00:00.00 Alan Well welcome back all you rock art podcasters for the third and final segment of the ninety fourth episode of the rock art podcast on the archeology podcast network your host Dr Allen garfinkel California rock art foundation hannah selyer noted author and artist is with us today to ah, give us a glimpse into her thinking and her work on writing a children's book on rock card. So hannah you're writing your children's book on rock art. Um, tell us about the adventure. The challenges the peaks the circumstances your experience of crafting this book and bring us along on that little bit of a journey How's that hannah. 00:52.79 Hannah Salyer Yeah, sure Alan um it and what a journey it was it really was it was I mean I had such an incredible time working on this book and it it took me a while took probably about. Three and a half years in total which you know there there are folks who work way longer on books but for a picture book often folks are are um, surprised to hear that you spend so long on ah on a picture book for children. But you know this one had. 01:29.70 Hannah Salyer Oh it had it had so much you know I I wanted to make sure I was doing really extensive research. Um, like I said I'm not I don't I'm not an archeologist I don't purport to be 1 and um, you know I really wanted to get a sense. Not only of the sites themselves. But. Um, what what we know about rock art and that's where this this podcast really was so helpful because you know you? um. 01:56.70 Alan Hannah Hannah what was your what was your biggest surprise in your research that you discovered. 02:05.57 Hannah Salyer Biggest surprise I think. 02:07.80 Alan Or even or even some sort of a theme that you teased out from your research. 02:14.67 Hannah Salyer Well I think you know what what I of what's you know, being said in in the story. Um is it's not as Alan I'm sure you know you've you've seen the book. Um, you've gone through it. Um, a digital copy It's not um I tried not to just spit facts out I'm really trying to engage the reader I'm asking a lot of questions because what I've found in in my research and you know reading texts and finding websites about all these different rock art sites and. And theories and and you know stuff information on materials is that it's more important to be asking questions than jumping to conclusions about what? Um, what's going on. You know, like when when we. 03:05.88 Alan So it's ah so it's about the questions. It's about the mystery. It's about asking interesting questions but not necessarily ah clearly or even completely responding to them but perhaps they provide even more interesting or sophisticated. 03:08.39 Hannah Salyer Yes. 03:23.33 Alan Questions as 1 delves into that subject matter. 03:25.35 Hannah Salyer Yes, precisely. 03:30.49 Alan So tell us about your questions. 03:35.34 Hannah Salyer Ah, well, um, you know So I I'm asking I I came at it I think I don't even I didn't plan it this way initially. But what ended up happening is I'm I'm talking a lot. About the senses What you're seeing in these when you you know are witnessing these sights and and this art what you're hearing in the sights. What you're feeling you know the tactile nature. 03:53.36 Alan Oh. 04:09.21 Hannah Salyer That was a huge the the tactility element was a really big consideration for me in crafting this book I actually um for a lot of the illustrations I was ah building ceramic. Replicas of sites and you know, ah drawing you know replicating or referencing actual rock art sites. Um and then photographing those mini sites that I had made. Um, and then illustrating over the photographs to give this sense of you know you're really filling the tactility of of stone and of minerals from the earth because I was using that stuff you know I felt like. 04:43.83 Alan Ah, oh my word. 04:55.48 Alan Yeah, you you you really got you really wrapped your mind and your body around the subject. 05:04.83 Hannah Salyer Yeah, yeah, and you know I mentioned I couldn't do a lot of research travel because of Covid So I I brought the sites to me I My studio is filled with caves um mini caves. 05:14.30 Alan Um, yes, wow! Fabulous Hannah what an it. What an interesting way to develop the interactive qualities of rock guard sites. That's fabulous absolutely fabulous and 05:20.68 Hannah Salyer Yeah. 05:31.70 Alan I Don't know if you're or aware or you probably are from all of your listening and research to this archaeoacoustics element of rock guard sites such as that amphitheater and others that are are sites that naturally are ensconced in a. 05:40.12 Hannah Salyer Yes. 05:51.00 Alan Some kind of an amphitheater or a resonating place and even that has ecophonic properties. 05:59.71 Hannah Salyer Yes, um, exactly I was thinking a lot about that because I I mean I I Myself am not a musician but my partner is actually a musician and he's very ah sensitive to acoustics and of course you know I heard that wonderful. Episode about archaeo-acoustics of the rock art podcast and um, that really helped me think about that aspect and how to include it in the story. Um, and basically I'm asking I say you know what? what did our ancestors think when they heard these echoes. Um, and these I can read. Actually you know many of the sites also have unique Soundscapes Deep Resonant Chambers rocks that ring when they are hit and walls that seem to talk back? Um, so you know. 06:52.44 Alan The Rit the Rig the ringing rocks? yes. 06:53.82 Hannah Salyer Kind of crafting. Yes, yeah I'm trying to craft that that theater for the reader who's you know, ostensibly going to be a child I want them to to imagine and feel like they're there and. 07:02.96 Alan Yes. 07:12.37 Alan Yeah, well you you delved this book sounds like you delved in a way and and probed and asked enticing questions and have the the story develop tell me a bit about developing the storyline that must have been a. A challenge as well. 07:34.21 Hannah Salyer Um, oh no, it's a walk in the park. Ah yes. 07:34.85 Alan Oh yeah, yeah, very very very easy because people have told told me I I did a a movie and you may have seen it's called talking stone. It's a it's a a show was it on Pbs and with a oh and. 07:45.80 Hannah Salyer Yes. 07:54.31 Alan And award-winning cinematographer and he said it was one of the hardest efforts he's ever done to make the rocks talk to make you know them speak and sing and have engaging narratives so that someone can watch a movie and. 08:02.94 Hannah Salyer In. 08:13.91 Alan You know, see a story or connect with a story that hooks them and that provides them with an understanding and an um, you know an interest level to elevate them and engage them throughout an hour long journey. Into this science and study of rock art and he said it was very it was difficult. It was difficult. Go ahead. 08:39.29 Hannah Salyer Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um so I'm so sorry Alan I I was going to say something and I lost my train of thought repeat your question for me. 08:54.32 Alan No I mean we're we're riffing here. We're just sort of making an organic discussion and so and yeah, no, no, no, no question I was riffing I was I was reflecting on some of this and sharing with you a little bit of ah, a story instead of ah, a parallel way. 08:57.16 Hannah Salyer Okay, okay I just wanted to make sure I wasn't um, missing a question. 09:04.60 Hannah Salyer Okay. 09:09.67 Hannah Salyer Um, yeah, yeah. 09:12.10 Alan To what you've had to do so my journey took me 4 years to make this you know hour long cinema cinematography and you took about the same time to do this book people wonder about that I've done lots of different books and articles my articles take about 4 years 09:20.26 Hannah Salyer And. 09:31.31 Alan Books take about 4 minimum and that's for ah you know a lengthy book or something along those lines and some people seem to be able to knock them out much further but I don't think they've engaged the subject in sort of a scholarly deep and abiding way. You agree Hannah. 09:53.13 Hannah Salyer Ah, in terms of of rock art. Um. 09:53.93 Alan Yes, in terms of whatever subject. But even with rock guard to really you know be a scholar and understand what you're working with the subject matter it takes time. 10:03.91 Hannah Salyer Oh yeah, Absolutely I mean the kind of what I discovered quickly and was not surprising to me, you know in dealing with this subject matter of rock art. There are some philosophical underpinnings here. There are many and. Kind of going back to what we were talking about with you know, making it accessible to children. Um, you know that that was a challenge Really there was there were so many edits to the manuscript and the language and the story structure. Um. And another consideration that I was thinking a lot about was I wanted it I wanted the book to certainly you know, give give kids information because kids love to just learn. Um, that's that's the beauty of Nonfiction books. They get to learn. 11:01.10 Alan Um, yeah. 11:01.64 Hannah Salyer New things. But I also wanted to leave a lot of space for mystery and curiosity and even a little um, not fear but a little kind of darkness. 11:17.72 Alan Yeah, re re reverence sort of a you know, kind of an homage. You know that that's sort of an overwhelming experience correct. 11:19.28 Hannah Salyer Um, because they're yes. 11:29.11 Hannah Salyer Yeah, yeah, Absolutely um I think leaving space in stories can be really powerful. Um, you know I have certain spreads where I'm I'm I'm listing information like I have a spread about. You know, different um, different rock art sites that have more kind of symbolic um images and what that means? Um, and then I have following that a spread about you know the different prehistoric species. We're seeing in in some of the rock arts. 11:53.41 Alan Oh. 12:03.50 Alan Um, oh yeah, ah. 12:05.66 Hannah Salyer But then I have spreads that are have you know very sparse text that are really jarring imagery. Um, there's one spread that's a foldout. It's going to be a foldout spread that has no text at all and it's just you. In the Lascaux caves actually with the 4 boys who rediscovered it. Um and I wanted you know I think that silence is really important. Um, just the absence of words and letting letting the reader take in. Um, you know, behold this. Incredible Um, visage before them. 12:44.30 Alan Yeah, and it is. It is very very powerful and I guess as we get more and more information about it. They talk about the flickering fires that could have been there and animated the rock art images so that they moved and they created and were enlivened on the. Walls of the rock canvas. So There's there's that and then the and then the sounds the sounds that they might have heard or thought they heard from the crackling fire or from the rocks themselves the dripping of water and how those ah. 13:07.77 Hannah Salyer Yes. 13:21.68 Alan Emanated or reverberated so all of that and much more well Hannah as we near the end of our interactive conversation. Um, tell us a bit of when the book will be available and anything you think you'd like our listeners to hear or take away. From this hour of our discussion. 13:47.29 Hannah Salyer Okay, well I will start with um you know the the book is going to publish officially on April Eleventh Twenty Twenty three so this spring. Um, I actually believe you can preorder it right now which is super helpful if you are listening and you want to check out this book and you want to help a small creator and you know help this book take off preordering as I'm sure Ellen you well know is so helpful. Um, and important. Um it shows the publisher people are interested. Um, as far as takeaways from the book. Um I actually so I should mention there's a lot of back matter in the book. There's the the story and then the back matter is kind of um, just info. In the back that couldn't be put into the manuscript. It just didn't quite fit but I felt you know felt like it was really crucial to have in the book. Um, and you know there's a site map of all different sites around the globe. Not every single one but I tried to hit every. Continent and small like groups of islands. Um, and then I have amongst other things I have an author's note where I'm talking about the fact that um, you know it's really important to recognize that. 15:15.77 Hannah Salyer To our ancestors making these markings. It was not merely art and I think you've talked about this before too. Rock art is kind of a misnomer. Um, it was. 15:29.93 Hannah Salyer Very much these sites were from what we understand they were functional. They held information they were kind of living um sites. Um and you know they I mentioned like they they continue to hold that importance and those functions. 15:37.64 Alan He. 15:48.43 Hannah Salyer And in addition, they're now time capsules they hold this incredible information about our history on the planet. Um, and I Also you know I I mention supporting and uplifting indigenous communities. 16:05.53 Alan Um, but around a memo. 16:08.13 Hannah Salyer All over the place because as we well know they're treated pretty horribly by most um by most countries and there's a lot of there's been a lot of problematic um language around rock art and. You know not giving credit where credits do and um so I felt that it was really Important. You know to to mention how ah how indigenous communities are a part of this story. Um, a really big part of the story. 16:45.85 Alan Amen I like that oh Hannah that's about all we have time for today. But I'd love to invite you back when the when the book is out and we'll we'll revisit some of these incredible topics. Hannah was just a delight and a pleasure and I'm so glad you had an opportunity to share your passion. 16:50.38 Hannah Salyer Um. 17:03.22 Alan On rock art and the book so see see you soon? Ah, all my listeners see in the flip flop gang. Thank you Hannah. 17:11.15 archpodnet Possibly. 17:11.94 Hannah Salyer Thanks so much. Alan.