00:00.00 Alan Hello out there in archeology podcast land this is episode episode one zero eight and we're talking to turtha muahhaba day doctor turtha muahhabi day all the way from guananawatso university in the wonderful country of Mexico and we're going to talk about iconicity. The ah sacred and the emotive potential of rock art doctor. Are you there for us. 00:29.46 Tirtha Um, yes I'm right here for you. Alan thank you once again for inviting me to talk on your podcast and I'm really excited to look forward to talking to you he yes. 00:35.40 Alan Well this is yeah and this is the different. This is the first time we get to see each other. We get a video with it. This is exciting. Yeah, so we have a remarkable book coming out. Don't we and and it's and it's good. It. 00:47.26 Tirtha Um, yes, of course it just got published. 00:53.50 Alan And it's called the iconicity of the uto as techens. Wow What a what a mouthful What the heck is I What the heck is iconicity. 00:58.28 Tirtha Yes, yes, Iconicity It's ah it's It's an um, it's an ambitious title but we did. We have been working a long time on this project and I guess we. Have de defineed iconicity. Well enough for the reader. We hope the reader finds the notion of icon is it interesting The fact that I the icons iconic tokens symbols so codes. Ah, however, you might want to call it. Are carried through generations of people who share the same linguistic and same cognitive environment to negotiate and it's a continuous. Cultural historical tradition of symbolism and expressions and you know so self-appraisal. Yes, yes, yeah, right? You know as as we have discussed it. 01:57.40 Alan If if if I if I use the terms indexical semiotics. What would what does that mean, what does that mean indexical femiotics. 02:11.16 Tirtha Already in the book at sufficient length and the index is a far more basic terminology for the visual representation or a visual sign. So Oh if we begin with the question. On the character of the sign. What does a sign mean what does a visual symbol mean we begin with um that we begin discussing the Index value the Indexal ah indexical. Property of of the visual sign. So. It's the basic visual sign. The Index refers to something um, concrete for.. For instance, it might be an animal form. Yes. 03:00.10 Alan It's ah it's it's it's right, right? It's an emblem. It's a hallmark. It's a it's a what it's a meaning of a meaning. There's something powerful here. That's a symbol that you can grasp and see and sense and taste but it has a power. 03:05.20 Tirtha Yes. 03:10.72 Tirtha Yes. 03:16.67 Alan Greater than it than it it than it has on the first appearance. There's much much more to it. Yeah please. 03:19.49 Tirtha Yes, right? Yes, we can put it that way that that that the index is the portal and we begin to understand the significance of the image through the index through the indexical. Ah, upfront indexical form of the visual sign. But then we go try to go beyond that we try to transcend the indexical properties in order to detect to understand to even institutionalize some of the meanings the deeper cultural meanings. That are inherent and that symbol the way it used to communicate to people who made those representations on the rocks in the first place and yes. 04:04.78 Alan So let's so let's let's give that let's give our audience something concrete. We've we've thrown a lot of words around give them some examples of of some of the the ah the icons that we might deal with when we're dealing with various cultures. 04:09.97 Tirtha Yes, yes. 04:19.50 Tirtha Yes, or we can think of to begin with if we refer to some of the meso american symbolism and 1 of the most important and most concrete symbols that comes to mind is that of the serpent. The snake and the snake index is something which we have been dealing with for a long time now. The snake index is visible in not just in the very prominent and intelligible aztic iconography the ah the snake index appears in very yeah. Rudimentary or vestigial outlier forms in in in the more ah fringe culture rock art specimens where you may just have a zigzagging line of of you know those wave formations on. 05:17.99 Tirtha In rock art on on vessels on on Clay pots which would be used to store water in a very desiccated environment. So therefore we. 05:29.73 Alan And we know and we and we know it also appears on textiles on basketry as ah as a a you know as a diagonal or a triangle itself. 05:37.65 Tirtha In all in all those decorative and sacred and you know cultural paraphernalia that that defines a culture. The the beliefs of that culture and it's it's really great to see how that particular index might. Evolve into more concrete forms like like a basic snake index in the uto. Ah second speaking peoples in their visual expressions and their cultural artifacts grows into the great here. 06:06.96 Alan Now if we now if right now now if we if we jump to the cultures of of let's say the desert west there is another some. There's another symbol that I would call an indexical animal and one that really interingers for thousands upon thousands of years 06:15.80 Tirtha Yes. 06:21.30 Tirtha Um, and. 06:26.36 Alan And it looks like a big horn sheep am I Correct yeah and. 06:33.53 Tirtha Of course the bigh horn sheep is is one of the chief ah valorized indexical animal that we have and and it's just the sheep is the index animal. It's a zoomorphic index. It's an animal index but it it it. It really transports us to the world of the Aztec Utah isteen symbolism the american desert withs were symbolism which suggests that the sheep is food that the sheep is sustenance that the sheep can be divine because it's it's a form in which the divine. Comes to comes to us we we we what we do is we attribute to continue to attribute significance to it and this was a very crucial point to which I wanted to draw attention to in today's conversation if you would allow me Alan the the fact that. 07:25.60 Alan Please. 07:28.81 Tirtha That that supernatural attribution to ah visual indexes this ah brings us to the to the point where we begin to ask? What's the relationship between a visual index and The. Emotive Symbolic meaning that that the visual object represents it does it in other words is is it Ah can we explain this ah indexical sign in terms of Referentiality. We cannot do that because there are so many um, interspersed non-referential elements in that visual Index It's it's a symbol of Fertility. It's a symbol of giving It's a symbol of provisions and. It is ultimately as a symbol of of a faith in of a belief that in in the universe in in nature that that there will be ah there will There is a protector. There's an there's an animal Master. So. 08:41.13 Tirtha My My question would be really for myself for for all research personal who have been investigating this notion of the relationship this not the notion but the relationship between an index and its symbolic value is Whether. Ah, there is a very concrete titer a concrete connection between the visual Index and the symbol can you know? Ah, let let me try to clarify myself I'm making myself book clear I believe I'm now beginning to believe that. That the sacred feeling that is inherent in a visual Index is not necessarily physically or manifestly related to the visual visual symbol to the visual index at all. This is. Why I say this is because when you consider the human-like gods the the anthropomorphs and the providers and and the pregnant big horn sheep For example, Ah, it's easier to understand what the symbol ultimately represents a divinity a provider. Ah spirit. But when it comes to the geometricals they are more simpler they're simpler. They're more elemental. They're scarce. They're minimalist and the only reason that these geometrical symbols They may be more complex as in Sand paintings. For example. 10:16.86 Alan Yes. 10:17.11 Tirtha Ah, more meaningful, but even when they appear on the rock. They continue to create that experience of wonder and beauty and something something very um, ah sacred even if we are not Conditioned. We feel. That it's ah it's it's it creates a kind of a very specific kind of experience for us in that setting. 10:45.66 Alan There's something very mysterious and compelling about the image. We sometimes we can't sometimes we can't put our finger on it. We we don't we we don't know exactly why we're feeling the way we're feeling but we do know there's there's something intense there. 10:47.38 Tirtha Yes, Yes, exactly. 10:59.26 Tirtha Um, right? Yes, yes yes. 11:02.87 Alan There's a tug. It's a tether. It's a it's how do how do you put this? It's some sort of ah ah, there's so an unction That's that's a good word. Um that that is calling us to a deeper understanding of what this symbol means. 11:11.79 Tirtha And that. Are here. 11:20.49 Alan And we I think we get a feeling that it's that it's something something grander than ourselves and has a transcendental quality. How's that. 11:21.58 Tirtha Um, yes, yes, yes, very very well saved alan you. You've just been able to describe for me. For example, when. Ah, the experience that we have when we look at these mae patterns the mae patterns for example and there are mat patterns the chakras the manddala however your way we call it in all this vast spread of religions. Across the world from from central Asia to Siberia and and into you know, consistent with a prehistoric migration with of the hapla groups as they have been described in the literature that there is this common ground of belief. And this common ah sense of of creating beauty out of simple patterns, simple circles and geometrical shapes and and they're all there for our contemplation isn't it something very strange and wonderful at the same time and. Very difficult to explain. Yes, yeah. 12:38.23 Alan Yet there yet there yet. There's something else implied and the something else implied is when you have a circle when you have a net a network when you have some sort of ah a conduit. It's leading somewhere. It's it's entwining you. It's. 12:51.19 Tirtha Um, right. 12:55.20 Alan Bringing you into another level of of environment or thinking or or some so yes, some some sort of other it's it's got an otherworldly feeling to it. 13:00.80 Tirtha 5 apress nation. 13:09.26 Tirtha Yes, I mean these are Attractors These are great attractors and and we visit rock art sites and we and we have a ah decorative Chakra in our home and on the wall. And we don't know why but but they have ah a certain effect on us whereas it is easier to understand. Yes. 13:28.47 Alan Yeah, why do yeah, why do why do people to this very day. Buy those little spider things that are the Indian things that that that they it's It's got a web or a nest and they hang it in their car. Why. 13:40.24 Tirtha Yes, right? Yes, yes, it's It's not just the shape of it. It's not just the the way it looks but it looks ah it makes us look at itself At. In a way which is different and you know this is why? Ah, we could call this this phenomenon in the human mind the rock art way of saying things. 14:11.20 Alan Right? You said you called it the archeology of emotions which which was which was surprising I'd never heard those terms joined in in the ever so that was really quite quite striking the archeology of um of emotions. 14:13.90 Tirtha Yes, yes. 14:21.96 Tirtha Yeah, right, there is in. 14:28.78 Alan And so I think I think I mentioned this to to Chris Webster when I had when I when he was interviewing me for my last. My last discussion with him and I said that there are these images on rocks that appear to be these figures that are. 14:40.81 Tirtha Are. 14:48.59 Alan Ah, leaping or growing or somehow coming out of cracks in the rocks right? And they're large and they're large they're and and they're obviously something of importance. They're beautiful. There's aesthetically pleasing and there's one. Ah. 14:53.60 Tirtha Right? Yes, yes. Yes, yes, and that they they make you feel contented. They make you feel whole. Yes, they make you feel yes and and in in indeed, the. 15:07.20 Alan Ah, yes, pleasant Yes, aesthetically pleasing and you and yeah, and yeah you say that's really beautiful. That's really interesting. Someone did a beautiful job of of ensconcing that image in just the right way. 15:18.96 Tirtha Yes, yes. 15:26.27 Alan That And what do we see off to the left just under that is a very small creature with their hands like this opening to the sky in a supplicant posture. Well, it's obviously that's that's explaining or. 15:37.40 Tirtha Right? right. 15:45.95 Alan Further explicating or or elucidating what's going on here that that little being is at is and is entreing this larger and image for help for healing for blessings for reassurance. 15:54.95 Tirtha Um, yes, right here? yes. 16:04.57 Alan All those things that we want as human beings does that make any sense. 16:05.91 Tirtha Oh yes, that's that's where it leads to I mean so we're not just dealing with an Index. We're dealing with an animated and interanimated property within that Index which is affecting us in a very strange way and. It. It might even be that this it is It is this very primordial sense of ah some one not just some thing but and not just some level of experience that we would call it that there is. Some one coming there and you know taking the seat and and and and then offering its deep bonding the bond of friendship. Yes to us? Yes, yeah. 16:46.83 Alan Yes. 16:54.42 Alan Let's leave it there. Let's leave it there. Yeah, that's good. That's that's like that's a good juncture to to ah catch a catch on the flip flop gang.