00:00.00 archpodnet Go. 00:01.16 alan Hey out there in rock art podcast archeology podcast land this is your host Dr Alan Garfinkel and we are blessed and honored to have a yeah astounding young woman. Her name is Dr Helena mator am I pronouncing that right to Elena can you hear me. 00:24.41 Elena Mateos Oh well. Yeah, my my real name is Helena Mateos but I you go by Elena Maor in every social media. So whatever is. 00:30.20 alan Like the earth. Oh. that's that's that's nice um and Elena is coming to us from a Spain from Spain and she'll be talking about her exciting adventures. And in rock art research in the ah mexican jungle right? That's right? So this is an exciting adventure for us. Um, we've had a number of individuals from all over the world over the course of the. 00:51.95 Elena Mateos Yeah, that's right. 01:06.57 alan This is number 1 oh 6 for us in terms of our episodes but I always um, get excited when we have a chance to speak to some of our international colleagues and after reading a short bio on Elena I think this is going to be a phenomenally interesting adventure the way we usually kick this off Elena. Is. We? Yeah, we let you talk a bit about your bio your your background. How did you ever get involved in the study of archaeology native americans and rock art. How did that come to pass. 01:41.30 Elena Mateos Well long story short I was living in Madrid and I was working on a st at the same time I was 33 23 years old honestly I was tired so I got to a scholarship for Mexico in great I was going to be able just to study for the first time in my life. And so I went there and I discovered a national autonomous university in Mexico I was stunned by it I fell in love with the country. The people landscapes everything? um as a montte lor on a rock rockard lover I had always wanted to study Rock Art so I started asking around you know and even though my internship was going to be what was going to last six months only it was during my bachelor degrees I ended up being in Mexico for 11 years Um, yeah, but. 02:31.66 alan Oh my word where where where is that national autonomous university located it is a Mexico city. Okay, very nice and and and did they have a very active program in the study of rock guard or is that unusual. 02:38.47 Elena Mateos I in Mexico City yeah so it was yeah. 02:51.64 alan Because I know all over the world. It's a little bit different from place to place. 02:54.11 Elena Mateos Ah I couldn't say it's unusual, but maybe in all my program in the history program during my master's degree I was the only testsis dedicated to rocar and yeah and during my doctorate degree I will say that we were 2 people maybe 3 I'm not sure. But. 03:04.90 alan Okay. 03:13.97 Elena Mateos No, it's not so come on I will say. 03:14.13 alan Not so common and and your background is also in art history isn't it. 03:20.84 Elena Mateos Yes, my bachelor's degree is in art history. So maybe that is why I'm so focused or I ah Econography love. But. 03:29.39 alan Well, that's that's absolutely wonderful I think that I don't have a background in art history. But I have ah a passion for the understanding of religion and also for the and the understanding of it as you were saying the relationship between the natural world. 03:37.39 Elena Mateos Um, yes. 03:47.10 alan And let's say the supernatural world or the world of the celestial or divine Kingdom seeing the way that that things connect and how that ah people preliterate people um viewed the natural environment. As sentient as alive and having agency which is which is rather remarkable and I know that for a time I'd say that the the the west was rather skeptical of that view. But I Think what's happened what's happening. Is physicists and others scientists are coming to an understanding that there is a deep and abiding and scientific basis for that Understanding. Do you agree. 04:36.81 Elena Mateos Yeah, that is totally what I Ah what I hope I get to do in my during my doctoral studies because I I prepare a nicoographical ah ecoographic analysis broadly and through that investigation Quantity qua. 04:52.70 alan Ah. 04:55.23 Elena Mateos Ah, quality investigation and quantity investigation I came up with a solution for the answer. Why why? Why do? why? did they paint you know and I think that this is what you have just mentioned is crucial to my investigation and to my heart. It's very close to my heart honestly. 04:59.70 alan Flight. 05:11.16 alan So so tell us where your your research was conducted you. Ah you said there. There's a particular mountain range or a part of the jungle that attracted you correct. 05:20.95 Elena Mateos Yeah I either started back in 2009 when I first started a place located in the area of the papoca capital mountain is a huge bucano close to Mexico City is five thousand six hundred meters high over the sea level. 05:32.57 alan Okay. Oh my on that that's about that a few times each meter is about three feet so we're we're talking about fifteen Thousand feet which is which is you? That's that that's huge huge. 05:39.33 Elena Mateos I don't know feet I think is what. 05:47.77 Elena Mateos Yeah, it's a pretty huge to Monta but that is hugee and not only is it is it hugee. It's also amazing because it's poppoca capital means the montane that has a smoke you know. 05:55.34 alan Okay. 06:03.76 Elena Mateos So it can be seen from everywhere is an active volcano. So I fell in love with that mont the first time I ever saw that I cried honestly that was my experience so I wanted to study rokcar that that was close to the mountain. So I first studied a place called Descalindado Deskal is nawatle and means like wall. 06:04.20 alan Um, yes. 06:09.10 alan Um, Wow Oh yeah, yeah. 06:23.75 Elena Mateos Um, rock wall. Um bidado is spanish and it means painted so it could mean like painting rock wall in that place I discovered a shorter a rock shelter with more than a hundred motifs all painting painted in white from the post-classic period and I conducted that research based on iconography. And the relationship between the paintings and the ceremonies that were present in some colleaguelic calendarical codetics. Yeah, so that was my first approach. 06:48.23 alan So what? The what? What? What? What? What? What would those have dated to because for So for those that don't don't understand the chronology for mesoamerica. 06:57.89 Elena Mateos Oh yeah, from that classic period that we're talking about around the thousand a news day a d to the ah to maybe when the spanny the spanniers went to Mexico. Yeah yes. 07:04.91 alan It's a how many years old. Spanish Span game. So yeah, so that was a one of the one of the last prehistoric periods correct nobody because it's right? Yeah,, That's right, That's right, they they they had the writing now. 07:17.37 Elena Mateos Well, it's not totally please story because they did have cotics. Yeah, they had writing yes. 07:27.64 alan Are the codis are the codices translated per se or they're interpreted correct. 07:31.35 Elena Mateos Well we have some different codes. We have prehispanic code that were interpreted or explained to the monks At some point you know so there are notations. Yeah, there are an nottations in some codex and they are very helpful when it comes to understanding. 07:41.32 alan Um, oh I I see. 07:48.33 Elena Mateos The relationship with the deities and the underworld and everything. So I think that through the analysis of paintings. The analysis of Motiveifs and through the interpretations that very intelligent authors like eddoro seller made at the beginning of the twentieth century. We. 07:48.65 alan Um. 08:04.40 alan Um, yes, yes. 08:05.94 Elena Mateos We can understand a lot a lot of of econography and the rock card is ah not very rich in econography surprisingly but is very precise and it's always related to the gods of the water. The gods of the mountains and everything that keeps things going on. You know. Raining happening life happening. So yeah, it's very just. 08:29.22 alan So in the images that were white What what were the depictions of were they were they did they mirror the ah elements of a codices or were they more enigmatic in terms of having ah you know various elements or ah. Animal-human figures which was it. 08:46.35 Elena Mateos Okay, now we are talking about teshalindado which is my first investigation in the masters degree during the masters degree and in that place. They all resemble colleagues. Yeah, we have 80 s we have human figures we have processions on elements of regional elements. You know. 08:51.40 alan Um, write write? Yeah, but oh well. 09:05.40 Elena Mateos People like doing things Twitter and we also have a lot of moons. Um, which could be interpreted at the stars and suns. Yeah. 09:08.86 alan So it. So so you you could almost read the rock art in that way. Could you not or no inside. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but but but but because it was so rich and so codified. 09:16.44 Elena Mateos Oh I felt I felt that I call maybe I was mistaken but I totally cool. Yeah yeah, of course. 09:28.75 alan They talk about some of the rock art that I work with is far more enigmatic and mysterious and difficult to understand but you've got it? No no yes. 09:35.19 Elena Mateos Had and do have historical do't have historical notes to to to go for and to to consult the as is totally very different. Yeah on in this case in this case, we are lucky. 09:45.12 alan But you to have the history and plus the codices and and and were the were these related to the Aztec people the knock waddle. 09:55.11 Elena Mateos Yeah, now wattle cultureter. Yeah, it was created by them. Maybe not the aztec because the aztecs were like a small drive. Ah that belonged to that huge nawatle culture. 10:07.51 alan Right. 10:09.38 Elena Mateos But yeah, some some ah other groups that were living in that area. Um, yeah, so that was my master's investigation and my first approach to mexicancar and then I went crazy or went bananas I think you say in your limit. 10:15.10 alan Um, and what and what did you conclude in your master's investigation about ah about about that particular site. 10:26.28 Elena Mateos Well I thought I came to the conclusion that the rock art was related with some ceremonial parties that can be trace it on coaxies and mostly related to the deities of the water and to thank the Death. For the maintainance of life in the real World. You know in the human world. 10:51.40 alan So very ah, very very clearly a metaphor ah almost like a visual prayer as I put it ah a prayer go ahead. 10:55.19 Elena Mateos Yeah, that that that is perfectly. Yeah, this christ. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, perfect. That's right, let. 11:01.93 alan What and it had to do with water and it had to do with life and it had to do with I presume death as well. 11:10.30 Elena Mateos Yeah, because you know in in Mexican cultures in nawatle culture. They believed that water was creating in the center of inside of the mountains they were the mountains were containers for water and inside of those mountains. The death will go and they will become. The masters of life Somehow they call push life out to the mountains you know. And for example, if you were heated. But if you were hit by um, lighting during a storm youal die and then you will become at Laloke which is ah. 11:39.26 alan Yes, guess. 11:46.27 Elena Mateos Ah, server of the god cloock and you will write the the the clouds. So the rain will reach different regions of the of the area. So yeah, that is very beautiful. The relationship between life and death is so beautiful I I am in love with that. It's very different when I welcome Cosmo Vision 12:01.46 alan What what? right? What elevation or was that particular cave that rock shelter that you studied there on that mountain. The first one for your dream masteres thesis master's thesis. 12:05.56 Elena Mateos This. 12:15.18 Elena Mateos Well, that was ah it was in a place called Weyapan is very close to the papacaep bucanno and it was situated in. Um, um I don't know how to say that in English. Ah. 12:24.63 alan Ah, her. 12:29.51 alan Was it was it high up was it low was it mid mid elevation. 12:31.91 Elena Mateos But second no it was in ah in ah in the in a river you know? yeah on ah in a re so it was I don't remember they were in english right now. Can you believe that. 12:37.84 alan Yes, it's near a river. 12:45.21 alan Okay, okay, so after you did your master and a canyon yeah can young. So so after you did your master's thesis and what what about what year was that do you remember how many years ago 12:50.15 Elena Mateos Like canny on in a canyon sorry yeah, ah 2011 yeah 13:04.71 Elena Mateos 2011 world is was twelve years ago I came back to Spain. Yeah I came back to Spain and tried to find the job here didn't succeed so I went back to Mexico and and started my ph d degree. 13:07.49 alan Um, oh yeah, twelve years ago yeah okay ah okay 13:19.50 alan Ah, and. 13:19.51 Elena Mateos Yeah, it was accepted in the National autonomous University again and that was ah a gift of course. 13:23.70 alan Great and so then you began your ph d research which was the next I see well let's let's hold it there. That'll be the first segment of the 3 segment interview and during the next segment we'll. 13:27.59 Elena Mateos Yeah, it I I began in 2013 13:42.84 alan Move along and find out about your Ph H D Yeah Efforts How is that is that not good, perfect them and day but like yes see yeah, see have the flip flop Gang. Thanks. 13:47.50 Elena Mateos Perfect Yeah, but facto I mean cantaly there see.