites in the volume that they do. 05:19.57 Eric Hanson Right? right? now I Yeah I agree Well that's kind of what I'm I have no answer I'm suggesting that um that you know if you if you are in other words, if you are going to try to recreate these experiences virtually. 05:23.20 alan Go ahead. 05:34.93 alan Yes. 05:36.10 Eric Hanson I think you need to ah think about why we do it? What's the nature of it. What do we? What do we leave with what do we gain from it by by you know, doing all the activities we do with Rutcart and and then how would you embody that in ah in a virtual experience now. In ah blue planet I don't I don't answer that I I want it to be a personal you know connection that that one would make and I like I say some of that is is a dissemination of background information but largely I just want people to appreciate it much like we all do. Ah, directly right? and not color that but but anyway so that's I think 1 thing that I I think a lot about with all this is like how do how can we make this experience something meaningful and profound as opposed to just electronic entertainment and um and that's you know. 06:27.99 alan Exactly and I and I think it's I think this is timely to talk about because you know I was we just had ah ah a board meeting for the California Rock Guard Foundation and 1 of the things that came up in terms of a trend or the evolution of this whole profession of. 06:29.51 Eric Hanson Yeah, yeah. 06:45.52 alan Call it archaeology cultural Resources management. Whatever historic preservation is there's a meeting of the minds. There's now a beginning sense that indigenous native peoples are taking a much more vigilant and active role. And it's being recognized and by doing so we're attempting to sort of dismantle our structure of knowing and sort of downplay this evolution of colonialism and try to embrace a more profound understanding. What it is. We're looking at and experiencing and dealing with and that has a lot of implications for the way in which we we try to preserve protect conserve repair study research all those things and much more does that make any sense to you. 07:44.35 Eric Hanson Yeah, absolutely and um, the thing that all another topic I lectured on today was talking about the nature of immersive media right? So and in other words, immersive media. We all, we all ah believe that it had could. 07:51.83 alan Okay. 07:58.53 Eric Hanson Potentially have more power or affectation on us than say conventional flat Cinema right? That's the supposition that one makes with ah with immersive media in whatever form. It is um so and that's and you know it's funny because I always I Always think about this and it's like well. 08:04.21 alan Yes, yes. 08:17.57 Eric Hanson You know if we go back to say the conservation ah of the the national parks and the western lands in the 30 s with ansll Adams and Elliot Porter and all the great photographers. You know they they change public policy simply from erecting a. Ah, photo ah display on in the halls of congress and that apparently led to fundamental conservation law in that time and that was certainly from the power of their artwork right? So my my point and I I'd say this to my students a lot. 08:41.24 alan Well well name. 08:49.31 Eric Hanson If we think we're so great with all this technology Then what have we really done with it like what hearts and minds have we changed and what can we show is concrete you know, ah evidence that this was more than entertainment right? because this this could be a powerful tool. 09:02.18 alan Right. 09:05.61 Eric Hanson And we all think it's very powerful and ah you know we all believe it is but but it really is kind of what you do with this. You know it's the old thing of you know Tech is only you know it's only meaningful for you know what? you do not what it is and so that's again and I have no answer for this other than it's just it's something it needs I think constant. 09:24.65 alan So in the future. So in the in the future. Maybe maybe so in the future. Perhaps when we go to the theater. There'll be probably immersive ah theater centers that we can sort of involve ourselves. 09:25.39 Eric Hanson Examining with us. 09:40.91 Eric Hanson It's ah it's it's it's it's very so it's very strange Alan that you just said that because that's a perfect lead in to my next note that I wanted to cover which is another thing I'm involved with currently is. 09:41.28 alan In this kind of technology. It's being done already. 09:48.55 alan Please. 09:53.26 Eric Hanson Ah, so we all know about the rise of led displays whether it's our flatscreen tvs or you know obnoxious signage around town or whatever. There's been all this advancement in led well um, that has now ah transferred over into immersive cinema namely full dome. Ah, so planetarium domes used to be projected with digital projectors. Um are now being replaced with led panels at just beginning and I'm involved with a company called cosmc OSM that's released that if you're interested in this. You should really take a look It's yeah esdotcom slash dome x. 10:12.30 alan Yes. 10:31.26 Eric Hanson So domex. Yeah, es.com/doex and they have ah a stunning ah embedded video which will show you how revolutionary this is anyway I'm in the process of trying to get one of these ah you know for our use at Usc and but the other. Announcement on this is they've just announced in variety last week that they will be putting one up in Los Angeles next to Sophi Stadium the brand new big stadium we have and um so here's the thing I've already got pitches put together for them for all kinds of ah cultural heritage and. And ah, you know, kind of more natural history. Ah programming not that that necessarily is what they're putting it up for but I'm hoping that there will be space for us to do that type of content. Um in such a venue but it's a it's one of the most stunning things I've seen in my lifetime tech. Technically technology wise and it just I've been there a few times they have a demo center in Salt Lake City and every time I go there I say yeah, by the way I left my John the floor somewhere. Do you still have it. You know it's just it's just a remarkable thing to see and if you go to that webpage. You'll see what I'm describing. But. 11:33.80 alan Um. 11:37.59 alan Exactly So what is what is it? What? what is it like to experience to experience it. What is it? What are you seeing? where are you and what do where do you look? What do you see? What do you feel? give us a ah word picture. 11:48.91 Eric Hanson It is the it's 10 times the brightness of conventional cinema um, it's so bright that it shadows you and bays you in the light of the scene and then it is 8 k resolution. 11:53.51 alan Okay. 11:58.89 alan Okay. 12:04.38 Eric Hanson It fills every rodden cone in your eye and it's ah it's just stunningly immersive I mean it's a close it really almost truly is the holodeck of you know science fiction lore it is absolute I mean and it's as profound as vr but more so because. You know vr has resolution limitation. Also the problem with Vr is it has a very narrow field of view. So. It's kind of like you're looking through the world through ski oggables and I just hate that about vr but this is like you're present in this scene you you just feel amazingly transported. It is a remarkable thing. 12:28.16 alan Right. 12:39.52 Eric Hanson Anyway, long story short is we all in this field should be thinking about how to ah, take advantage of this new media that's coming out Ellen and there's also the medicine square garden sphere which is opening in Las Vegas next year and that's that's the world's greatest. You know screen ever. 12:54.83 alan Ah. 12:58.76 Eric Hanson Devised by humanity and that's a three hundred foot diameter led sphere ah seating 20000 people so so this is some pretty major things on the theatrical side that's coming um so and I big money and I also. 13:02.54 alan Sure. Well. 13:10.30 alan Pretty big money pretty pretty big money behind this obviously. 13:17.13 Eric Hanson I hate you know nothing at Imax I've worked on several limax films. But um, it just this is the next level up from that so that's 1 thing and then one last thing I don't know how much time we have but they're thing it's going to affect us all in a huge way in all areas in our life I'm just convinced of it. 13:18.87 alan Yeah. 13:26.29 alan We have time. 13:34.66 Eric Hanson The rise of Ai and I'm not going to go over all these you know myriad of ways that it will affect us but it will affect us. Um, well actually remains to be seen. It's a great discussion. So in fact, you should probably have a discussion sometime on this podcast about the implications of Ai for the practice of archaeology in rock art. 13:48.10 alan Um, yeah, sure. 13:53.79 Eric Hanson Um, which would be a fascinating one because you know because there's veracity needed for archaeology and how could you but the the thing is how could you use Ai to extrapolate or you know, kind of project or there's there's going to be some remarkable things. But anyway. Most immediately. There's a new type of capture technology and it's advancing rapidly called ah neural ah radiance fields and the the acronym for this is is any rf nerf if you remember the old Nerf Toys and nerf stuff. 14:25.40 alan Ah, yeah, nerve. Yeah Neural Radiance fields. Okay, and what does it do. 14:30.60 Eric Hanson Ner it's ah near any rfneural radiance fields um, all I have to do is look it up online and look at some examples. It's basically you can take your cell phone whereas I have to take hundreds or maybe thousands of images of my sixty megapixel camera. This one you can take your cell phone take a dozen images and you can almost get a better result of it. Um, and it can be processed. You know right? there on your phone. It's a remarkable thing and it it will revolutionize data capture for archaeology I guarantee it Mark my words. 14:47.90 alan Um, ah. 14:51.52 alan Wow. 15:02.85 alan Oh yeah, it sounds amazing. 15:05.53 Eric Hanson Um, it's just remarkable and it captures light properties as well. So you get speculatularity. You get whatever you know, like more of a volumetric sense of lighting. Um, so it's it's really the next level next shin thing and it's coming really fast. It's still kind of just an early you know demo phase. But. The toolset isn't arrived commercially but at any day now and because it's using Ai to kind of re to fill in the gaps if you will um from you know a sparse capture and so anyway so it's going to affect all of us that are. 15:32.10 alan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:41.53 Eric Hanson Are doing praxing photogrammetry in a in a very profound way How soon I don't know but but but something to be looked at absolutely that. Yeah. 15:45.37 alan And try it. Yeah and and try and trying to record rock sites so you can imagine Eric it's been a. It's been a joy absolute joy and I'll ah I'll check in regularly and I'm sure we'll be doing this again. 16:00.76 Eric Hanson Fantastic my pleasure Alan. 16:02.82 alan God Bless you all in in rock art Podcast Archaeology Podcast land see on the flip flop gang.