00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to episode 101 of a life in ruins podcast where we investigate the careers of those living the life in ruins I am your host Carl not Carlton I am your host Connor John and I am joined by my co-host David Howe Carlton is celebrating. Ah. Passing his comp thing something he he's out having a good time. Um, so he will not be with us today but we are lucky to have Dr Dr Angela Perry here who's a visiting our assistant professor of anthropology at the university of Nevada Las Vegas she's a senior archeologist with paleoest and a research associate with the paleogenomics and bio archeology and a research associate with the paleogenomics and bio archeology research network at the University Of Oxford she received her undergraduate degree. And the pacific northwest at Portland State University and her ph d at durham university in the u k Dr Perry studies the relationship between humans and their environments animal domestication and the genetic and morphological origins of dogs. Her work has been published in many. Exceptional academic journals as well as featured in The New York Times national geographic and the Bbc thank you so much for joining us today sorry that was a mouthful. 01:18.95 Angela Thanks for having me I mean some of that is hard to get through I get it. 01:25.90 David Um, yeah, so I think for the audience. Um I'll just say I met you in Rome I think was the first time I think I officially met you right. 01:36.53 Angela Whoa whoa I totally forgot about that. Yes I think that is the first time we we met what a random place to meet. 01:43.70 David Really right? Yeah and like not a lot of people spoke like english there I didn't know them so I was like okay I want to talk to Angela about my career. That's very terrifying. Also she's the only other person here that kind of speaks english so I should probably just talk to her and yeah, so we had that chat. But. 01:48.33 Angela No. 01:59.00 Angela True I mean that was a good conference. Also that was a really good conference. 02:03.60 David Yeah, um, it was that was like 1 of the coolest things we've ever seen like passing the mic around arguing about like dog art in different languages. Yeah yeah was pretty sweet. Um. 02:11.60 Angela I Mean a whole conference about dogs for me is amazing. 02:20.57 David Also just left to go tour stuff too half the time. But um, oh good. Yeah, good new thing about that. Um, so I guess we can just get into it. Um, so like were you like a dinosaur kid like a science kid or like. 02:22.65 Angela When in Rome you know good on. Yes. 02:38.89 David You like worms or something. 02:39.15 Angela Yeah, ah so I'm an only child and that meant that I had to entertain myself a lot luckily from a pretty young age. My grandma had gotten me a national geographic subscription and so. You know it was like my great joy every month I would get my national geographic I would pull like it didn't matter what it was whatever big poster came in it would go immediately onto the wall I mean I read it cover to cover. Um, and I was also. Deep deep into girl scouts I mean I was like on the girl scout council I was like lifelong girl scout I was very into camping hiking outdoors bugs just nature. All of it. Um, also my grandparents are farmers in Kansas and so I'd spend a lot of the year just like a farm just roaming around finding you know ponds of tadpoles and like random cats giving birth in the barn I mean just like you know random stuff and so I was just a kid who was into like weird things and like I didn't have any older brother or sister to tell me like. What are you doing like so I just was free. You know just going for it and yeah, very into national geographic variant in nature outdoors all that kind of stuff. 03:56.99 David Julia. 03:57.74 archpodnet So yeah, so you obviously you guys David and you know each other because you're both interested in dogs did you have a dog growing up is that where you kind of get this love for dogs I guess. 04:10.52 Angela Yeah, you know when I was born. My parents had a dog already. So I've never known a life without a dog always had dogs always been like a dog person like I said being an only child like my dog was kind of like you know my sibling and so. Yeah I I was always very into dogs and yeah then I guess I just found a way to make dogs a career and got really lucky. 04:41.50 David Well yeah, that's awesome I think a lot I would say we should probably do data on this but like 75% of our guests were like had national geographic books or magazines and just like read them all the time um or watch the same shows and stuff. But yeah, that's awesome. Childhood sounds like. 04:54.52 Angela Yeah. Yeah I don't even know I mean I can't understand a life without growing up without pets especially a dog. It's just like yeah how what happens. 05:01.30 David Um, think I've always had a dog too and a cat. But. 05:14.52 Angela Like how where does where how do you entertain? an only child first of all without a pet. 05:17.65 David Yeah, like I usually just talk to my dog instead of talking to myself. So like I don't know what that would be like with just being an only child and no dog. Um, yeah, so you went to I guess Portland state I know you're. 05:21.35 Angela Yeah. Exactly yeah. 05:35.98 David You were living up there too right. 05:36.39 Angela Yeah, so I had a I have a very weird nontraditional academic path that is yeah it it bifurcates a lot. It splits it stops. It goes. Um I like all people usually you know I I grew up in Las Vegas most people are like oh that's cool. That's that's great like didn't you want to stay there but like everyone right, you never want to stay in the place that you're from and that you grew up you like just want to get out and go do something so as soon as I as soon as I graduated from high school I immediately went to oregon state and. Like everyone who read national geographic growing up right? I I was convinced I was Goingnna bring marine biologists because that's what you do right? Of course we're all going to be marine biologists and it's going to work at you know Seaw worldl and whales and dolphins was just like I was gonna live the life. 06:18.70 David Oh. 06:30.14 Angela Um, so I went to oregon state I was enrolled like I was a biology undergrad and I was like here we go. Um I got you know a couple of years into my undergrad there and I just was like maybe this isn't for me like I'm not really loving it I don't love school. Like my biology classes are okay and I started being like what what am I gonna do with an undergrad biology degree. What do you do with an undergrad aal and I started spiraling and then I was like you know what? I just stopped I stopped going to school I moved to to Portland and I was a bartender and. Working at you know, clothing stores and just for years just that's that's what I was doing thought about going back to school and then was just like no I don't know what I would want to do so I'll just do this I'll just keep being a bartender working in Portland um, and then yeah one day I decided okay I'm ready i. I'm a strong believer and um I love the european system of like taking a year off and just kind of like traveling and like figuring out life. Um I wasn't the type of person who needed to go to university like eighteen I had no idea what I wanted to do. Um I was super confused I was taking all kinds of classes all over the place. So I ended up going back to school at Portland State um much later I mean I think I I restarted when I was twenty seven or Twenty eight my undergrad at Portland State so I took a good chunk of time. Um, off and went back. Yeah. 08:03.80 David As it. Oh you go. 08:05.12 archpodnet As you say it was it what kind of inspired you to to finally get back into Academia was it. 08:14.84 Angela Yeah I think I think I had had enough of being a server in a our tender in Portland right? I I was kind of I always like I I liked school I was good at school I got straight a's but it was hard for me to work towards a degree when I didn't know what I wanted to do. 08:19.47 David But. 08:34.46 Angela And I like a lot of people kept changing majors and like taking a couple of these classes realizing I didn't like it taking a couple of these classes really, it's saying I didn't like that and I was just like taking endless classes paying endless money for an undergrad degree when I just didn't know what I wanted to do so. But I was living in Portland and decided you know what I'm gonna go back to school of Portland State I'm gonna start taking some like I'm gonna go back to my roots of national geographic right? and I'm gonna take some like anthropology classes I didn't really know what anthropology was um or. You know what I would do and I started out as a cultural anthropologist I was convinced I was gonna be a cultural anthropologist I was doing my kind of undergrad dissertation on romani gypsy population in Portland and I was working at a romani gypsy school and living with ah a family and doing kind of. Um, research with them and then one day I took yeah I mean it was great. It was really interesting but then one day I took intro to archeology with ah with Ken Ames the kind of like go to Pacific Northwest Hunter Gatherer guy and I just was. 09:27.21 David That's awesome. 09:39.57 Angela And never looked back. It was never the same after that I just knew I was going to be an archaeologist. 09:42.89 David Ah, yeah, it's prehistoric archeology is like what sucks people and I don't know why but I think everybody who intends to go into school to do like mayan or like Roman stuff then looks at stone tools and you hear about like ecology and you're like oh that's really cool and you just. Stick with it. Um. 10:03.74 Angela It's so good. It's just so it was so interesting and I think when you have professors who are very good at what they do and are genuinely interested and genuinely like interested in passing that information along to their students. It's just it's so addictive and you just. When you find professors that you like you just take all of their classes and you just like soak in their knowledge and that's how I was with Ken and Virginia Butler this so archeologist at Portland State um as well I took all of her classes and she's the one who like made me love so archeology and wanting to be as archaeologists. So yeah, then I decided from then on I was an archeologist and I took all archeology classes and then I got my degree. Finally. 10:48.24 David Awesome! ah. 10:49.11 archpodnet Yeah, did you do any sort of field work or lab work as part of um, your degree there. Yeah. 10:56.28 Angela Yeah, so I I did field school I actually did a historic field school at Fort vancouver um, there. So it's a historic kind of hudson bay company um for it. So that was interesting I definitely knew I wasn't into historics after that. But um. It was interesting and then I was working in crm I was a field tech um, working in crm and then working in the zohar lab there at fort vancouver looking at like various animal burials and things like that there. So yeah I did a little bit of lab work a little bit of field work. Like that. But I I knew pretty early on um that I wanted to do work with dogs and dog domestication and hunting dogs specifically which is kind of how I launched into what I did for my ph d. 11:47.69 David Cool, Um, before we launch into that though I have to ask is being a bartender hard or is it really fun or is it both. 11:56.17 Angela Ah, oh man I would say that it depends on where you work and it depends on the day you know? um I've been a bartender in Portland and I've been a bartender in Las Vegas and they're just 2 different worlds I feel for anyone who works in a tourist. 12:11.67 David I'd imagine. 12:14.63 Angela Location who has to deal with tourists every day. It's really hard to do but's for you. It's another day at work for them. It's like the greatest day of their life right? They're out in Vegas at a club and it's just like they're at a bachelor party or it's their birthday and so for them. It's just like the most exciting day ever and you're like it's a Thursday for me. 12:33.78 David Ah, yeah. 12:34.59 Angela So you know and like you're just like how many you know cosmopolitans I was a bartender in the days of cosmopolitans and sex and the city and it's like how many cosmopolitans can I make today or you know how many like um. Red bull vocas can I serve to dudes on a bachelor party so you know has its ups and downs. 12:53.63 David Right? Okay, Um, yeah I guess like I didn't really think about that if they there they were having like the time of their lives and you have to like kind of like match that energy level. But if you have like you know. Ah, Doctor's appointment or you got no sleep that day you're just like oh my God yeah. 13:11.32 Angela Yeah, yeah, and I worked lots of late nights I worked my when I was working on the strip in vegas my shift started at 10 pm and I was I got out at Eight Zero am so that's a weird life. That's a weird life. 13:25.99 David Whoa, Yeah, anthropological for sure. 13:28.17 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, I feel like nothing good in vegas happens after like two o'clock 13:30.52 Angela Yeah. Oh no, the weird the weird things that you see the weird stories that you have after that. Yeah yeah, So like I said like not a straight I didn't like graduate from high school. Get my four year degree and then go into my Ph D Not it was a meandering path. You know. 13:49.93 David Yeah, um so on that path you went to the UK at durham university how did that come about and like why Europe. 13:57.19 Angela Yeah. How did that come about so like I said probably unlike a lot of people who start their ph d I was laser focused on what I wanted to do like in those years those 2 years that I finished my undergrad at Portland State I became like the model student I was so focused. So dedicated like once I knew what I wanted to do I was like okay I'm zeroing in I'm getting straight a's I'm like doing this thing and it became very clear very early on like I wanted to go into grad school now I'm a first generation college graduate. No one in my family has a college degree. There's no background in my in my life to like help me through the obstacle course that is grad school and how that happens and where you go and how you do application. The whole process was like a mystery to me. Um. And so I started with like who would I want to do work with who would I want to find um, does work that is similar to what I'm interested in things like that and at the time I was so clear about what I wanted to do for a ph d that I was looking specifically for zoo archeologists who. Had like a kind of worldwide approach who had experience in various locations where I was interested in working um and that was very hard to find in the us I had talked to Pam Crabtree and why you but she was very specific in kind of where she worked and and really. You know everyone pointed me to the same person and this was someone in the Uk. My who became my ph d supervisor Peter Riley Conway yeah so then you know now having never been to the Uk ever in my life I got on a plane to England. Arrived in January in the middle of like the worst snowstorm they'd had in like a decade and it was immediately like what have I done what have I done where am I living I'm in a small village in England in a snowstorm I'm from Las Vegas this is a terrible idea. 15:56.34 David Well. 16:11.27 Angela Um, yeah. 16:14.50 David Whoa, yeah, and then you go to like charge your phone after a long day and it's different plug and you're like ah um, yeah, that's wild because like I like am from the East Coast obviously but then just went to laremie Wyoming for grad school and that was just like. 16:18.63 Angela It's all it's all different. 16:29.95 David The culture shock of just leaving I think Knoxville at the time to then there was just wild to me. But yeah, going to a whole other country and having to do all that and then do grad school mostly kind of challenging. 16:38.60 Angela Yeah, and a different system. You know so I was over in Europe for 12 years before I just recently moved back to the us and it's just a completely different academic system. So for example, undergrads in the uk they do a 3 year undergrad that's laser focuseded on their their major right? and so you apply and you apply into your undergrad in the Uk for a very specific program so students apply to the department of archeology get accepted to the department of archeology and there's no changing your major There's no like messing around and saying I don't want to do this anymore. It's like. Stuck that's it. It's very hard to change that path once you're on it and you only take archeology classes for 3 years so it's a very focused system and in some ways the ph d is very very similar in that at the time I had colleagues who were doing you know. Six seven 8 year nine year ph d programs that was the kind of norm like not that long ago it wasn't abnormal for people to do eight year ph ds and in the Uk it was a 3 or 4 year ph d program. So again, it was like this kind of laser focus on. Getting to your writing your dissertation immediately kind of yeah on ah a quicker truck whether that's a good or a bad thing I'm not I'm still not quite sure but it feels like in the us that they that length of your ph d is kind of gone down significantly and. The last few years 18:15.87 archpodnet Yeah, and that's I I think that's probably for. Everyone's hopefully for. Everyone's good. Um, and on that note I think we are going to end the segment right here this is episode 1 Ah 1 we're talking with Dr Angela Perry so enjoy these ads.