00:02.90 alan Welcome back gang. We're here at the ah archaeology podcast network we're doing the rock art podcast and we're with Elena Dr. Elena soon to be and she's going to talk about her ph d dissertation research. Elena kick it off. 00:24.53 Elena Mateos Okay, so ah, after having finished my master's degree I decided that it was high time. It was investigating a bust area you know because when you focus on only one shelter you don't see the whole picture. So I decided that it was going to start in a place called tepo slan. Which is situated about sixty kilometers seventy kilometers far from Mexico City Southeast so in the state of Morelos and I decided that that because during my previews investigation I had seen the mountains of teuslan and I thought oh those mountains look pretty special to me. So. There must be rock art in there. You know so I went there and I did discover several places and I thought I was going to find more little did I know that I was going to find more than 30 places in those montanes. 01:13.91 alan Wow. 01:16.98 Elena Mateos Yeah, ah that have it hadn't been previously recorded. Ah wow that yeah. 01:21.76 alan Now and how did those places differ from your masters were they also ah similar or were they very different. 01:32.78 Elena Mateos How there are very some of their um are very similar whereas so they are very different. This is very interesting. So I found that I I am there and I find that there are a lot of places. Yeah, um, there are many different type types of places you know. 01:37.36 alan Please tell us a bit about these images. 01:50.16 Elena Mateos I Found places from different periods of time different magnitude different hate different size you know and I find places so I need to come out with a solution for that. So I realized that there are some different places I call one of them locals which are the places in which they. 01:56.20 alan Who. 02:09.21 Elena Mateos And Motiveifs are very small about 20 c centtimemetters thirty c centtimemeter as much. The human figure is hardly represented hardly ever represented where they ask there are other places big and I wait when I say big I mean like six seven mets like therealpin databis and. 02:24.79 alan Wow. 02:27.66 Elena Mateos Those the human figure is really important. They reach the matter you know, incised and there are a lot of motives and most importantly, and more importantly, sorry there are many periods ah of time in which those places were repainted and painted and painted again. So. Yeah, there are I will say that there are 2 main different type of places local and the ones that I called monumental places. So. 02:55.18 alan I see now did both of those ah were they more abstract or are they more realistic were they easier to read and more difficult to read. 03:07.28 Elena Mateos I will say that it depends on the on the period of time there come from so in order to be able to determine the period of time that in which the art was created. 03:13.10 alan Ah. 03:18.77 alan Move. 03:20.75 Elena Mateos I came to other places that were in the area for example, Telkaino Telcatino is a very important archaeological site that has been studied over the time by many superintel super mason investigator like Michael Smith Alex apoststoli this or now it is being investigated by Huja Mador I don't know if you know him who do oh his his work in regard is is is amazing honestly I totally admire his work so he um in chaca single. There are some. 03:42.56 alan Names Dave is familiar by the way. Yeah. 03:57.49 Elena Mateos All there archeological things that can be traced back in time. So I took from telcating some of the mots in order to give a period of standardnora chronology to the vast amount of different types styles andottives that I discovered in my era. So that is what I did because depending on the period of time in which the ar was created the iconography barize a lot and the type of Moifs are very different. 04:26.97 alan And what did you conclude from your research in terms of the function of these sites or their ages and the ah character of what they're trying to communicate. 04:39.14 Elena Mateos Oh that is a very beautiful question because I think that only when you are related with the mountains and nature. You are able to to really understand how important water it is you know so. What I realized is that it didn't matter whether the places were big monumental or locals the most most important thing that they were related to were either are cavity in the in the walls or water source of water either seasonal or perennial. So for example in the local small places you will find cannings dogs moons and stars mostly those are the most represented motives but they are always really close to a source of water really close to them. So when you are walking in the mountains and you are thirsty and it is hot and you find this perennial water. Of course you want to for this place to be busied by the gods that are allowing that water to exist in that place. So. In my opinion, The selection of the places was not based on the quality of the rock For example, which is mostly hard and horrible rock to paint and it's not you know a plain wall but they were selected based on that on the presence of water. 06:03.60 Elena Mateos Or cavities because in Mexican in the mexican religion now what now what religion it was thought that cavities allow people to communicate with the underworld that I mentioned before. So. Tokul ask them to be there and to and to bring more water. That's my date. 06:22.48 alan So these so so these cavities are what we might call portals portals and connections tethers conduits to another world and this was a means of connecting to the supernatural beings correct. 06:27.67 Elena Mateos Yes. I think. 06:38.30 Elena Mateos Yeah, ah, totally they are even to yeah, it's totally right? Even today there are los te bedos um los te beos for example, are re retail specialists that go to those cavities and leave an offering so that the rain is going to come. 06:55.60 alan Well. 06:56.82 Elena Mateos And for example in another yeah and this is done every year in El Papocaepe volcano in teoslan in other places and in sanandresal laal which is a ah town in teoslan in the municipality of te postlan. 07:09.52 alan Yeah. 07:11.59 Elena Mateos They do the Itis representation is like the wind the winds the winds the winds ah freetals yes because they do believe that in the cavities. The cavities you can find winds that have power good or evil so every year they. 07:15.14 alan The winds winds. 07:25.92 alan Interesting. Are there are there any ceremonies or dances or other things that are done ah in this in the nearby cities or towns that relate to these particular powers or. 07:28.76 Elena Mateos Bring offering to those winds in the cavities. Yeah. 07:45.19 alan Deities or or associations. 07:46.53 Elena Mateos Yeah I would say that when they bless the the seed. Ah they go to the mountains for example in the pasttra. There is a very particular mountain called La Ae which means the Monte of the man or the heel of the men. 08:01.50 alan Okay. 08:03.53 Elena Mateos And in the in the neighborhood of Santa Cruz they believed that that lacae is a person has personality and that Mont is taking care of the neighborhood. So every year again in may it is the same period of time for all these ceremonies when when the rain is about to come. 08:18.92 alan It's it's in may. 08:22.95 Elena Mateos They bless the and they the seatds but before doing that they climb the mountain and they dress across you know and decorat decorate across with flowers and draw a lot of danceies. There are for days and days they dance and they conduct a ceremony in the barrio and elvare la Santa Cruz yeah 08:25.40 alan The seeds. 08:42.70 Elena Mateos It's a very beautiful set it. It used to be my neighborhood So I enjoy that. 08:44.23 alan So so is is is that a sinncretic phenomenon so that they're they're joining the native ideology with catholicism because of the cross or it we're not yes. 08:59.98 Elena Mateos Yeah, well the cross is is is present in the prehispanic religion as well. So I don't know what comes first if a re interpretation of the cross maybe or maybe they are using cross. Ah. 09:03.60 alan Yeah, okay. 09:14.27 Elena Mateos But well different different interpretations or different meanings for that. But of course that religion is present the chart in every neighborhood has a chart and the chart conducts a lot of ceremonies and everything is around is done around the chart. So it's like the temple you know, um. 09:33.10 Elena Mateos Yeah, so I do think that there are a many things that have been integrated together in terms of now a religion and Catholic religion. Of course. 09:46.50 alan That's that's very fascinating to me I'm catholic and I've been studying mesoamerican religion. In fact, we have a we have a book coming out that just came out this month and it's about the ah iconicity of the Utah aztechans that chasing. Ah. 09:47.10 Elena Mateos Is it. 10:02.91 alan You know, sort of reconstructing it from its beginnings and four thousand five thousand years ago and moving from Eastern California to the american southwest into the high cultures of Mexico and we look at it through ah symbolism. Ah, specifically emphasizing the role of the serpent vis-a-vis how that is depicted and used as a means of as a conduit for life regeneration and water. 10:35.25 Elena Mateos And do you have a serpent with horns. 10:40.36 alan Ah, in the american southwest yes in the american southwest they have a ah serpent that has horns the serpent that we have in Eastern California is decorated with quail plumes quail plumes. Yes. 10:41.30 Elena Mateos Okay. 10:52.31 Elena Mateos Ah, oh my like It'sar go atti. Ah. 10:58.13 alan Right? right? And um, it's sort of a headpiece and you would probably be tickled to read a bit about what we've done and I'll be happy to send you a copy of the book. Um, and then we have another 1 relating to this animal. Human figures. It's surprising more than surprising it's it's gob smacking if you want to use that word. Um that ah I'm I'm in Baker's field right now which is in the bottom of the Southern San Joaquin Valley and in the. 11:22.95 Elena Mateos Within. 11:35.78 alan But you might call Southern California I'm only an hour or two away from the western mojave desert. There's an area there called koso and I've been visiting it for about 50 years and and in a canyon um there the major canyon that's available to. 11:46.66 Elena Mateos Just. 11:54.12 alan Public visitation. There is a a panel a picture of what we feel what we feel is a ah communication. A storyboard of the creation of the world to um. 12:00.35 Elena Mateos Ah. 12:12.90 alan The ancient udo s tecans. It's similar to the creation story among the weel and also amongst the aztecs or the nahwaddle and it has to do with it has to do with the the 4 pilgrims and the um, the ah. 12:20.71 Elena Mateos On life. 12:31.31 Elena Mateos Chicomastok The caves ah get him k. 12:32.13 alan Ah, lunar goddess and you have a lunar goddess and and and the and the individuals who are going to the the mountain to create the sun and the story goes that they do that. 12:50.32 alan 1 is that 1 sacrifices themselves and after they do that the the sun is not tethered high enough in the sky and they've got to push up the sky. So there's a depiction of these 4 or 5 individuals pushing up clouds and they form a. Cloud serpent if you will or rain again rain so but that's all on this small ah sort of triangular boulder there in in little petogliff canyon now that say. 13:11.29 Elena Mateos I. 13:21.41 Elena Mateos Aha. 13:25.96 Elena Mateos That is amazing. Ah. 13:27.25 alan That same that same creation story is also in Southern Texas um and in a huge ah panel a painting that's in um, that's done by Carolyn Boyd it's a book on the white shaman cave and she. She is the one that sort of inspired me to begin to understand mesoamerican theology and cosmology and I've been publishing with um, a gentleman who teaches at guanawato university his name is tertam Muka Abadi and he ah he has written. 13:59.11 Elena Mateos Really. 14:06.50 alan A couple of articles and now this you know 70000 word book. So um I've been down to Mexico several times mainly mainly to the peninsula but also now to the mainland to ah to be a guest scholar with him. So. 14:21.47 Elena Mateos Oh my. 14:25.33 alan And my yeah, my esposo podta emre is ah is a tahannna mamasita so she's she's from Texas and I'm learning everything I can about mesoamerican culture and of course I'm a passionate catholic that lives in in Bakersfield where. 14:27.35 Elena Mateos Ah. 14:43.21 alan Where where the majority of the people are mexican it's it's a gri. It's it's we've got more than 50% mexican and when you go to the church they have. They have one one service for english and I don't know 5 or 6 for this in spanish service. 14:54.94 Elena Mateos Um. 15:02.12 alan So um, there's tremendous mexican spanish culture all around me which is which is which is fascinating and wonderful and I never thought I would be as connected to Mexico and Mesoamerica as I am and. 15:07.39 Elena Mateos That must be innocent. 15:21.21 alan Continuously learning so much. Um I think it also relates to my study of the um Guadalupana the fair family guadadeupe and understanding the significance of of that mountain. Yes, yes, well. 15:29.27 Elena Mateos Yes, yes, the Nana and the madre sita. Yeah of course. 15:38.18 alan You we've used up the second one it flew by see in the flip flop gang. We'll go to the third. 15:38.71 Elena Mateos Yes, yes, it just float a fle you flew by? yeah. Okay, see and.