00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome everybody to the rock art podcast I'm Chris Webster and if you're hearing my voice that means it's just Allen and I today and we're going to talk about something that we've talked about actually for a lot of a lot of episodes. This has been mentioned indexical animals but we're going to talk about a couple of. Ah, specific indexical animalss on this show. So Alan why don't you just start out by telling us what an indexical animal is to get us ah kicked off again. Yeah. 00:30.53 Alan Um, kick kick it off So It's it appears that cultures around the world have a um pre-literate cultures in the main but also literate cultures. Um. Have a very special relationship with animals and they and this relationship with animals allows them to depict them in their art forms and also to have them imbibed. Sort of ensconced with tremendous meaning many many levels of meaning go into these images of animals and they can mean ah, many things and certain animals are especially powerful and are recognized throughout the world. 01:16.67 archpodnet Oh. 01:20.62 Alan What I call an indexical animal. It's indexical in the sense that it it almost becomes a signature icon or also sometimes a shamanistic ancestor deity something that is all powerful and influential and we think of. Think of this sometimes as those large creatures those horned animals like ah, a big horned sheep or ah, a Ram or a bull or or something along those lines sometimes a bear but um, other times these animals are not. 01:43.69 archpodnet Ah. 01:50.94 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 01:57.75 Alan As ferocious or as I would you put it as as overpowering or or um, monstrous as as we imagine and so sometimes some of the animals are. 02:08.35 archpodnet Okay. 02:16.52 Alan Magical creatures or creatures that even we we might get a chuckle out of or be impressed by and that that they're beautiful and and they they tend to have a rather positive meaning and one that is more in the. And the line of sometimes majestic but sometimes otherwise related to their their habits and their habitat that's something that I have culled from a famous book by Judith Vander talking about animals and their relationship to. 02:41.41 archpodnet Um, okay. 02:52.65 Alan People's minds their cognitive essence there I would so think about in the cognitive universe that we we sort of put together and try to understand the world is a term called cosmology which simply means worldview and all cultures have a worldview and. 03:03.69 archpodnet Um. 03:11.79 Alan Ah, when we have ah also ah a deity or a theology a religion of sorts. We sometimes think about things using animal metaphors animal meanings animal symbology and um, you see this a lot. And rock art. Um, and those people that have experienced rock art all over the world. Um, it's one of those joys or one of those magnificent experiences when one sees an animal displayed on a rock art painting I think back to the. Earliest rock guard with those magnificent caves in Europe and France and otherwise which has these amazing creatures and these almost ah almost photorealistic panels of paintings that are tens of thousands of years old and when those were of course discovered. People could not believe that our ancestors were so artistic or able to capture in their imagination and on the on the stones such ah, realistic and vital images you've seen them right. 04:21.77 archpodnet So oh yeah, yeah, absolutely and you know depending on where you're at in the world too. You do see when you're looking especially at rock art because that is the that is the you know the oldest and and most concrete so to speak thing that we have from the prehistoric world. 04:27.39 Alan Go ahead. 04:41.22 archpodnet A lot of the other things they may have done you know may not stick around. Although you do see stuff in say cave environments. There have been things found in in Nevada caves like lovelock cave and things like that where there was duck decoys and we we call them decoys because we're used to seeing them like that and maybe they were used as decoys. But maybe these ducks were. 04:44.85 Alan Get and you know right. 05:00.77 archpodnet Indexical animals and I just wanted to make the point and maybe you can talk on this when we say you know this is the rock art podcast and we're going to talk about some images in rock art and you say indexxical animals. This isn't unique to rock art. This is unique to the culture or society that we're talking about this is an animal that is important to them. 05:00.88 Alan Um, yeah. 05:18.63 archpodnet In many ways and they've depicted that in probably many ways some of which we can see today some of which we can't I would assume. 05:26.99 Alan Yeah I think that's very important and very significant Chris and I'm glad you brought that up that these are animals and I and I know I've mentioned this in the past in one of the podcasts but the famous ah french thinker philosopher. Anthropologist coined a phrase where he said well these animals were good to eat but also good to think and so and so that was Levi Strauss who said that famous structural functional as founder and. His his ideas were bang on they. Um, when you begin to pierce the veil and think about this. Um, we're dealing with ah people that had a ah different mindset. They ah listened to the world. 06:04.53 archpodnet Yeah. 06:22.14 Alan They were not ruled by technology or the written word but more by sound auditory sound and and the the visible world the natural world and I think that that takes us back into a whole different. 06:34.86 archpodnet Um. 06:41.27 Alan Plane a whole different mode of existence and a mode of kind of ah the existential universe of trying to understand rock art. Um, my friend Eve Ewing who's in her mid 80 s is one of those. Amazing creatures that watches the rock art and looks and peers and thinks and doesn't glance but looks deeply and studies and restudies the same panels over and over again for what they communicate to her and eventually they they tell her a story or they give her. 07:15.74 archpodnet Ah. 07:19.10 Alan Information about what they're trying to convey and that's ah, that's part of a story. Um, it's a way. Ah, it's a way of looking. It's a way of thinking. It's a way of perceiving. Um. 07:27.27 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:35.78 Alan When we see rock art it was it was in some cases meant to be viewed and it was evocative. It was it evoked emotions and and sensibilities and it produced a message that was important to the people and some and that message and that message was powerful. 07:42.28 archpodnet Um. 07:49.13 archpodnet Okay. 07:55.32 Alan Was something that these are what we call out ah outdoor churches and the ah the um these were visual Shorthand this was ah a way of communicating in a prayerful way and. Letting the deities the gods the universe know of what the requests might be or what their what they need and want and what their yearnings were and what their feelings were and what their stories were and all all the above and more. 08:30.45 archpodnet Okay, so on this episode as I mentioned we're going to talk about 2 specific indexical animals. Um, what is the area before we get to those animals. What is the area that we're talking about here where. These the people and the animals in question would have lived. 08:47.90 Alan Well, the second one is Pan Americas it's throughout North America it's the eagle and the eagle of course must be considered an indexical animal and throughout the Americas I would say many if not all. 08:57.50 archpodnet Um. 09:06.89 Alan Native people revered and connected with this primary benefactor as it was they saw that it was the largest bird of the air and had certain attributes that were very. 09:21.43 archpodnet Um. 09:25.21 Alan Ah, prestigious and evocative and there was ah a sense of a connection with the supernatural and with the divine because of course these were birds of the highest realm. 09:41.27 archpodnet True. 09:43.60 Alan And that's where the gods live and that's where the deities are and that's that's where we want to be if we want to deal with some of these higher order theological questions and then the other one the second the second one. 09:51.23 archpodnet Okay, and what's the up. Yeah, what's the other bird. 10:01.80 Alan Is one that you people laugh at and that's the quail. The little the little tiny quail that we see and we surprise and they run out in front of us with their little babies following and they have those funny little top knots on their heads and people just laugh and think they're the. 10:09.24 archpodnet Oh. 10:19.66 Alan Funniest things beside the pecos. So and believe it or not. There's a lot to say and a lot to know about them quail um I've been studying them and thinking about them for I'd say nyon 50 years 10:21.33 archpodnet That's right? ah. 10:36.41 archpodnet Wow! yeah. 10:39.15 Alan So um, some of the some of the questions have answers and probably others I'll I'll never know in this side of the side of the ethereal plane. But um, yeah I Yeah I have a few things to say about quail and and about to. 10:48.82 archpodnet Oh. 10:58.35 Alan Those birds of the higher ground the eagles and that and that isn't the band you guys. That's right. 11:02.56 archpodnet Well I think ah, that's right, that's right, all right? Well let's ah why don't we go ahead and take a break right there and then when we come back, we'll spend 1 segment talking about. The eagle and maybe we'll spend the other segment talking about the coil because there's a lot to say about both of these. So let's go ahead and do that on the other side of the break back in a minute. 11:23.82 Alan Thanks.