00:00.00 archpodnet You. 00:02.16 Tirtha Yes. 00:03.80 Alan Welcome back gang this is segment 2 of the rock art podcast with Turka Turtam mukahabadi the doctor and we're talking about indexical thinking. We're talking about semiotics. We're talking about the. Ah. Way the way of seeing in the way of understanding rock art and dealing with the concept of iconicity tertha why don't we continue to continue there. 00:30.78 Tirtha Um, yes, yes, the rock art. Um like ah, any other great art in different contexts and humanity has continued to be um. Continue to produce rock artists in all ages of art I guess if we can call it that way and and you know the phrase that we were just tossing around was the rock art way of seeing and and it's of immense significance because the rock art way of of seeing. Prompts us to question the positivist way of looking at things and even the whole western notion of of self-seeing things and the discourse that we have associated with with the with the appreciation of arts. Ah, for several centuries now I mean it's not wrong. It's it's just a different way of looking at things and this is this is important because we de westernize we we deu send tree size ourselves we d we depositivize ourselves in order to. To expect in order to immerse ourselves. It's and it's it's an immersive practice when you look at the world in the way the the native americans have been looking at this at nature for thousands of years at the way the siberian shamans would would look at. 01:58.44 Alan So we taught what we're talking about is an indigenouss perspectiveivism. We're talking about. We're talking about dismantling a linear way of thinking or a carte Cartesian way of thinking and one that's more holistic when that's more embracing in. 01:59.28 Tirtha I would look at nature would look at human destiny and and yes, yes, absolutely yes. 02:16.79 Alan The energies of the universe and somehow cosmically entwining with the rock art and understanding the world in a much more conceptual unified relationship oriented fashion. How's that. 02:21.61 Tirtha Um, yes, yes, yes. 02:37.38 Tirtha Yes, It's ah it's It's all that and it's more Graceful. It's more um it it makes you more Humble. It makes you more receptive. It. It makes you more of a human being rather than more of a um. Of a warrior of ah I mean we cannot rule rule out the history of conflicts. Sorry yeah, yes, yes, yes. 02:54.98 Alan So So so right, right? So So if we say if we think about it from the Judeo-christian ethic and you look at things scripturally it says that we're supposed to be masters of the Universe. We're supposed to be. We're supposed to own the resources and use them and. And engineer things for our own benefit that that that is that is that is right? that is contradictory to a indigenous perspective correct. 03:14.30 Tirtha Yes, yes, yes, it's It's basically a humanist idea. Yes, That's an that's an alternative and you know there's so. There are various ways and methods there. There are sciences associated with this position with this way of seeing things and and the the integrity of the process that the visual object the art object the sacred object. It's the way we look at the World. We look at deeper levels of ah of being we we could call it for the moment that the that the plants that that the that nature flowers. That the helloscinogenic antitheogenic properties of of plants and flowers and leaves and this day and they they they could influence us they could they could induce in us those visions I mean not necessarily because. Because Hallucinogens can can produce very extremely strange. Otherworldly alternated states of consciousness but but the but the sacred art is not merely about an altered states of consciousness and I think even the discussion in. 04:48.93 Tirtha In archeology which was which was you know, founded in in a sense by ah, the by the theorists on ah and toptics and phosphines and you know the form constants of rock arts as he used to call it. Ah, even even then. This this the the argument falls apart it disintegrates when when we consider the fact that that we are not talking just about an impression a visual impression an optical illusion we are talking about something emotive. We're talking about something that moves us and something that reassures us. And and therefore this is this invites us to think of a very different kind of psychology than that of the positivist psychological literatures. So so what about what about the rock art way of seeing things then. Rock Art we have seen things not not not only explains the way we look at rock art and rock art looks at us. It helps us to understand it helps us to appreciate to dig into the deep time religious consciousness. That might have attended the evolution of post palaolithic man. Our humanity. Yes. 06:09.84 Alan And absolutely that's that you hit the nail on the head Tertha because you can see that in the rock art rock art speaks speaks to speaks to those that want to listen or ask better and better questions and it and it shows us. 06:20.91 Tirtha Um, yes. 06:28.98 Tirtha Um, right. 06:29.20 Alan The values the ethics the the the salient elements of meaning that indigenous people had about the world. No I mean is it isn't isn't that way. Okay. 06:44.40 Tirtha Right? right? right? This this ah in the but that's exactly how when they visit their sacred spaces that the gods come in. Ah you know they come to bless them. They come to give them their. All the all their the fruits the the products the abundance the brain with them and this is what ah we repeatedly see in ah in all the all the great religions in in Japan you have to walk up a hill. In order to to come and ah stand you have to purify yourself wash your wash your hands wash your feet to your face and then come and stand in front of that. Ah, that cammi that spirit god who is there for you and he he and a. This this god will then listen to your prayers. It's this is exactly the same thing that's happening in in in the rock art clusters for the these native american peoples in their sacred baskets. This will guides the guide. This will be guiding. This will be ah. Ah, controlling ah conditioning the way we store our grain the way we hold water the way we ah as we serve food the the sense of community. 08:18.18 Tirtha Everything changes when you look at ah life and your relationship to another human being to the others to the to to every person when when you're looking at it with the eyes of of the rock art shaman of the of the rock ah believers. 08:34.65 Alan When you're looking at it with yeah with the eyes of God when you're looking at it as it as as a deity and you like you're asking. What do you want of me God What do you want of me deity. What what does? What? What are you trying to communicate how am I supposed to conduct my affairs and how will this affect me. 08:38.10 Tirtha And and this yes, exactly Yes, Yes, yes yes. 08:54.53 Alan And my family as I tried to live an ethical moral life that that reimburses you for what you've given me when I go and kill an animal you will show me what to do So I can show respect and acknowledge when I when I'm able to harvest. 08:57.10 Tirtha Um, yes, yes, yes. 09:09.71 Tirtha Exactly exactly? Yes, Yes, yes, yes, yes, it's It's so this So this. 09:13.23 Alan When I see the rain and the rain comes and I thank you for that blessing. 09:27.16 Tirtha The dt the rock art. You know the now wattle word for it since we are closer to this context the now wattle word for the divine spirit is that they also they like teotl total ah in in and tioto. 09:28.60 Alan Yes. 09:40.14 Alan To you tiato Yeah tiato. 09:47.80 Tirtha Yes, tiottle in in my anglophone pronunciations more like title. So The theoto is ah is a very interesting kind of presence and so again going back to or regressing to this idea of the visual Index. The the tiotal of the index if we were to call it that it's it's it does not ah exercise or impose. Its ah, its control over you. It's It's more like a mendicant. It's more like ah ah expecting you to help the Teotl out by receiving the tiot giving him a space in your heart or in your mind. And that changes the perspective of any ah conversation on transcendent presences and the symbolism of of religions and it it's it's. 11:01.27 Tirtha It's not and ah a very feary fierce exacting. It's it's I Ah I wouldn't It's like ah it's the commandments now. Let's think of the commandments. The commandments may be very strict on you but but ah. 11:19.83 Tirtha The idea that that God is love that God is wherever there is bonding friendship. Love the this. The texture of culture itself and the texture of culture itself. Takes on a very different kind of meaning and perspective when we are in Union with the presence of these deities and spirits who are part of ourselves who are not there in um, in the. In a space which is very far away and very transcendent and very heroic. It's it's it's It's a it's within the fabric of our lives. This is exactly why the rock art Visual index. Yes, they're part of. 12:04.00 Alan These these these these these deities instead of being distant are close and and they come to the basket they're on the rocks you can touch them. You can feel them. They're in the baskets they're on the textiles. 12:14.99 Tirtha They they they come to the basket they come in. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, So so this what. 12:22.58 Alan They're in the sky they're on the earth. 12:32.24 Tirtha This leads to the forest to is to question in what phase of human evolution did this sense of ah the presence of Deific Entities arise. In in what stage of evolution and I have been looking at it in you know it ah with some interest and I have not. It's It's a vast subject and you need an entire. 13:07.46 Tirtha Tom of literature to deal with how humans if they did migrate out of Africa if they out if you if you subscribe to the out of Africa Theory the first migrations of the l m and haplogroup steward. 13:28.90 Tirtha Towards asia to the near East and the the caspian sea and the Mediterranean and then towards more towards the east and then from there these different ah different stratas of ah civilizations that have. Come into being following these migrations the presence of neandatos one hundred and ten thousand years before ah present the the presence of neandertos the intermixture possible are not. It's in anthropology. There's no real. Evidence evident to mixture of homo sapiens with neand doubttle hoonian doubtal but there is evidence of the use of fire. There is from andcarated locations of community feasts communal fees getting together. Feasting the the the idea of food um eating together sharing contentment ah sitting around the fire or a heard these would have to be integral to. The to the phases in which the notion of a provider protector animal master ah, ah spirit of the res. Yes, so these are questions. Yeah. 14:49.90 Alan All all the ah all the above. Yes, but but the oldest rock art oldest rock art. We're now finding to be one hundred and ten thousand years old right? with those little scrapes on the on the rocks where they've got curvilinear meanders and. 15:01.65 Tirtha Here. Ah. 15:07.50 Alan Other things like that in caves. No, we don't know anything about that and then we think but then we think about neanderthals and those red blood those red blotches and then and the and the um the scrapes that are on those big huge hunks of red. 15:10.81 Tirtha Yes, ah yeah of which we do not really understand much you know? Yes, it's just and yes, yes. 15:26.68 Alan Hematite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:27.97 Tirtha Yes, and the and the bones and the fossil records. So so this might be pointing to a period before the harmon and datellus and the homo sapiens and the homo australopithecine when when the humans. Like two hundred three hundred thousand years ah before present when ah the the bi pedal ah prehensile enabled humans who are really beginning to take. 15:56.29 Alan Yeah, this the the seeds are being sowed of some of something greater than their individual self and let's leave it. Let's leave it there see on the flip flop gang for the next segment. 16:03.80 Tirtha Yeah, yes, right? Okay, thank you? okay.