00:01.86 archpodnet That's right, welcome back to the rockard podcast episode 91 this is Chris Webster and I'm interviewing your host alan garffinal and we're talking about indexical animals. We talked about quail in the last one ah just a ah, really good background on the importance of the quail and. I'm just wondering when when you were going through that you know a lot of your like primary experience because you've worked there for you know forty Plus years is in the koso range in that area. But of course you know ranges of these types of ideas extend a long ways out. Um, how much do you know about the. 00:28.71 Alan Yeah. 00:39.27 archpodnet Quail in other cultures because the quail is not unique, really to anyone at least it's not anymore I don't know what it was a few hundred years ago if the quail was more localized to maybe that region or if the quail really was all over North America because I'm pretty sure the quail is pretty much everywhere at this point. Um, ah, we just saw some of the other day. And and we saw some up in Canada and it's just they're all over the place. 01:02.80 Alan 1 of the things I studied or learned was in Mesoamerican Mexico the quail was a ah ah bird that the commoners used for an offering they would sacrifice the quail and that was. Considered to be part of their offering ritual that they provided to their deities which surprised me actually I I don't know why that is that way or what that was all about the other thing that surprised me of course is when you think of. 01:20.94 archpodnet Okay. 01:26.38 archpodnet Sure. 01:36.98 Alan Mesoerica you think of of one of the primary or top- level deities calledquetzel kotddle right? and quetzel waddle is sort of this animal-human figure. 01:46.22 archpodnet This. 01:54.85 Alan That is called a a feathered serpent and the ketzel is ah is a plume. It's a green bird with a plume. Um, and it you know sits on the heads of the snake. Well, that's exactly the same phenomenon. 01:57.29 archpodnet Right is. 02:12.90 Alan That I see in the cosos with these quail plumes adorning snakes now now these Ketzel plumes are enormous compared to the little quail plumes but conceptually. 02:22.28 archpodnet Um. 02:27.64 archpodnet Friend. 02:31.48 Alan And metaphorically they seem to have much of the same function to identify the prestigious nature. The leadership nature the topmost sort of concatenation on. Um. On these figures and it's rather interesting to me I um I didn't really think that much about this until I began to be steeped in sort of the mystery of Mesoerica and sort of seeing some of the parallels between the. 02:53.19 archpodnet And. 03:07.44 archpodnet Ah. 03:09.44 Alan Western Great basin and and that kind of look again. So I think birds are are are some of the some of the key figures that we ah think about and are mysterious to us. They're they're quite. 03:28.97 Alan They they are sound but they're also you know figures of the air. So they have a bit of mystery and magic to them. 03:34.68 archpodnet Well yeah, and you know and speaking of that let's transition to the eagle like we were trying go to talk about because unlike the quail which like you said is is more of a ground bird I mean it does fly out. It'll do like you know, short little hops if if startled. 03:39.67 Alan On. 03:54.67 archpodnet But the eagle just like huge big bird soaring above the sky I mean it's an indexical animal now to americans because it's the symbol of the United States of America. Yeah yeah. 04:00.55 Alan Now Yes, and it's the simple. Yeah, and so it it was this and it was the symbol of magic and power and strength. 04:15.69 archpodnet Um. 04:19.24 Alan Ah, to native Americans all across the fruited fruited plain. Um, the Eagle became an indexical animal for the great basin pay shoone for a variety of reasons. Um. 04:20.16 archpodnet Right. 04:37.85 Alan 1 reason of course is its size. Its visual acuity as a hunter which is very impressive and also because it was sort of the lord of the sky and the sky being a. 04:41.62 archpodnet Ah. 04:54.97 Alan Again, Ah, a mysterious place a connection to that divine that set of deities the the power and Supernatural world. Um, another thing which is which was surprising to me. 05:12.51 Alan And I've mentioned this before in some of our discussions is they associate the Eagle with the color white Now they're not white birds they're blackbirds. They're dark, they're brown. 05:18.17 archpodnet Ah. 05:31.10 Alan But when they're immature they have white feathers on their wings and on their breasts when they're immature and what the native people would do was they would capture them from the nests and put them in cages. 05:38.33 archpodnet Ah. 05:50.70 Alan And plucked their feathers the white feathers because they felt that they were powerful and when they got too big. They'd let them out and they'd take to the sky and get back to their natural you know landscape. Um. 06:10.78 Alan The um, the other association of the eagle of course is ah quite a intimate one with what they call the Thunderbird. 06:15.93 archpodnet Um, more. 06:25.93 archpodnet All right. 06:27.62 Alan And not the ah car but the but the bird of the mythological bird of the air that brings the rain and the thunder and the lightning and this was supposed to be a bird that was even bigger than the eagle and just by its flapping of its wings. Was creating these electrical force and the sound of the thunder and bringing on the rain and we see that depicted and pecked into the rocks. Um, occasionally not frequently, but occasionally um in the cosos. And then ah out there near death valley near Cline Valley in 1 of the driest places on earth there's a site I haven't been to it but I've seen many many photographs of this magnificent place. There's a a volcanic. 07:06.85 archpodnet Oh. 07:24.36 Alan Layer of ah pumiceite or some sort of you know, very easily crafted stone and they have no less than 8 depictions of these thunderbirds that are probably. 07:36.37 archpodnet Ah. 07:43.66 Alan 2 three four feet tall and they're all there in their magnificence right? there with their spread wings and and very delicately etched and I'm sure that this related back to the concept of fertility and bringing on the rain. 07:59.26 archpodnet Church. 08:02.57 Alan Because besides those thunderbirds there are a lot of vulva form motifs and ah depictions of female figures with the enlarged or embellished female genitalia. 08:16.77 archpodnet Ah. 08:21.53 Alan Right? there on the rocks in association with those thunderbirds. So if we're looking to live and develop sustainability. We got to have water for food and we got to have life in us to produce Progeny children. 08:23.84 archpodnet Ah. 08:40.85 Alan That will ah replace us when we pass and isn't that kind of the same thing we have. We're dealing with right now got to have water and we got to have got to have people. Um, right now there's ah. 08:43.60 archpodnet Right. 08:51.61 archpodnet Ah, that's the. 08:58.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:59.15 Alan Ah, ah, they call it the demographic winter in much of the world. They're worried about their numbers not increasing but decreasing you're aware of this right over in Europe and Japan and Russia. Ah. 09:12.00 archpodnet Oh yeah. 09:17.50 Alan The numbers of people are not increasing. They're decreasing because as they even in China for that matter. Um, they when you develop an economy and become industrialized. There's a trend to produce less and less children. 09:37.36 Alan And with less and less children. Ultimately, you're not even reproducing the number of people that you need to replace those who have passed and that's what's happened anyways. 09:37.97 archpodnet Um. 09:47.69 archpodnet Right? right? Yeah and you know, go back to the ah go back to the Eagle and and the the thunderbird it made me think because I grew up in Washington State Specifically western Washington state 09:52.91 Alan Um, yes, ah sure sure. 10:01.37 archpodnet Yeah, lots of first off lots of Eagles there. But second you know when we learned you know in my my very rudimentary classes on Washington State history and prehistory. You know the native american groups up there. There's totem poles all over the place. In fact, you see totem poles in shopping centers sometimes where they're just you know they just. 10:09.26 Alan Yeah. 10:18.72 Alan Um. 10:19.63 archpodnet Just have a totem pull up because that's that's just what you do and a lot of times at the very top of the totem pole Yeah is an eagle or some other bird of Prey but like usually an eagle is depicted and I think they used like hawk and and other things as well. But yeah, definitely very. 10:23.97 Alan It's part of the signature of the people is. 10:32.18 Alan Sure Yeah, the top most predator the the most prestigious the ah top most would be the also the most powerful the most. 10:36.32 archpodnet Ah, very prominent where I grew up. Yeah, um. 10:49.00 Alan Ah, the the most holy when um, they've changed the laws that Non-indians cannot own or possess eagle feathers and it's illegal for. 10:52.70 archpodnet Sure. 11:05.13 archpodnet Um. 11:09.18 Alan Non-native people to own any sort of Eagle Regalia or anything along those lines. It's strictly for native Americans and so go ahead right. 11:20.60 archpodnet Yeah, you used to see talents like the talons of an eagle or or even a popa like you know as ah as a thing that could be sold. But yeah, that was made that was definitely made illegal but doesn't mean you can't still find them and people sell them so you can't even take them off of um, like roadkill. 11:31.71 Alan Sure But now. 11:37.55 archpodnet Or naturally naturally dead ones because you can't prove that you didn't kill it. Yeah. 11:43.45 Alan Exactly exactly and it's viewed it's viewed it's revered and viewed with tremendous ah power magic respect Prestige Ah, and it's and it's white. They like the white. 11:56.67 archpodnet Ah. 12:01.38 Alan And the white of course relates back to that is the color that's associated with the uppermost levels of the religious cosmological map of the universe. That's the top most layer and that's the white of the snow. 12:17.14 archpodnet Ah. 12:21.43 Alan White of the sun. The white of the clouds and the smoke everything that goes up to heavens is is in that realm of white and so that's that cosmological nexus that we see field taste and and sense and can um. 12:29.81 archpodnet Friend. 12:41.28 Alan Appeal to us vis-a-vis when they do a rain dance or when they are the weather shamans are attempting to bring the rain they do it through smoke and they do and they cause like brings like and so they will smoke their pipes. 12:53.99 archpodnet Ah. 13:00.85 Alan Native Tobacco and blow the smoke and the smoke goes up and use feathers because the feathers are lighter than air and they go up to the heavens. So. It's an upward glowing realm that is being produced into that white white atmosphere The highest Realms. Of Magic Supernatural power etc a whole package that sits up there and and it's not that different now cosmologically because people have ah sort of a hankering to go to the tops of mountains don't they. 13:38.30 archpodnet Yeah, indeed. 13:40.34 Alan They seem they seem to want to show that they can I don't know if it's a respect or some sort of an adventure or connection. But they want to feel that they have accomplished something of great Prestige and Awe. By traveling up to the tops of mountains and why is that doctor. 14:05.63 archpodnet Right? Okay, well you know because it's there isn't that the answer. Ah actually yeah yeah, well this did today. That's what with the you the answer used to be now we do it for Instagram. 14:14.31 Alan That's right? Why did I do it because it's there. Yeah. 14:22.94 archpodnet So we can get that selfie. That's why we do it. So ah. 14:24.84 Alan That's it. That's that's it but we could share it wildly and and because there's satellites we can have ah an Instagram picture instantly live live feed when we're doing it right. 14:28.60 archpodnet Home. 14:36.82 archpodnet That's right, that's right, that's right makes me wonder if ah you know current native american groups were still doing rock art if they would just be all selfies because that's what people like today you know, just pecking out an image of yourself right? there on a rock but you know probably not. So. 14:49.33 Alan I think I think that is something that is associated with sort of modern culture. This selfie thing people are aggredized and and and and so hypercentered on themselves. 15:02.60 archpodnet Um. 15:06.88 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 15:09.24 Alan Um, yeah, that's that's Instagram that's ah, what else? What's all these social social networking here's here's yeah, here's what I here's what I ate for breakfast this morning here's my lunch here's my dinner here I am exercising. 15:14.30 archpodnet Right? All of them pick your flavor. 15:27.75 Alan Here I'm reading reading my paper and drinking cup of coffee. Ah. 15:31.53 archpodnet Well, you know though it in ah in a larger discussion though, right? it does make it. It does seem like nothing's changed because we want people to validate our life choices and validate our activities and validate who we are as people. 15:39.38 Alan Um, yes, yes, yes, right. 15:46.73 archpodnet But then go look at all these sheer millions of panels of rock art out there. Not all of it is necessarily ritual some of it is probably you know people saying hey look what we've done look at this hunt look at this thing that we did look at this battle look at this. Whatever you know people have done that through the centuries in. 15:54.92 Alan Validation. 16:03.70 Alan There's an there's an enigmatic element exactly there's an yep, there's an enigmatic element that they call Shields in the cosos and I think that those are mennemonics of individuals who have passed. 16:04.90 archpodnet In not only rock art to start but tapestries. Yeah. 16:13.49 archpodnet Um, yeah. 16:20.83 Alan Ah, treasure sort of ah a memory signature and yeah and there they are. It's a memory of someone who no longer exists. But it's there on stone. It's a yeah. Ah. 16:21.27 archpodnet Oh yeah, sure. 16:39.80 Alan It's an immortality. It's ah it's a record of immortality and it will be there for a hundred years a thousand years if if it's in a good good place. It can be in there almost forever. 16:40.31 archpodnet Sure right? all right? well. 16:53.81 archpodnet Well some of those people might be immortal but this podcast certainly isn't so it's time to end it. Ah. 17:00.36 Alan Ah I'm having a blast I Just I Really enjoy working with you and and we always get into these interesting dialogues. So thanks for listening out there in podcast land. 17:08.00 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 17:13.83 Alan See you on the flip-flop.