00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show everybody this is the rock art podcast and if you're hearing my voice Chris Webster that means that I'm talking with Alan today and we don't have a guest on today's episode but that's because we have a lot to talk about so Alan welcome to your show. 00:13.30 alan Ah, oh Chris webster professor webster you're you're such a a wonderful resource and it's been such a blessing. We're on episode 111 and it's I just checked back and it's been I think it's been 3 years we've been doing this. 00:14.30 alan Ah, oh Chris webster professor webster you're you're such a a wonderful resource and it's been such a blessing. We're on episode 111 and it's I just checked back and it's been I think it's been 3 years we've been doing this. 00:30.79 archpodnet Yeah, something like that. Yeah, it's been a while so that's it's been a lot. Let me see I can look back at the first episode yeah was released on June Seventeenth Twenty Twenty so that was yeah, right in the middle of covid. 00:31.33 alan Am I correct man quite the journey. 00:32.33 alan Am I correct man quite the journey. 00:42.73 alan Wow! Yeah, so it's been ah, well, it's been very exciting. We've had people patch in from Spain from Australia from Southeast Asia and Mexico so we can. We can absolutely say it's ah international. 00:43.73 alan Wow! Yeah, so it's been ah, well, it's been very exciting. We've had people patch in from Spain from Australia from Southeast Asia and Mexico so we can. We can absolutely say it's ah international. 00:49.15 archpodnet Oh. 00:57.51 archpodnet Yep. 01:00.63 alan Um, platform and I want to veer off from exclusive rock art discussions on this episode on a subject that is related to what we've been speaking about has to do with the peepling of the Americas how's that Chris. 01:01.63 alan Um, platform and I want to veer off from exclusive rock art discussions on this episode on a subject that is related to what we've been speaking about has to do with the peepling of the Americas how's that Chris. 01:10.59 archpodnet Okay. 01:22.29 archpodnet That sounds great because I I mean there's there's been a lot of stuff lately in the news about ah and I mean news related to archeology articles and things like that. You know about this topic because it's a hot topic in North American Archeology it's one of the big unanswered questions at least to a lot of people that's an unanswered question to some people. It's a very well-answered question to others. It's not a very well-answered question. So yeah, there's ah, there's definitely a lot to discuss in this space. 01:47.34 alan Well, the the evolution is it's I think we're in the midst of seeing a tremendous transformation or what is called a paradigm shift you know for the longest time we believe that the platform or expression called the clovis tradition. 01:48.34 alan Well, the the evolution is it's I think we're in the midst of seeing a tremendous transformation or what is called a paradigm shift you know for the longest time we believe that the platform or expression called the clovis tradition. 02:01.57 archpodnet Ah. 02:06.83 alan Was the basement or the beginnings of the in migration to the Americas do you agree? yeah. 02:07.83 alan Was the basement or the beginnings of the in migration to the Americas do you agree? yeah. 02:13.40 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely and there's I feel like there's still people that kind of adhere to that to be honest with you. There's you know, definitely some proponents of that theory. Still yeah. 02:21.97 alan Oh I would have to agree but they're getting fewer and fewer because in the last year or 2 There's been some tremendous discoveries and they consistently have been pushing back. 02:22.97 alan Oh I would have to agree but they're getting fewer and fewer because in the last year or 2 There's been some tremendous discoveries and they consistently have been pushing back. 02:40.90 alan The age and character of the earliest expression of people in the Americas both in terms of geography and in terms of the ah actual typology of what that expression might mean archaeologically. 02:41.90 alan The age and character of the earliest expression of people in the Americas both in terms of geography and in terms of the ah actual typology of what that expression might mean archaeologically. 02:53.31 archpodnet Ah. 02:59.97 archpodnet Right. 03:00.71 alan And um so I think um to discuss this you kind of have to know what the what the issue was and what the traditional model has said the traditional model was that that there was a migration. 03:01.71 alan And um so I think um to discuss this you kind of have to know what the what the issue was and what the traditional model has said the traditional model was that that there was a migration. 03:19.45 archpodnet Ah. 03:20.62 alan About thirteen thousand years ago across the bering straits and people ah the peling of the Americas was ah channeled through a corridor an ice free corridor between the glacial masses and that the people came through. 03:21.62 alan About thirteen thousand years ago across the bering straits and people ah the peling of the Americas was ah channeled through a corridor an ice free corridor between the glacial masses and that the people came through. 03:40.28 alan And then they ah they had an initial almost an explosion of archeological expression all across the Americas both North Central and South America and uniformly that tradition was associated with. Ah. 03:41.28 alan And then they ah they had an initial almost an explosion of archeological expression all across the Americas both North Central and South America and uniformly that tradition was associated with. Ah. 03:54.60 archpodnet Ah. 03:59.30 alan Ah, kind of projectile point at dart point that was fluted. It had a um, a mass of stone taken out of its base. They were ah lancellate ah mainly concave base points and this particular expression. 04:00.30 alan Ah, kind of projectile point at dart point that was fluted. It had a um, a mass of stone taken out of its base. They were ah lancellate ah mainly concave base points and this particular expression. 04:15.82 alan Was associated with at least in some instances with the hunting of mega fauna is that what you learned as well. Yeah, tell me a bit. Yeah, so when you look at the projectile points called Clovis. Ah. 04:16.82 alan Was associated with at least in some instances with the hunting of mega fauna is that what you learned as well. Yeah, tell me a bit. Yeah, so when you look at the projectile points called Clovis. Ah. 04:23.12 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah I believe so that's about right. 04:34.60 alan They are. They have an odd distribution in North America in that they are mainly concentrated in the area of the southeast in Texas and the american southwest and on the plains and as you go west the expression becomes. 04:35.60 alan They are. They have an odd distribution in North America in that they are mainly concentrated in the area of the southeast in Texas and the american southwest and on the plains and as you go west the expression becomes. 04:52.10 archpodnet Ah. 04:54.40 alan Less and less. So in other words, if you're looking if you're looking for clovis points in the far west in the great basin. Um up into the northwestern part the pacific northwest and in California along and the desert west in California. 04:55.30 archpodnet Yeah. 04:55.40 alan Less and less. So in other words, if you're looking if you're looking for clovis points in the far west in the great basin. Um up into the northwestern part the pacific northwest and in California along and the desert west in California. 05:14.17 alan You can hardly find any of them. There's very few sites. They're all isolates. Go ahead. Yes. 05:15.17 alan You can hardly find any of them. There's very few sites. They're all isolates. Go ahead. Yes. 05:15.75 archpodnet No, you can't and you know you see that in the literature. Yeah, yeah, we we actually found an isolated um clovis point in a 2 track in Northern Nevada north western nevada it was in a 2 track and cracked in half because somebody had driven over it. So I don't know if it was if it had just been uncovered through time on that road or if it had been you know dropped there by the hoof of ah a cow or something like that or or what happened. But yeah, that's on on big surveys I've done across the state. That's the only one I've ever even heard of getting found and it was um, just not just not a lot The thing you find more of which I think you're alluding to that's pretty clovis is western stemmed and you know we see we see a lot more of those out here but still not that many when you start going back that far. 06:02.57 alan Right? So a couple of things. There's a there's a controversy as well in the far West involving what they call concave base or basically thinned projectile points. 06:03.57 alan Right? So a couple of things. There's a there's a controversy as well in the far West involving what they call concave base or basically thinned projectile points. 06:14.21 archpodnet Ah. 06:19.97 archpodnet Yeah. 06:20.86 alan That have been called fluted points in the past and some of the archaeologists I would say even growing evidence seems to support that those particular points that are found in ah some abundance I would say. 06:21.86 alan That have been called fluted points in the past and some of the archaeologists I would say even growing evidence seems to support that those particular points that are found in ah some abundance I would say. 06:40.60 alan In certain areas are derivative of clovis they are not contemporaneous with clovis yet they are a ah derivative expression whereby Clovis itself is supposed to be a a projectile point tradition that in the main was ah. 06:41.60 alan In certain areas are derivative of clovis they are not contemporaneous with clovis yet they are a ah derivative expression whereby Clovis itself is supposed to be a a projectile point tradition that in the main was ah. 06:45.10 archpodnet Ah. 06:50.82 archpodnet Rent. 06:58.79 alan Soft Hammer percussion or percussion flaight. They have these flakes that go across the face of the clovis they're called utrapase or ah, just going across the entire face of the of the point and um, this particular tradition of doing that. 06:59.79 alan Soft Hammer percussion or percussion flaight. They have these flakes that go across the face of the clovis they're called utrapase or ah, just going across the entire face of the of the point and um, this particular tradition of doing that. 07:10.12 archpodnet Ah. 07:18.36 alan And also the way in which they were manufactured technologically ah did not use the fine pressure flaking that you find in these other places that are available. Ah you know in the far West There's a you know concentration of them. 07:19.36 alan And also the way in which they were manufactured technologically ah did not use the fine pressure flaking that you find in these other places that are available. Ah you know in the far West There's a you know concentration of them. 07:35.00 alan And the great basin. There's some in the Southern San joaquian valley they're found ah, where else are they found. They're found in the great basin as well. So um, there's all of that. So this was ah you know part and parcel of sort of a related controversy surrounding. 07:36.00 alan And the great basin. There's some in the Southern San joaquian valley they're found ah, where else are they found. They're found in the great basin as well. So um, there's all of that. So this was ah you know part and parcel of sort of a related controversy surrounding. 07:45.38 archpodnet Ah. 07:53.73 alan What's what is clovis what is ah what do they? What's the definition of clovis and what makes a clovis projectile point and how long how old was clovis is it thirteen five to twelve Eight or is it. You know up until the end of the pleistocene. How long did it? endure. 07:54.73 alan What's what is clovis what is ah what do they? What's the definition of clovis and what makes a clovis projectile point and how long how old was clovis is it thirteen five to twelve Eight or is it. You know up until the end of the pleistocene. How long did it? endure. 07:54.96 archpodnet Right. 08:07.48 archpodnet Red. 08:12.71 alan Etc so most of the radio carbon dates really show a very distinctive and short chronology. Go ahead, you gonna ask me something Chris. 08:13.71 alan Etc so most of the radio carbon dates really show a very distinctive and short chronology. Go ahead, you gonna ask me something Chris. 08:19.54 archpodnet Ah. 08:24.46 archpodnet Yeah, the well I think I figure I feel like it's good in this segment to point out too that you know we're obviously talking about native americans if somebody didn't get that point already. But I don't know of any native american tribes that have traditions. For their origin going back that says they migrated from Siberia you know what I mean all of their traditions say they basically started here. They sprung up in the in the in North America south America wherever the tribe is and that they came here so and I think that's an important point that you know. They don't have it in their oral traditions that they migrated I'm going to bring that up a little bit later with an article I read just just a few days ago that's going to come into play there but that's ah, that's interesting to me that there's nothing about that and do you know if there's anybody any tribes or organiz or or I guess traditions or even rock art for that matter. From like the inuit and you know up in Alaska in that area where they do have traditions of migration across um across the land bridge across the bering straits I guess. 09:27.26 alan No I think you're right I think that that particular scenario that set of oral traditions um is certainly infrequent if not absent completely and and and that ah in itself is interesting. 09:28.26 alan No I think you're right I think that that particular scenario that set of oral traditions um is certainly infrequent if not absent completely and and and that ah in itself is interesting. 09:40.39 archpodnet Right. 09:47.30 alan 1 of the things we ought to talk about with that corridor which is rather important is um, it wasn't really open until about I would say in the neighborhood of fourteen thousand years ago so 09:48.30 alan 1 of the things we ought to talk about with that corridor which is rather important is um, it wasn't really open until about I would say in the neighborhood of fourteen thousand years ago so 09:53.96 archpodnet Ah. 10:04.48 alan To to move along that land bridge and to get into North America you had to move through ah an ice-free corridor and that icefree corridor wasn't open until fourteen thousand years ago so again that supported that supported that the the particular model. 10:05.48 alan To to move along that land bridge and to get into North America you had to move through ah an ice-free corridor and that icefree corridor wasn't open until fourteen thousand years ago so again that supported that supported that the the particular model. 10:16.23 archpodnet Right. 10:23.60 alan of of clovis being the first people that came into the Americas made sense right. 10:24.60 alan of of clovis being the first people that came into the Americas made sense right. 10:28.35 archpodnet And it does make sense and I got to say to be honest I hate to see what that corridor would have looked like because after being covered by ice and then now melting ice and just soggy tundra. You know I mean there's definitely like forests and things like that in Northern Canada but going down through the ice tree corridor I mean I've been in that part of Canada Calgary Alberta it is flat and it is it is you know it would have been difficult to navigate being a soggy, probably full of tiny little lakes and ponds you know land so that would have been tough. It would have been a a journey. 10:50.98 alan Um, yeah. 10:51.98 alan Um, yeah. 11:01.62 alan Absent No at no yeah, no absolutely. Um, they've done so studies on the biogeography within that corridor and there was you know Mega fauna moving up into that corridor including you know, bison, etc. 11:02.62 alan Absent No at no yeah, no absolutely. Um, they've done so studies on the biogeography within that corridor and there was you know Mega fauna moving up into that corridor including you know, bison, etc. 11:05.51 archpodnet Yeah. 11:10.65 archpodnet M. Sure. 11:19.52 alan Probably a lot of waterfal so that that does make some sense to follow the herds of game and to associate with that I think with that we should ah sort of close out this first sort of piece of the discussion. 11:20.52 alan Probably a lot of waterfal so that that does make some sense to follow the herds of game and to associate with that I think with that we should ah sort of close out this first sort of piece of the discussion. 11:22.49 archpodnet Yeah. 11:28.90 archpodnet Right. 11:37.10 alan And the next discussion we'll we'll move into some other related matters. How's that see in the flip flop gang. 11:38.10 alan And the next discussion we'll we'll move into some other related matters. How's that see in the flip flop gang. 11:41.69 archpodnet Sounds good.