00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to episode one zero two of a life and ruins podcast reinvestige the careers of those living life in ruins I'm your host Carlton Gover and I am joined by my co-host Connor John and David Howe and this episode we are joined again by Kay Matenna a ph d student in archeology and indigenous science at the University Of Massachusetts at Amherst and a descendant and a descendant of the citizen band of Potawatomi and she first appeared on episode 54 essay eighty six annual conference and indigenous response. Kay. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. How are you doing today. 00:34.70 Kay Mattena Good. Thanks for having me. Um, we might want to backtrack my name's Maina not Batina I'm so sorry Maina I know it's italian for a native person. It's weird. But. 00:39.80 archpodnet God damn it? Okay I'm met 10 maina perfect all right? Let me redo that okay in this episode we are joined by K Maina thank you Chris. Okay. 00:39.34 David And carleton. 00:57.96 archpodnet But thank you so much for coming back on the show today. Kay how are you doing this evening. 01:01.98 Kay Mattena I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. How are y'all. 01:04.48 David You know I guess we should say what day this we're recording this is February Twenty Eighth um we might be dead tomorrow. We don't know um, but if you're hearing it now you know? yeah we made it. 01:05.65 archpodnet Yeah, don't know. 01:17.19 archpodnet We made it Well I think it'll be I think it'll be okay, everyone yeah I got my puy Pi lights all blue and yellow with my Ukrainian flag hanging up like um, it's a mood. 01:22.38 David That's too heavy. She would keep me take that out I think it's fine. Everyone's thinking it. 01:28.55 Kay Mattena Timely timely. 01:36.67 archpodnet So but the mood we are in for today though is to actually have kback on the show to talk about our research. So ah, kind of starting off this show. Okay in a total one eighty um you know what were your first experiences in anthropology growing up. You know we've kind of asked our audience. This are not our audience but our. Previous guests. You know like were you dinosaur kid history buff or nature nerve like what first drove you to anthropology and. 01:58.50 Kay Mattena Yeah, so as a 90 s kid I grew up with the discovery channel and history channel actually being the discovery channel and history channel. Um, and so alongside you know Billy and Mandy encouraged the cowardly dog I watched those sorts of things. Um, and that really got me interested in. 02:05.60 David Nice. 02:13.19 David Yes. 02:16.91 Kay Mattena Science but then on top of that I grew up in Salt Lake city Utah and um, although I no longer support collecting. My family was a family of collectors and we're really interested in archeology and especially like ancestry and things like that within our own family history and. From a very young age I was told all about my family history on both sides of my family so especially on my dad's side of the family. We are mainly white settlers. Um, one of a side of my family. My dad's grandfather is all italian immigrants. Um. That immigrated somewhat mysteriously my grandpa my grandpa says that it is potentially mafia or mob related. Um, which is interesting also could just be a story. We don't know um and on my grandmother's side. Ah. 03:00.98 David Oh. 03:12.46 Kay Mattena That side of the family came over on the mayflower and walked to Utah with Brigham young and were some of the first settlers in the Salt Lake city Valley um, well actually more towards the you and you went to mountains if you know anything about Utah geography. Um. 03:18.50 David Whoa. 03:29.94 Kay Mattena And then on that same side of the family I'm related to Bill Hickman who was the hitman for brigham young that was tasked with eradicating the indigenous people in the Salt Lake city valley um and so on the other side with my mother's family. We are french scottish. And related to both Pontiac and chief fo bosia of the potawatomi nations. Um, and so sort of a complicated history of people that never should have ended up together but did and reconciled and found love. Um, and so that sort of guided me on my interest in science and history. Um, but most of all people and what makes us us and that's really ah what got me excited about history and then I also sort of started in zoology actually so at the age of 8 I was communicating with um. Oh you can cut this out but I'm trying to think of his name because I'm I'm anxious and I can't think of his name right now but I should ah yes Steve Irwin um okay snap starting. Um so starting with Steve Irwin um and animal planet. 04:30.82 archpodnet Steve Irwin the crap brothers. 04:44.25 Kay Mattena Actually at the age of 8 emailed Steve Irwin and he responded and started sending right cryke and was sending me like gift packages and email correspondences and things like that up until his death and his death really devastated me. 04:49.52 David Crike. 05:03.10 Kay Mattena But prior to his death I really wanted to be a zoologist and was planning totally on traveling to Australia and learning zoology. But after his death I was devastated hit my preteens and preteen depression set in um and. Dealt with a lot of trauma and sexual violence and things like that that totally changed my course and later in my teens I decided I wanted to be a Csi person working in criminal justice and things like that. Um, and then. Yeah, that kind of goes further along into my undergraduate degree where it all started. 05:42.86 David Um, I just want to say really quick that that story. Um you might be the most american person I know. Ah and you're even an italian immigrant because like a America America it's ah you got a lot going on there. Um, and the other thing I would say before I let everyone else talk. 05:54.63 Kay Mattena C. 06:02.36 David Ah, would be that I also was like devastated when Steve Erwin Died I didn't go to school the next day because it was just like a bummer and I was watching all like the stuff on tv and whatnot. And yeah, that's I think that's something common like a lot of scientists. Kids share. 06:06.71 Kay Mattena Same. 06:16.55 Kay Mattena Yeah, my aunt actually called to check on me and that's how I found out and and we were out fishing and I was totally devastated and like shut in now I Just cried a lot. 06:20.48 David Wow Did you punch a fish or stingrey. Ah I. 06:31.59 connor So can I ask you a question about your communication with him how was writing letters to Steve Irwin like how were those conversations. 06:39.97 Kay Mattena Ah, um, it was very unexpected. It was like I like for me this sounds kind of weird but Steve Erwin was like my Santa Claus and like my one wish was to be a zoologist so I was talking to my mom about it and she was like just. Send an email. We'll draft an email together and send him an email and if he responds awesome. But if he doesn't you at least got to send your your letter to santa so to speak. So um, and he responded really quickly and was incredibly kind and supportive and. Essentially like sort of express the desire to see me grow into a zoologist. Um, yeah, so hopefully I'm not letting him down even though I'm not a zoologist. 07:28.80 archpodnet And I think he'd be proud to know that you pursued higher education in the sciences in general though Steve taught us well so that kind of like circling back to um your your passion for for Csi. 07:30.85 David Yeah. 07:32.72 Kay Mattena Yeah, he did. He did. 07:45.91 archpodnet So did you originally let go into undergrad for like forensic anthropology. 07:48.30 Kay Mattena Yeah, so I contacted a friend of mine um or actually more of a mentor. She was the I believe the fifth female supervisor of a crime lab and she was actually the supervisor for the Las Vegas crime lab and I contacted her just for advice. Um, because I was that weird kid looking at colleges when I was like 12 um, and so I reached her out to her when I was that age and she had said that if I had gone to merciers university which is in Erie Pennsylvania for their forensic anthropology that she would hire me without a test. Um and that's. Based entirely on Mercy Hirst's um, forensic anthropology program is incredibly rigorous, but they also require a lot of hands-on experience so they have their own forensics lab and team that goes out and does forensic ah investigations that undergrads get to be a part of and so it provides really. Practical and tangible hands-on experience rather than just book experience and so I started going into that especially after um, dealing with and moving past my trauma I wanted to be able to help others who no longer had a voice themselves. 09:00.20 archpodnet I got shit were you there when Atavazio was still faculty at at Mercy Hers did you did you do the field school with him. 09:05.48 Kay Mattena I sure was for a hot second I did not um so he was only there for maybe three months of my freshman year. Um, and then he was removed. Um, from the faculty and so we did our field school actually in Pennsylvania in Cusa Logatown 09:29.72 archpodnet Got you so Chris cut this out. Okay, so okay, like did you stick with the forensic anthropology degree the entire time at merciers. Or did you change concentrations kind of like towards the end of your tenure. There. 09:49.32 Kay Mattena Yeah, so I actually changed 3 times so I started in forensic anthropology um part of the things that changed me was I was told I had to take Calculus in physics and I was like no I'm good I don't want to do that. Um, but also like after experiencing and interacting with some of the graduate students. Um I did not like the way that the graduate students as well as the professors sort of looked at people after they had passed um, viewing them as. Objects and not respecting them as being people, especially as forensics because you're dealing with particularly violent crimes. Um and the lack of respect that I was seeing for human remains was devastating um especially coming from. Ah, household that was I was raised both sort of Catholic with like the Italian Catholic side but also with my indigenous side the approach to death was very different like I was never scared of death. Um I knew it was just part of a journey. And to see people that coped with death in really problematic ways I didn't like it and I knew that I would not mesh well with working with people who had to deal with death in those sorts of ways which I understand having like everyone has their coping Mechanisms. Um. But I do think that that was particularly problematic and so that sort of pushed me away and I started studying more bio archeology stuff. Um, and I really love the human anatomy and the body in particular so I enjoyed taking a lot of those classes. And then started to encounter similar things in Bio archeology and so I just sort of I wanted to know more about people and our spirits and our hearts and our culture and what makes us have relationships with others and I was interested in in. More of a holistic understanding of people and that's what archeology I felt could bring me and so I think it was halfway through my junior year I transferred and I was just an archaeology student but I was also minoring in art. Um, and so I spent a lot of my time doing art making practices that was also part of like my own self-care. Um, and art has always been integral to archeology for me as well like I don't see necessarily a blur between them like there's or a distinction between Them. There's a lot of similarities and so I definitely kind of made a. 12:35.29 Kay Mattena Pretty big shift to focus on people and art making and things and materiality. 12:40.80 connor And it was like a step by step away from death specifically kind of kind of thing which I totally get I think that is something really difficult to study at least it would for me something to study objectively at at any sort of point you know I think I. 12:45.24 Kay Mattena Um, yeah. 12:59.99 connor Watch like bones growing up and you know those those stories were really like compelling and interesting and also very sad at the same point. So I can I can totally understand that kind of slowly stepping away from something so heavy and intense and I'm glad you found that. 13:00.56 Kay Mattena With it. 13:18.91 connor Something that is a little different and a little more exciting and more people base you know. 13:22.34 Kay Mattena Yeah, me too me too I feel a lot better doing this although it's still a struggle from time to time. 13:28.42 connor Yeah, absolutely So what did you do? um as part of your field school. 13:33.58 Kay Mattena Um, so my I did 4 years of field school at cusalogatown. Um, which is actually located. It's a boy scout camp. Um in Pennsylvania um, and. The 4 years that I was there well sort of where I started I'm backtracking so you could cut that um, sort of where I started with the the first year was we were working with an archeologist that was also um, removed from. Faculty that following year. Um, and we didn't do a whole lot or learned a whole lot. We did a lot of stps. Um, and we found a lot of slag and that was pretty much it and that was pretty much the same for the next three years we found a whole lot of nothing and dug a lot of holes and then mercyh Hurst hired a historical archeologist and she brought in metal detectors. Um from her experience working with same period sites. So this particular site was. Um, and is a Delaware site. Um, and we were working collaboratively with um the Seneca nation of indians in Salamaica um, who although the delaware were absorbed absorbed absorbed hurts are hard. Okay, absorbs into. The Seneca nation. Um, they were sort of wanting to do the right thing by the delaware people and um, gaia suito was the chief um of that particular village and he was the guide for George Washington um which made the site incredibly interesting because once we brought in the historical archeologist and we started doing metal detecting. We found um a copper gun butt and a copper kettle and a French Trade Bell and the copper gun butt was also likely french and both the copper gun butt and the copper kettle were being cut and turned into tinkler cones if you don't know what tinkler cones are they are the. 15:49.13 archpodnet Oh shit. 15:55.15 Kay Mattena Cones or jewelry that's often affixed to Jingle dresses which are medicine dresses that are worn by indigenous women. Um and the dance is incredibly sacred and is used to dance away or pray away bad energy bad spirits and issues. Ah, often relating to colonialism or in reaction to products of colonialism and so to see one a village that was related to George Washington so a guide for George Washington also trading with the french. But not using the materials being traded with the french in ways that would have been expected. Um, they were indigenizing their materials in incredibly unique ways. Um, and so that was an absolutely amazing experience to be a part of and more of a. tangible archaeological methodology methodology sort of perspective. It also taught me that systematic testing does not always work because we were doing the grid method where every five meters we would put an Sdp in and we missed everything every single site was in between our stps. 17:06.70 David That sounds awful. 17:12.10 Kay Mattena And we actually found that there was one feature that we did find with an stp that was um, a fire feature and after we brought in the metal metal Detector. We found that the the tinkler cones were being made around the fire. So we Had. Just missed all of those artifacts. Um, So yeah I learned a lot from that field school. 17:37.52 connor Cool and ah for the our listeners um stp is shovel test probe stands for shovel test pro. It's what we do on a lot of ah archeological sites and the way we obviously miss a lot of stuff as well. But I think on that note, we're in a probe cave. Further and ask her more questions in the next segment of episode 1 or 2 of a life and ruins podcast.