00:00.00 archpodnet So. 00:01.30 Alan We're back gang this is your rock art podcast and we're talking about the meaning of meanings we're talking about rock art and it's um, the archeology of emotions the iconicity and dealing with how does the indigenous person. Think and what do these images on stone possibly communicate with what's their emotional value and what what can we see and feel and set from trying to understand them. Dr Tersa you're back. let's let's talk 00:35.68 Tirtha Um, yes. 00:38.40 Alan But some of the basic elements of religion that anthropologists have tried to thrust out from shamanism, Animism totemism All of go ahead. 00:47.90 Tirtha Um, yes, yes, um, so she absolutely so so these are these are various forms of the same human um intuitive. 01:05.37 Tirtha Intuitiveness. It's an intuitive ah way of you know, looking intuitive methodology intuitive epistemology. All the epistems are right there. So what? what does the human. Yeah. 01:16.62 Alan No, no, no and Animism is at the is at the heart of some of this and when we're thinking and we're thinking about sort of this indigenous ontology this in this indigenous way of thinking. It's ah it's an animistic way of thinking. 01:22.75 Tirtha Um, yes. 01:25.97 Tirtha Right? right. 01:33.68 Alan What do we? What do we mean by that. 01:36.61 Tirtha What we mean and maybe now we would have to ah take our departure with ah with the kind permission of more positive positivistically inclined. Thinkers on this point. Um, what do we mean by animistic intuition is that the human being had always had the ability to intuit into the presence of ah of a master spirit and a friend. And the giver this intuition of the other the intuition of that you know that Kami the shinto is tekami the the Qian as the chinese confucians would say it the deva as the as the. A hindu and the buddhist the bodhi satwas all the buddhas. The buddhas are all there and you know they are in the bonsai they're in the springs and they're in heaven and in the heart of man and woman the this intuitiveness if he if he. Call this a kind of intuitive intuitive process. You know, interestingly even clinical psychology is ah trying to cope up with this massive faith in the. 03:06.57 Tirtha Supernatural attributes which are completely illogical irrational and which do not have any basis in in what we when when we try to analyze how the the structure of human experience. But. But the the various very unexpected element in this question this and and what is what is very unexpected and surprising is that this intuitiveness into the presence of a supernatural Entity. With Supernatural Attributes may have a positive effect on well-being and human happiness and it's not necessarily creating a a crisis or anxiety. That not it Yes, and so. 04:02.37 Alan No, it's not not not at all I Absolutely not. And in fact, in fact, what they've found is is often people who have deep seated ah psychological or physiological or other problems. With depression or anxiety or other just overwhelming circumstances when they provide them with altered states of consciousness using some sort of a a medant of sorts where they where they see where they where they grasp and see and sense the supernatural. 04:22.20 Tirtha Yes. 04:28.23 Tirtha Yes, all those. 04:38.27 Alan It open. It makes them happy. Ah, it gives them so it gives them something to live for it shows them another side of the universe. 04:41.76 Tirtha Um, this yes. 04:50.37 Tirtha Um, yes, absolutely ah, fascinating. How um this the ancient civilizations or ancient peoples have been tapping into the resources of. Herbs and you know cybersibs The Ayahuasca The the peyote the That'sra. It's ah of course. 05:11.40 Alan And and and and even independent of these these other psychotropic entities right? we get there. We get there from dancing. We get there from singing. We get there from staying up for days on end and. 05:18.88 Tirtha Yes, yes, yes yeah. 05:29.76 Tirtha Yes, it's it's it's. 05:30.56 Alan And drumming and humming and we get we. We induce a state of of ecstasy. 05:37.27 Tirtha Yes, of of ah of of happiness or sharing the communal life and you know this this is this is such a wonderful aspect of human existence and you don't need the. You don't need the Thylocibin. You don't need the you don't need them but but you could use them. You could also use them and and it's even even you know chemical opioids will create a much tougher crisis for. 05:56.92 Alan Um, no Sir sir. 06:16.25 Tirtha Societies. Ah so there's no reason why we should ah castigate the practice of Hacinogenic Antiogenic you know substance users and why the law should not absorb. These elements for a better life and for and for medicineical uses. it's it's it's more medicinedical. It's more medicinedicinal I mean these are of course these are well-known facts. But but the the 1 thing that we cannot afford to lose sight off in this process. Is the emotive core the core of grace the core of of being attuned with supernatural attributes or entities. Who are not distant but who work who are so close to the texture for lives and and yes. 07:15.60 Alan A personal connection a supernatural connection touching feeling communicating the the the essence feeling a connection and and some sort of a a tether to those beings. 07:22.73 Tirtha PS. 07:31.30 Tirtha Yes, at 8 07:33.52 Alan That will allow allow one to be reassured of some sort of a largess right? Some sort of a. 07:38.93 Tirtha Um, the the yeah the the the attitudes that these beliefs provoke are are very redeeming. They they do not Provoke. Ah. Competition Jealousy fear and so you know exclusion but and and that's so that's how the hurt has been Ah, ah that there's the reason why the hurt has been at the center of. 08:02.43 Alan Bright. 08:13.35 Alan Right. 08:15.10 Tirtha Of human groups and you know there's but bonding. Yes, yes, yes, Yes, the. 08:17.73 Alan So then this gets us to animism. We're moving up to the next realm to shamanism and then we have a we have an intermediary a leader who spends and spends his or her life sort of becoming a a liaison between the supernatural. 08:33.27 Tirtha Yes, who is on the who's intermediary who is his he. So so let us we could call this this liazison this ah intermediary who is so. 08:37.57 Alan And then that's. 08:52.53 Tirtha Either gifted with or who is working on behalf of you to connect you to that to to those to those entities making it easier I mean that's even and that's not like um the. 09:12.76 Tirtha The the the the priestly control I Um I hate to call it that but the the fastest priestly cultures are not the same as the ah the shamanic doctors healers of The. Ah, indigenous peoples who who are leading a ah more you know, ah more of a less sedentary but also more hunter gatherer form of you know migratory. Yeah yes, and there they are not. 09:31.55 Alan Exactly. 09:41.50 Alan Yeah, it's somewhat It's much of a simpler work. We're connected much's more of a facilitator. 09:50.46 Tirtha Yeah, So so they're not building houses there. There are phases in this process of of human prehistory where where humans are moving around on animals are just ah you know moving from place to place in search of pastures. And they're carrying their beliefs with them and so this is. 10:11.78 Alan No, so so with this with this shamanistic legacy. You get these individuals who who bring down the rain or speak to the ancestors or they or they they they take the ancestral spirits and they speak. 10:21.34 Tirtha Yes, yes. Yes, yes. 10:30.76 Alan Speak to those that are living and provide them with a vehicle for their angst and concerns and sorrow and they ah they transform that that time that period to allow them to vent and and grieve and deal with their problems. 10:40.66 Tirtha Yes. 10:50.26 Alan And and feel better about themselves afterwards. 10:53.75 Tirtha They have dedicated their entire lives to just being a vehicle. Ah you know a receptor a channel for for these spirits and so they don't do anything else. Yes, yes yes. 10:58.88 Alan Yeah there there that they're the native. They're the native doctors and the and the Native Native psychologist and psychiatrists. Yeah. 11:10.86 Tirtha Right? Yes, and that's ah the the the the shaman is you know if he again if you look at that behavior. The shaman is is is dedicated he or she. Travels goes through Hardships Accepts hardships willingly is ah is an ascetic figure. Yeah, remains in isolation in order to come back and. 11:37.75 Alan Yes, yes. 11:47.86 Tirtha So That others can reintegrate with that ah structure of perceptions and so it's a very interesting phenomenon and the the the shaman can thus you Know. We are. We are really moving or transitioning to to draw to religious themes to studies and studies of religious transcendental nature where. 12:14.55 Alan Yeah. Now Now the moving up to the highest level we get to totemism now in Totemism. What happens occasionally is that it it comes full circle because they have a indexical animal an iconic. 12:39.27 Tirtha Yes. 12:39.39 Alan Ah, entity that that becomes their totem that they may see as some sort of an ancestral deity or animal human figure that they believe that they are descended from. 12:55.42 Tirtha That you yes you have compos composite forms as well. You have an animal human mixture you have mixed forms but but just come back to your main point Alan even in this kind of shamanic totoric. Ah. 12:57.65 Alan Right? right? right. 13:11.65 Tirtha We can call it assignment. We are assigning us an attribute a spiritual and personality or identity to an object in everything that that that that this the the shamanic religions the the indigenous. 13:19.77 Alan Yes. 13:28.80 Tirtha And original religions of the world have been doing the the reference point is the human ability to view. Um, an image of itself with more heightened spiritual. And supernatural attributes someone who is and who is like me but who is also not me but not self. Not not just as I am but who is like me and who understands me and who is my friend. And the this this elemental friend. Ah Mate Dt this is this is the contribution of the ancient religions. This is the contribution to the religions of the world and. This this gives or this kind of it kind of stagnates with a a and um, you may say for a moment for a more unambitious way of. Conducting yourself. It may lead to a denial of technology but no technology technology is integral to this to this way of saying things because but when you're using an atlaal to hunt when you're killing an animal in a certain way. So as not to give it pain and. 15:04.31 Tirtha To to maximize the the nutritive value of this gift that you have received from nature. These are these are integral to this worldview and they do not make you anti-technology they make. You use technology in a way in which you so you begin to see the presence of the dt in the technological equipment itself and believe me in and this in this place called Milpa Alta close to Mexico City and met this artist who has now whose works have been exhibited in in London and the museum of modern arts in New York and who has not been paid for exhibiting of course because he was not quote unquote famous but he is like a kind of. Now wat will speaking shaman and ah he he got a graduate degree in engineering from from Sheffield England and now he uses these small circuits our dewy nose and sensors actuators to make. 16:20.47 Tirtha Puppets of Catel Quaro the snake did and yeah palmma his name is ferdin palma and he you can see him we can look him up on Youtube but what palmma does what palmma told me you know, but we were just. 16:24.87 Alan Wow. Ah. 16:37.86 Tirtha Talking for that entire afternoon over a couple of beers and and Palma was telling me that the the sensors in in these electronic puppets. They did not react in the same way. On all locations in all instances of exhibitions and he says this from that same shamanic perspective that is when when the the circuit board. 17:05.14 Alan Wow. 17:13.71 Tirtha The the Arduino sensor is reacting to the environment in a way in which it seems that that there is a little so a total spirit hidden. Ah absolutely and and so. 17:23.99 Alan Ah, hidden in the censor. Got it I think I think that's you I think that's a great place to to quit. Okay, a gay gang but there'll be more coming God Bless you. But thanks for listening. Thank you terrtha. 17:36.25 Tirtha Um, yeah. 17:41.95 Tirtha Thank you. 17:43.80 Alan And see on the flip Flop Gang Bye bye.