00:01.61 alan Welcome back gang this is Dr Alan Garfinkel with the third segment on the rock art podcast with our blessed elena matorg. She ah is a renowned scholar and and someone who has. Worked hard at studying rock art in the wonderful country of Mexico. So so where do where are you now in your in your journey elena and what what do you feel? you have learned from your studies and where do we take it from here. 00:37.42 Elena Mateos Well I've learned that how important I need has always been for humans to be communicating with nature and that religion and magic is present at every single rock that we can find um now I'm living in a small town in seviia in Spain. Um i. I'm Grady I am looking for regarding here I haven't found any I'm sure I will at some point but no I I am looking forward to translating my Phd deities into english and write articles and I dedicated myself to to study english and to become a. 01:07.60 alan Ah. 01:12.12 Elena Mateos Ah, teacher an English teacher. So that's what I do right now. But of course I am always reading about rock art and lovinging Ro art and listening to your podcast by the way. It's amazing I know it the Archa of motion just toed my heart come on amazing. 01:18.43 alan Ah, that is wonderful Elena I'm I'm so glad and I'm so I'm ah I'm I'm so I'm so blessed and honored that you haven't have an international following. That's that's just just amazing. Ah, yeah, it's it's it's terrific. So if you put your finger on the pulse of what you've found out in your most in your ph d studies. Give us some some of the key takeaways some of the most astounding or interesting discoveries. 01:37.61 Elena Mateos Ah, ah this if. 01:56.80 alan That you've made on what the rock art means how it function how it relates to the natural world. What what you found most enticing and wonderful about it. 02:08.54 Elena Mateos Well aside from its own existence which is amazing I found that in Mexico rock art is everywhere everywhere that probably the first place that was painting was painted when humans reached the the region and they last. Roque art that you can find if you went to Mexico tomorrow will be the one made the day before tomorrow you know ro art is present because people have a huge and beautiful relationship with nature that we have lost here in Europe I have to say. Um, regarding the rock art inepestlan and in the region of teoslan and the for example, chakaine oteskalindada all those regions regions. What I think is that it is very important to note that there are many different places to have local places as small places in which small rituals were probably conducted by. Farmers by locals and we have big places huge places which probably had served as ritual ritual places because you have you can help hold a huge crowd of people in there. You know and the paintings are amazing. Stunning bigger. Ah, they contain as scenes instead of um, just Motiveifs or tiny motives. So I think that rock art was a generalized practice in in from forever I would say until probably when the spanish people arrived and but not I'm not so sure because after the spanish people arrived. 03:41.44 Elena Mateos You can find that they have horses and people on horses in the Rockard. So they continue painting afterward. So I think that rock art is the result of the communication with the environment, the natural environment and that residentification of places that. half water of half a threshold of communic communication or a possibility of communicating with the underworld and then you want to paint in there because in Mexico they thought that things had the essence or contained it the essence of the gods. So when you paint something. The god is there. You know when you make a sculpture The god is in that exulpture so drag like trapping or capting the essence of the god and putting putting that essence inside of the thing that you are trading so when they were painting in places where there is water. Oh my god there is life in there. You know in the dry period of time you will find water if you go there or where there are cavities and places of communication with those forces you paint in there. So do somehow make the god come back to that place. So I believe that from time to time they will take some offerings in there to the local places and to the monumental ones the difference between those two will be that in the monumental ones. There will be conducted huge ceremonies. That's my take. That's where I think. 05:12.00 alan So what you're what you're saying which is interesting is that the painting of rock art is in 1 way. Also a a way of communicating to the deities to bring them. 05:26.56 Elena Mateos M. 05:30.48 alan To that place and to help ah reinstall reassure ah bless the place and the needs of the people that were there. Yeah. 05:45.71 Elena Mateos That's precisely that is precisely what I think. 05:49.11 alan And that's fascinating. That's that's a very wonderful and and and emotionally fulfilling way of thinking about these places. It's also much simpler than the way that the anthropologists. 06:03.34 Elena Mateos Um, yeah, yeah, well don't you feel that the to build a divine presence with yeah I. Ah. 06:06.43 alan Have chosen to of course of course, of course you I call like I call it to you've got the Koso Glow you've got the glow when you're there and it it sticks with you for a couple weeks afterwards when you're yeah when you're you've got the Mojo that hits you. 06:20.50 Elena Mateos Yeah. 06:26.27 alan When you're there in that place and it's the same way when you see rock art in many different places you you understand or get a feeling or a sensitivity that you're connected to another world. Another place. Um and ah, a. 06:42.51 Elena Mateos It It definitely makes this pace special. 06:45.40 alan A reason ah a particular. Yeah, it's an emotional experience it. It's it emotes and I had I had I had Dr Turtha he he called his he did you know he called those those 2 additions his episodes the emotional or I think he called it. 06:52.90 Elena Mateos Ah, no. 07:04.43 Elena Mateos Yeah, the archeology of emotion. Yeah, and still. 07:04.78 alan Emotional archeology or the archeology of um of emotions and so and and no one talks about that very much because it's It's a matter of when you view these images and when you're there in this place. It has a very. 07:21.87 Elena Mateos Ah, and. 07:23.13 alan Spiritual ah feeling a spiritual meaning a fulfillment a it's it. There's something very supernatural about being there am I correct. 07:35.89 Elena Mateos Yeah, so that even for a non-religious person I am not a religious person I have never been but I can't totally recall being on the mountainane for example for like for a whole ex exhaustusing day looking for rock art or well I. 07:43.91 alan Ah. 07:51.93 Elena Mateos Became a volunteer in search and rescue on fire fighting even today. For example, we will be fighting off wildfire in the mountains of teus land and you know the heat and the dust and the good and barely breathed you know and people go and say oh god help me they were. Asking telelock to bring the rain even today you know so even people that I know by a fact that they are not religious as I am as neither I am am I sorry that that is something that will happen every time you will ask for people for a biggest. And strongest for to help you so I am it comes at no surprise to me that the rock art was painted in such significant places in which life is present in a magical way because you don't get to understand why in the top of the mountain. You can find a source of water, clean water, fresh water in the middle of February which is is really hot in there. The winds. The winds are really dry and everything is on fire and in April when you are sweating and then you're super tired that you find that water you are not even surprised to see rock art. So run data so surround that area. For example, there are other walls that are beautiful world walls to paint I love painting I have my own Olos you know and I love paintings I love painting oil painting and stuff so but when I saw that world's the perfect world to paint. 09:15.81 alan Little. 09:25.95 Elena Mateos And no paint was there at first I will ask myself Why people why choosing this horrible place to paint you know when to choose these other one people what is wrong with you? Well I. 09:34.72 alan Ah, yes, so it it. It's not it. Yeah yeah, right? So it's so it's so it's not. It's not the canvas they're looking for but the in. 09:39.41 Elena Mateos After after serious consideration I realized that the water was the key. But yeah, no, yes. 09:51.49 alan Yeah, environmental Associations the life and the place not not. The place is alive fast fascinating that is ah the God is there. 09:56.75 Elena Mateos Place is alive. Yeah, and it has the God in it. You know the God is there because what? yeah what makes life able to exist is precisely that that the God is busying from time to time. So maybe that is. 10:10.72 alan The deities are there. They lend please. 10:14.97 Elena Mateos Yeah, no, not maybe do have this beautiful compass you know and with such amazingteny or that can be seen from very far away but you are not interested in that because you are hunted metres away from that you have a tiny tiny hole. With horrible irregular walls you know and you choose to paint in there and that is amazing. That is amazing. Yeah, there is life. There. The date is are there they are busying so you want them to be there. They do want them not to forget that place. 10:35.12 alan That is and that is because there's life there. Deities are there and one has the sense. So. It's a memorable place and. You want to commemorate that visit with the imagery that you emblazon on the walls of the rock art. 11:02.90 Elena Mateos Yeah I somehow don't believe that this commemoration is time of invocation. You know? yes when you paint the the sides symbols or the motivetifs that are related to that god precise god for example, the face of Cleo the moon. 11:09.81 alan Invocation. 11:17.34 alan Yeah. 11:21.22 Elena Mateos The dear etc you are telling them hey come here, come here. Do not forget this place. Okay, a come back. Let's talk I will give you offers come on. Come back here. You know because when you have depicted those images are yeah in my opinion it is yeah. 11:29.36 alan Yes, so it's an invocation. Not a It's a it's an in. It's an invitation and in no no, no I get you I get you I find that to be fascinating and interesting. Yes, yeah, so. 11:40.62 Elena Mateos If it. 11:47.19 alan By capturing these images emblazoning them upon the walls of the of the particular shelter or cave or what have you? you're inviting those gods and goddesses into that place. You want to have the power power remain you want to have the power grow. 11:53.23 Elena Mateos I. 11:58.56 Elena Mateos Yeah, yeah. 12:05.46 Elena Mateos Yeah, that's that's my my what I propose the my Ph D tesis. Yeah, that's my totally my takeaway. Yeah I do believe that because after having been there, you know sitting and contemplated contemplating those places for many many years you know and just sit there. You are. 12:06.40 alan In that place that you that's your that. That's that's your takeaway. 12:25.32 Elena Mateos Juni Water drive there and oh my God This is an amazing place because I feel fresh and I feel. Ah ah a a win in here. You know I can't be refresh here. It's a special place. It has something special. Maybe it's not the abuse. Maybe it's not the world but is. Ah, something else. You know that cannot be explained and of course water is there and not in every case but cavities are in there So either water or cavities are present in there. So either. You can communicate because through those cavities your voice is going to reach. The deities that are hidden in the inside of the mountains or or or just super happy because you have water you know? yeah. 13:02.95 alan Ah, yes, yes, they're the conduits of the tethers. Yes, yes because you've got the cracks in the rocks you've you've got the holes in the rocks or the protuberances or the concavities cavities Their're entrances into the underworld. 13:14.52 Elena Mateos Yes. 13:22.61 alan And in turn it's the ah it's the connection between the the natural and the supernatural and. 13:30.96 Elena Mateos Yeah, so ah, basically after after 10 years of investigating I came to the to the conclusion that we are thirsty and we're happy when we see water and we want to celebrate those places. 13:42.16 alan Ah I love it I love it. Well I I think that's the I think that's the takeaway. Yes Elena god bless you thanks for? Thanks for sharing your reflections and your wonder. 13:43.00 Elena Mateos So yeah, we yeah we need to come back to our to ourselves. God Bless you. 13:57.99 alan And your passion for rock art see on the flip flop gang. Oh thank you. 13:59.68 Elena Mateos Thanks for having me. Thank you very much.