00:00.00 David Welcome back to episode one zero two the life insurances podcast we're chatting here with Kay Manna um about did I say it wrong maina okay hang on welcome back to a life neuroances podcast episode 1 oh two, we're talking with Kay Maina um and I said it right? Thank you. 00:06.81 archpodnet I Matina yeah. 00:19.57 David Ah, wait cut that oh I'm just do it a Chris I'm sorry hang on just ended at the K Maa Maina my god all right welcome back to episode 2 but hang on like welcome back to segment 2 of episode 1 oh 2 of a life nuns podcast. We're here with Kay Maina and we're going to talk about grad school. So what was that experience like and why did you decide to go where you went. So. 00:42.22 Kay Mattena Yeah, so after I graduated with my b a from mercy hearrst um I sort of didn't know what I wanted to do um my advisor Dr Ed Jolie um Mercy Hirst who's also. An indigenous archeologist who's lakota um had put me in touch and connected me to some of Dr Sonia Attalla's work um at the University Of Massachusetts at Amherst and I absolutely loved what she was doing but I again like didn't know. If I wanted to do grad school and commit to you know potentially 10 years of my life. Um, or if I wanted to just start working so I applied for 2 things at the same time the pokegan band of the pottawatomi were looking for a tippo the tribal historic preservation officer. So I applied for that position. And I also applied for the University Of Massachusetts at Amherst with Sonia Atala for an a ph d um, and you Mas got back to me and so I sort of led with that as like that's where I needed to be like that's where I was being pushed to go to do so I did that. Um, and I'm incredibly grateful I did and so I started that in 2019 and got my master's this last year. Um, and I did a course base masters and that was incredibly helpful because it gave me a good grounding. And an education that Mercy Hirst didn't have for specifically collaborative archeology and contemporary archeology and exposed me to a lot of really new ideas that I hadn't been exposed to and Carlton and I've talked about theory before like not being exposed to things past post-processualism um. 02:18.36 David And. 02:36.70 Kay Mattena And so for the first time I was being exposed to other ideas and other ways of thinking about archaeology. Um and it got me really excited and so studying under Dr Sonia attala especially was an incredible honor and. She has taught me so much and has guided me and has been such a great advisor in sticking with me. She's also ojibla so the Ojibwa and the potawatomi are cousins as we speak the same language we practice a lot of the same practices and so to be able to have an advisor that's. Both within the same academic field as myself but also within the same culture as myself. Um, really made me feel welcome. Um, and I feel truly blessed and honored to have that. 03:28.57 connor That's us that's awesome. Um, was that was the intention always to get a Ph D or is there ever a moment of hesitation in between that. 03:37.00 Kay Mattena Yeah, so after I got my master's um I had an experience with a mentor of mine that I really looked up to um where I was sort of pushed to question. You know whether or not the Ph D was for me. Um, and. From what I've heard everyone sort of goes through that phase correct me if I'm wrong in the comments are here. Um, so after I finish my masters. Okay, after I finish my master's I camped for a week and a half by myself in the woods. 04:00.12 David We all do so. 04:12.70 Kay Mattena Um, primitive camping I just needed to listen um and part of what I did during that was just learning to listen and I did a lot of soul searching and heart centering. Um and like I said just listening and. After that sort of introspective moment I realized that what what's mine to do what I need to do is get this Ph D Um, and sometimes what you need to do is not always what you want to do I Still want to quit all the time. Um. But it's what I need to do um the Ph D. There's a lot of power Sadly um in my opinion with the Ph D Um, behind getting sighted being heard especially as a woman and an indigenous woman. Um, the Ph D means a lot. Ah, and it's more so because my ancestors and those who came before me um, lost so much my grandmother Kesshnique Um, walked the trail of death for the potawatomi and died on that trail and. Being able to be here in these spaces in these colonial spaces where she would have never been allowed to be in is incredibly important and it's important to those who will come after me. Um, so a lot of the reason why I'm doing this Ph D is for um, thinking towards future generations and like. Who And what our children will have access to in the future and that's really what's important to me and why I'm here. 05:52.25 David And I really can't stress like how much I respect the ah like I guess the walk about for lack of a better word that you went on um like yeah I think a lot of us just need to step outside and like take some time outside especially alone. Just to like and like you said listen like just you know like not to get all like woowoo but like you know hear the the streams and like the birds and stuff like that just like disconnected and like it definitely clears your head. Um and the fact that like you did that and then we're like I want to do my Ph D I Respect the hell out of because I would have been like. Yeah, I'm gonna go build a shelter and hit rocks in the woods. So yeah. 06:35.94 Kay Mattena Yeah I spend a lot of time learning from and again this is this is sort of who I am so I apologize if anyone thinks this is a little too deep or metaphorical or whatever I listened a lot to the insects that were around me I didn't get many other visitors while I was there except. Bugs um, and they actually taught me a lot and have pushed me to be more attentive, um, and looking at other beings as relatives that are just as willing and capable of teaching as. Someone with a ph d in the classroom to learn from the spider how to have patience and get up in the morning to greet the sun and to listen to the patience of a frog. Um as they sit and wait for something to pass by. Um, like there's a lot of lessons that even the smallest creature and being can teach us and that's what that sort of adventure taught me was just learning to listen because I think as as students were often taught to talk. Um. And especially like I have Adhd and after learning about that during covid like I was diagnosed later in life. Um I talked a lot especially with nervousness. Um as a way of coping rather than listening and actually learning. 07:53.69 David I Think we will. 08:08.00 Kay Mattena Um, so my indigenous name is Kickenda so which means always learning and I didn't learn to embody that until I went on that camping trip and I learned from other relatives that were nonhuman. 08:19.46 David So well. Yeah, that's the ah, it's a cool story. Um I mean the audience knows I have ad HD so like I I yeah yeah, it's tough to live with and I'm glad you figured it out. Okay. 08:33.45 Kay Mattena Still figuring it out. Always. 08:36.80 David I Ah yeah I'm an absolute miss all right? who. 08:36.17 archpodnet Right? Yeah, So so kind of following this this same thread like your work in indigenous archeology in decolonizing museums like for our audience could you?? Um, you know what is indigenous archaeology. To you and then how how is it prevalent in your work and. 08:57.95 Kay Mattena Yeah, um, so I think that upon reflecting for for this podcast and thinking about what I would say to you guys in response to that it gets in it is a complicated answer right? Hey Carlton you know this if you've watched other episodes like where i. Was previously It's a complicated answer and there's indigenous archaeologies. It's a plural. Um so indigenous archaeology pulling mainly right now from cola chaanthopone's work. Um and specifically the text the premise and promising of indigenous archeology um indigenous archeology is archaeology that is rooted in indigenous values autonomy heritage control politics activism collaboration um with community and education. Um, it's never meant to be. Essential or like set in stone but it's meant to be plastic, um and something that's adaptable through the inclusion of the community. Um, and it's made unique for each and every indigenous community. Um, because every indigenous community is going to have different values and. Different communities within that broader indigenous community will have different values. Um, so it's it's adaptable, um, and fluid and ever changing and growing and today people are still talking about what it means. So. Yeah, um, and then going back to your second part of that question on decolonizing museums. Yeah, um, so my I sort of turn towards decolonizing museums based more on my my interest in. Indigenous tattooing practices specifically nishnae um or annishnae tattooing practices in the great lakes region. Um and pulling from aon Detrow Wolf's work who was in episode 4 but also Christian Gates Apierre who has done more recent reiterations of veteran de deter wolf's work. Um, that has proved a little more valid and a little more tested I guess he has a larger sample size. Um and has a little bit more experience with experimentation you swear and things like that. Um, but upon reading. Erend Dera Wolf's work I learned that the ways that institutions have and continue to type artifacts which is what we call for naming particular types of artifacts um is contributing to a erasure. 11:45.30 Kay Mattena And a lot of ways and that's not necessarily something that Aaron talks about or other folks are talking about that are interested in tattooing but the ways that we call bone tools just a broad category of bone tools or. Um, anyone who's been in a curation facility will see like the one bag or box just full of funnel remains. Um and those items could potentially be used for tattooing. Um, but not many people are interested in that or investigating that so those items sort of. Get lost in the shuffle and are named as bone alls and needles um gar mandibles porcupine pines cactus pines and they're sort of left within the ecological artifacts. Um, and. 12:40.74 David I was going to say um like if you you know if those things get like a manhandled for like a lack of a better word like and you're touching the end of it where it's like the pointy end you're going to lose the residue on it to do any kind of analysis to see if it was a tattoo implement. 12:41.70 Kay Mattena Does someone have something to say No okay. 12:58.89 David Like that's another danger of just like filing that stuff away it as a bone allll or you know porcupine spine um or a prick I don't know what the word is. But yeah, that's a good point. It's it's tough. 13:10.37 archpodnet And you've done like some of your own stick and poke tattoos yourself isn't that right? Kay. 13:10.64 Kay Mattena Yeah. 13:16.84 Kay Mattena Um, yes on myself. Um, and close family members. Um I have this is also part of why I started having a mid higher education crisis. Um, after my masters. Was I was debating on whether or not I wanted to just do tattooing. Um or if I wanted to get the ph d because I love doing art. However I did not realize the amount of actual work and a lot of people don't realize the amount of work it takes to be a tattoo artist. It's a ph d in its of itself to be a standalone tattoo artist. It's 10 years of apprenticeship education learning about hygiene um taking yearly classes to get certified and it's it's a time investment in of itself. Um, and so. Because of that I've only done stick and poke on myself and like my mom. Um but they're people I trust and I do everything by the hygiene books I've taken my own hygiene classes to make sure I'm doing it correctly but I will never do it on another person. That is not closely related to me. Um, because of that unless there comes a time in the future which I'm not counting on or predicting. But if an elder says that it's my duty then I would take that on. But. I don't think that's my job I think my job is to be an archaeologist. Um, and so most of what I do is experimentation and so looking at similar to Aaron Deta Wolf's work um recreations of artifacts and using them to tattoo not on myself. Um, likely on pigskin if I could sustainably resource other options I would but as of right now. Pigskin really is the best option. Um and sort of the experimentation side of things is you recreate the artifact you're working with. Um, and then you use it in tattooing practices. So if I'm recreating all I'd recreate that bone all to the best of my ability tattoo with it. Um, for periods of time. Um, and then compare the useware. So. Usewa analysis is where you look at an item side by side to the artifact to the item you've experimented with and your control item which is the item you haven't tattooed with um and compare what those look like and so with. 16:06.27 Kay Mattena Folks like Christian Gatespierre he was actually finding within 15 minutes of tattooing you could tell whether a bone tool was used for actually tattooing or for working with leather and that's only 15 minutes of time um and he was able to prove that with a pretty high significance rate. Um, and so essentially what I would like to do is take his work and Aon Detal Deor Wolf's work um and indigenize it because there's traditional ecological knowledge there that they are not talking about There's erasure. That's not being talked about and the fact that. So many indigenous people do not have their indigenous tattooing practices. Um and ways of reclaiming our bodies. That's really what comes down to like my research is being able to reclaim our bodies through tattoos because tattoos have so much healing behind them. They aren't just art. They are medicinal. They're spiritual. They're cultural. Um and they bring all of those they braid all of those things together in and such a unique way and especially for indigenous women being able to reclaim our bodies when a time that. Missing a murdered and indigenous women and 2 wo-spirit folks is such a crisis and an epidemic to be able to tattoo ourselves visually and be like I am an indigenous woman and I'm proud of it and I feel safe enough to identify myself in this way is important and it's healing. For individuals as well as like an entire community. Um, and this is me speculating but like upon watching other indigenous communities like inuit and you pick folks and maori folks bring back. Like their tattooing practices. It shows that there's power in them. That's unique. So that sort of like took a tangent and followed a weird little path. 18:05.52 David No, That's really well said and like a poignant thing to say too like I do see on social media. Anybody got to wrap up here but like on social media.. There are some indigenous women that are like retaking the you know like facial tattoos and body tattoos that. You know haven't been I wouldn't say illegal some places I probably were but you know like just frowned upon um, and that's cool to see. But yeah, it's also like like you know getting a tattoo for me at least as a non-indigenous person like I usually get it after some kind of mental breakdown or I just have like a. 18:27.20 Kay Mattena Um, yeah. 18:43.44 David I Don't know I Just like the feeling of getting a tattoo because it's like refreshing and it's new and like you're adding something to your body so I could see how in the past and with current indigenous societies. It might be similar. 18:45.91 Kay Mattena Um, yeah. 18:52.41 Kay Mattena Yeah, and for like um I'm really interested in what like your viewers have to say about some of like my hypotheses. So I have um, a potential idea. Um so bear grease is a traditional medicine that's used as. Um, a natural pain Reliever Um, and there's a lot of herbal medicines including stinging nettle that's used to treat things like Arthritis joint pain Nerve Pain. So I have an idea sort of based on otseas. Um, who's the ice man that was he's a tattooed man that was found in. Be French or Italian apps depending on who use Austrian All of the above depending on our side here is a big political debate on who like what side he was found On. Um, but he has tattoos that could be potentially medicinal. 19:34.65 archpodnet Austrian. 19:50.43 Kay Mattena And so my hypothesis is that if you mix Barag grease and the ash of something like sting a nettle it might equate to something like a cortisone shot that could be used to treat Arthritis Sciatica nerve and joint pain and things like that. Um, and then I also. 20:00.74 David Well. 20:09.77 Kay Mattena Want to mention that this research of mine could potentially have impacts for nagpra and Native American Grays Protection Repatriation Act um especially with residue. Um, if there's ancestral blood and Dna on these items. It really pushes for the necessity of collaboration about these items because indigenous people want to know just as much as researchers and archeologists and museum creators do about these items. Um, and so I think work like this. Um, not just by myself. But by the numerous other indigenous people studying our tattooing practices necessitates collaboration within museum institutions and that is really what's key to decolonizing museums. 20:59.58 archpodnet Excellent and also bear g gri makes the best french frit oil and with that we'll be right back with episode 1 ah 2 of a liferos podcast.