00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode 111 and I'm talking to alllan about the peopleling of the Americas and what kind of evidence. We really have around that and how far back this evidence goes so let's talk about some of the some of the more hard evidence to pre-cloviss sites that we do have in this country and. 00:17.93 alan Um, so. 00:19.36 archpodnet And notably up here in the in the western United States 00:21.61 alan In the pacific northwest is where I think much of this original material has come from. There's at least 2 sites that have very robust evidence meaning what they have is is is seal deposits that have. 00:30.93 archpodnet Ah. 00:41.14 alan You know, incredibly goody with many many many dates and an associated assemblage that's different from clovis so in other words, what we found now is a stratum. Archaeological you know, sort of ah, an assemblage of deeply buried or chronologically specific materials that I would say started about fourteen thousand years ago but go back to maybe as much as 20 or twenty one thousand years ago and that are well dated now when I say well dated. There's you know, multiple multiple dates all kinds of dates radiocarbon dates plus they're sealed deposits that are buried under Mazama Ash or other volcanic ash. That's been dated. 01:36.50 archpodnet Yeah. 01:37.18 alan And what they found is instead of find instead of finding clovis points. There's an absence of clovis points and a presence of what we're calling Western stemmed points. They look like the other points that are called Western stemmed. 01:51.67 archpodnet Right. 01:55.75 alan And people had thought early on that the western stemmed points were in fact, the basil occupation in the Americas but that particular perspective went by the by with the growing evidence for clovis but now we go full circle. 02:10.58 archpodnet Oh. 02:15.60 alan And we have you know lots of evidence now mainly for the pacific northwest but also from South America Monteverde um for seal deposit and these western stem projectile points. We don't have much more. We don't have a full picture of what was going on. But first of all, what's what's happening here is that the way in which the the channel or the method of migration. From the old worlds that to the new would no longer have been terrestrial and that's that's you know, quite ah, quite a transformation in thinking because after because fourteen thousand years ago that corridor was blocked. 02:53.69 archpodnet Ah. 03:00.40 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:02.76 archpodnet Yeah. 03:10.91 archpodnet Right. 03:11.53 alan So we're talking about is a maritime expression that came pre clovis and brought people to the Americas which it which is absolutely amazing. 03:27.10 archpodnet Yeah, and we always talk about America's plural right? because we're talking about north America south America central america all the Americas right? And that's a thing that always kind of gets me too is it's um. 03:29.90 alan Bright. So. Yeah, we are. 03:40.45 archpodnet You know? do we talk about? Okay so they you know we we have solid evidence of people in the pacific northwest Fourteen Thousand years ago right that's and and maybe even a little bit older but solid evidence going back 14000 years but we also have very similar evidence going back a similar timeframe down in South america and it's like. Okay, well they didn't come down here and then walk eight Thousand miles to get to South America in the span of like you know a generation. So either. They came here way earlier than we thought and migrated throughout the Americas and eventually made it down all the way through South America 04:01.27 alan Ah, exactly no no. 04:12.40 archpodnet Or they came over in different ways at different times using different methods right. 04:15.52 alan Right? So that's the other thing that's that's become rather manifest is that there must have been multiple origin points throughout the continents of how they came in and where they came in and when they came in there also must have been. 04:24.31 archpodnet Yeah. 04:31.52 archpodnet E. 04:34.45 alan Different traditions in terms of what they were focused upon um, in some areas it appears and there's been arguments tendered that what the pacific northwest may have been a very logical place to sort of enter North America um following some of the riverine corridors in other ways because there was a lot of lakes a lot of lucustrian and and they're look. They're looking at a lot of the waterfowl and the waterfowwl would probably have been just innumerable just masses and masses of birds. 05:01.20 archpodnet Right. 05:13.20 alan Does that make any sense. 05:15.43 archpodnet Yeah, it does it would have been certainly a resource that would have been plentiful. You know, not only that but you know fish and other um other things you just find near those marine and and like you said Lucussterin environments I mean there's just it's just an abundance of things to eat. 05:29.97 alan Yeah, yeah, so if you're looking for things to eat like they like you know if what we've found even at the 10000 year benchmark when people live near lakes and rivers. They tend to go for the low-lying fruit. 05:31.44 archpodnet So would have been easy. 05:48.76 alan What do they eat Chris if they're looking for food near lakes or rivers. 05:50.20 archpodnet Ah. 05:57.30 archpodnet Ah, well I mean I would say fish and berries and things like that. What are what are we looking at. 06:01.57 alan Run Well what they do is they you know those? ah things they that have ah cattails and tubers and those boldest things they can pull pull out of the ground they're They're not very. 06:11.73 archpodnet Yeah, indeed. 06:18.17 alan They're not very lively in terms of being hugely. You know nutritious but you know what they'll give you a a full belly So when you pull them up. You can you can pound them. You can roast them. You can do whatever you want to do with them and you'll have a full meal. 06:29.70 archpodnet Um. 06:37.65 alan And it didn't take you long to acquire it. So when they're looking at copper lights from ten thousand years ago they're full of these tubers and these bulbs from those lacustrian ah you know vegetation because they're easy to harvest. 06:42.10 archpodnet Ah. 06:56.31 archpodnet That makes sense. Yeah. 06:57.78 alan And they and they will fill. They will fill you up cold calorically um and also you you get the ah the the waterfall now what 1 of us right? exactly. 07:07.14 archpodnet Yeah, and it makes you wonder why? they even left it all and kept migrating. 07:14.75 alan Yeah I think when they found those lakes and rivers. They they found a a windfall and so they could they could live there for quite a while and um, maybe maybe they were there for quite a while. Um, at at those places the pacific northwest they've got fourteen fifteen sixteen thousand 07:24.30 archpodnet Ah. 07:26.62 archpodnet Yeah. 07:34.36 alan Year old dates. Um, now. What I've heard off the record but somewhat you know, not sort of a you know, ah sort of as an aside there appears to be some dates for daisy cave on the channel islands. That may go back 16 17000 or more years ago. Um, and if that is and if that is the case then that's another example of watercrafts a maritime economy. They came there and they stayed and they obviously. 07:54.81 archpodnet Wow. 08:11.27 alan Came there at boats and lived and you know took advantage of the resources such as they were on those islands at that. Go ahead. 08:21.72 archpodnet You know I wonder if they really if they really date to 16 17000 years I don't know how deep that channel is between like you know the long beach area and the channel islands. Um I mean the water would have been much lower because you know a lot of it was still sucked up into the ice caps. So um I wonder. 08:29.90 alan Bright. 08:36.40 alan Get. 08:39.60 archpodnet They couldn't necessarily walk to the channel islands I'd imagine but it would have been a heck of a lot shallower and a smaller a smaller so expanse to traverse by boat. 08:48.23 alan Yeah, and and you can always traverse that area in a boat. They do right now Even at this point Um, it's It's not that far away and if you've got the islands. You've also got the ah the terrestrial the coast there to add to your repertoire. 08:52.11 archpodnet Oh sure. 09:01.77 archpodnet Yeah. 09:05.10 alan In terms of subsistence. So it's ah, interesting nonetheless. Um, one of the things people talk about a lot which is kind of related to this thinking is that they they there's a type of an artifact called a crescent. And it's and it's it's just sort of ah a stone piece that kind of looks like a ah crescent moon and it's only about as big as my thumb or in in that realm and there's hundreds thousands of them scattered mainly ah always in lacustrian environments around lakes. 09:35.50 archpodnet Yeah. 09:43.39 alan And other water sources and so there's been an extensive argument made that because of their distribution that they may have been associated with the ah hunting of waterfall have you heard that. 10:00.30 archpodnet Ah, no I don't have much ah knowledge from that down in that area. But that's pretty interesting. Yeah. 10:05.32 alan Um, what they what they have hypothesized is that they were attached to arrows as bunts transverse projectile points in other words, kind of so that they would knock the. Animals out of the sky and and then they would harvest them and kill them like the geese and the swans and the ducks and yeah and um, also during certain times of the year this water the waterfowl would congregate. 10:23.79 archpodnet Ah. 10:29.70 archpodnet Um, wow. 10:39.95 alan And they would lose the ability to fly and you could simply net them in in huge numbers and then harvest them. Yeah yeah, the the gre the gres are 1 example of that those are those you know, kind of funny little birds that. 10:44.97 archpodnet Um. 10:59.28 alan Sit up lakes and are brown or black and um, that's what happens? Um, yeah, and um, so that's a whole other aspect of this exercise. Um, the. 11:01.46 archpodnet Yeah, wow, That's cool. 11:16.98 alan Locations in the pacific northwest of where those sites are seem to be a channel along the Columbia River and that would be a logical sort of inlet for these. Ah, the inmigration to occur and then if you're um. 11:29.76 archpodnet Ah. 11:34.96 alan You know it's interesting I guess I could share this too I hadn't thought about it now. But since I'm working in this area etc. Um, using obsidian hydration dating. Okay, we've talked about that often. It's the volcanic Las can be used to date. 11:52.90 archpodnet Remp. 11:54.94 alan You can take a thin section out of it and it picks up water and the thickness of that band is ah, an artifact of a measure a calendar of its age. Um in the pacific northwest and in California they've done tremendous amounts of work. On calibrating the ages of all the different obsidian sources and they've done source specific temperature adjusted upsidian hydration dating. So they've gotten it more and more refined. Okay. And when you look at the ages of the the largest rimmed artifacts from the various quarries. They go back 16 and 17000 years old there aren't very many of them that go back that to that age. But there are those rims. 12:31.89 archpodnet Ah. 12:41.85 archpodnet My. 12:48.78 alan And they are that size and we have found them ah in both in the archeological record up in Oregon and in California so if that measure was accurate. Here's a testament to the antiquity of the occupation. 12:53.96 archpodnet Okay. 13:07.48 alan And the initial use of those areas does that make any sense. 13:10.98 archpodnet That does and I think with that we'll take our final break and because I've definitely got some questions about that on the other side back in a minute.