00:00.00 archpodnet It help if actually had the right outline up there. We go. Okay, welcome to episode 103 of a life ruins podcast reinvestige the careers of those living a life in ruins I am re hosts Carlton go I am joined by my co-host Connor Johnn ah David is out making another Maele commercial today. We are joined by Trevor Creighton who is the project archeologist at Buttzer Ancient Farm thank you so much for joining us today. Trevor how are you doing i. 00:29.84 Trevor Creighton I'm I'm very well. Thanks Very well thanks for asking and and thanks for having me on. 00:33.78 archpodnet We absolutely We're really excited to have you on today and for our listeners you probably heard the ad for butser ancient farm as you're coming in today. So we're super excited to have trevor one of the project archaeologists come on and talk about this experimental archeology project ah out in Southern England and so like real quick trevor your accent doesn't sound too too english to me for me. 00:55.38 Trevor Creighton No no, my accent's Australia from Australia and I just find myself here. Ah in sunny england enjoying the climate trying to escape the sunshine as often as possible. 01:09.00 archpodnet Ah, excellent man. So that's that's awesome so kind of just getting into today's topic right? So you're the experiments archeologist at buttser ancient farm. So what were your first experiences in archeology growing up. We've only had 1 ossy on the show so far now and is archaeology part of anthropology in Australia or is it. History. 01:29.90 Trevor Creighton Um, well archaeology is a separate discipline in Australia and in Uk um separate from history and separate from anthropology. It's it's a standalone discipline. 01:42.35 connor So cool and so were you exposed to archaeology at like a very young age or was that something that kind of happened later in life. 01:50.90 Trevor Creighton Well, a young age is a long time ago for me. But yeah I so I had an interest in archaeology and in fact I passed up the chance to study archaeology on 2 occasions about forty years ago so clearly I had an interest then even if my memory is not that good. Um, but it took a very roundabout route to bring me back to it. 02:11.72 archpodnet Right? As we were kind of like going as we were talking with you a couple weeks ago you you actually got an undergraduate degree in in radioography. Um and with diagnostic diagnostic medical imaging at ah riverina college for advanced education. So what? what is radioography like what. 02:17.88 Trevor Creighton Um, that's right? yeah. 02:29.71 Trevor Creighton Um, when I was at school I had a really keen interest in science and I also had a big interest in photography as well as archaeology. Um, and I decided I could study photography or I could study archaeology. 02:29.92 archpodnet What brought you to that originally was that. 02:44.37 Trevor Creighton And wisely perhaps I decided that I couldn't make any money in those things I mean how right was I um, so I thought I can kind of combine those 2 interests. You know those' archaeology bones they go hand in hand science radioography they go hand in hand. Kind of photography put it all together and I get this. Ah this career that seems to pay you reasonably well and allow me to work kind of wherever I like just it's a pretty crap job but you know. 03:10.83 connor And that that job just involves. It's like taking pictures of bones. Essentially. 03:14.69 Trevor Creighton Yeah, exactly actually it's you know it's not a bad job but I didn't like it. 03:21.76 connor Yeah I don't know sign me up because it's if you're exposed to a lot of ah, harmful Rays all the time you know that sounds sounds like something I want to I want to be a part of absolutely so like the imaging raised. 03:34.42 Trevor Creighton No, we we we get so we get to tell people. It's perfectly safe then run behind a lead screen and sort of speak at if you what and saying it's fine hold your breath. 03:45.96 archpodnet Excellent and then so how long were you doing that before you decided to pursue an M a and your a is in like visual arts so you go from radioography and undergrad and then you go to the visual arts. 03:52.98 Trevor Creighton Um, that's right. 03:59.74 Trevor Creighton That's right, ah, it took me about 10 years to to sort of realize I ah really didn't want to be there so I ended up working as a photographer and worked my way into teaching photography at a place called the Canberra Institute of technology. Um, and simultaneously I did an m a in in yeah in visual arts majored in photography that was two Thousand So Twenty Twenty two years ago so from that there is a logical connection here. Well logical in terms of my life. Um. 04:25.73 archpodnet I Understood that. 04:35.70 Trevor Creighton I ended up doing a ph d which I I hastened to add I never finished you know I split because of artistic differences a lot like many bands in the 1970 s um, yeah yeah, I was doing a ph d at southern cross university in Australia and. Visual arts is really highly theorized when sort of at an academic level. In fact, it's a lot like theoretical archeology same philosophers Baudriard Heidegger people like that lots of fun reading there. Um, and what I one I got really interested in was the the way people make marx. In the landscape I mean kind of literally make marks in the ground but also leave things um like picnic shelters or a particular fascination of mine. So I lived in Australia at the time and and Australia is a kind of place that. Was colonised or invaded by europeans just over two hundred years ago and there's I think this really uneasy relationship between ah between european australians and and the continent they live on. There was a yeah. There was an architectural historian who described australians european australians as group of people living on the verandah of a continent continent looking out to sea and waiting for the boats to come and take them home. Um, so yeah I think there's this really uneasy relationship between australians and the place that we have partly because. Most of the archaeology in Australia is is very old or it belongs to a culture which has been there for a very long time and it's it's kind of foreign to to europeans um, so the way we've kind of made an impression on our landscape is is kind of I think. At odds with the landscape itself. So I ended up sort of if you like photographing these sort of odd monuments that that we'd left in the countryside in Australia and so it was a sort of cultural geographical um research that I was doing which yeah, which. Led me indirectly back to sort of contact with with archaeology i. 06:41.70 archpodnet I got you and like I think the current understanding is that humans first arrived in Australia like what forty sixty thousand years ago 06:48.31 Trevor Creighton Yeah, yeah, it's ah, 60000 years is is the latest. It's the latest dating if you ask indigenous australians I'll tell you they've been for there forever and you know I'm not going to argue with that either. 00:16.46 David Who are. 07:00.47 archpodnet It up right? Yeah I love the dualities between um, indigenous archeology and ah in in australian indigenous archeology in North America because like the same like what happened to the pleistocene megafauna debates come up and like it's like they're really cool. Analogies between the 2 um 2 geographic areas in terms of what happens to the environment at roughly around the end of the ice age and what happens to the pleistone megafauna. Definitely a topic. We'll have to explore sport in the future. But um, so you're you're pursuing this ph d right? At. In visual arts and then you end up getting you go to you go to? Ah lightchesterlyceter Leechester I should know these words but less Lester Lester excellent 07:44.46 Trevor Creighton um lester less yeah yeah yeah um I after I sort of disengaged from my ph d in a little while I I immigrated to the Uk where I am now. Um. 01:07.89 David And Lester. 07:47.99 connor Blasta muster. 08:03.98 Trevor Creighton And that's one really by chance I had the opportunity to to go to work at buts range and farm in a slightly different capacity. What I'm doing now really on an education team and I slipped really by sheer good fortune I mean partly through my own interest in archaeology. And partly through yeah good fortune into the ultimately the job I'm doing now which is working as an experimental archaeologist I did I did by the way end up studying archaeology as well. So yeah I have a masters from Leicester which is l e I c e s t e r. 08:31.47 archpodnet And while. 08:42.99 Trevor Creighton And it's probably only one of a number of strange pronunciations that I might make this evening. 08:46.88 archpodnet Excellent. 02:09.40 David I I um was on the subway platform in London and I was trying to get tolycaster square Lester Square and I asked this lady can I get to lycaster square and she goes lesta and I was like oh right? Yeah sorry that one just. 09:03.81 Trevor Creighton No, don't don't feel at all bad because yeah, ah the I I have a friend who who lived in a place called Shrewsbury sometimes called shrewsbury and he grew up there and I said so how do you pronounce this place and he said well if you're local. You pronounce a trusby or something on those lines. So. 02:26.74 David Very hard for Americans to pronounce that. Yeah. 09:23.21 Trevor Creighton It appears to have 3 differentunciations and even the people who live there. Don't say the same thing so you know we're all confused. My. 02:45.15 David Well. 09:30.29 archpodnet Fair enough. So what? what brought you to to the UK to begin with like what was that like that's that's quite the move going from. You know the southern pacific to the North Atlantic what was that impudus because that's a big career and like. 02:52.19 David Fair enough. 09:38.35 Trevor Creighton Um, true. 09:49.41 archpodnet Life-changing move to go back to to Britain. 09:52.99 Trevor Creighton Yeah, um, in short, my wife um she is originally from from um England and ah her parents were here are here and she wanted to come back and spend more time with them after 26 years in Australia I think it was and. Yeah, um, after after dissociating myself from my ph d I was at a loose end. Um, and so it seemed yeah it seemed like a great opportunity I'd I'd been to been here to Britain many times and you know I really liked it and there were you know there were a lot of opportunities here. Um, that I wouldn't have in Australia and the reverse is true as well. But certainly this opportunity to be an experimental archaeologist was not one I was expecting nor even knew existed. So yeah I really lucked out it. She is yeah I like. 10:42.55 archpodnet So your wife's the one that busted you out of the penal Colony huh. 04:09.58 David Oh. 10:48.91 Trevor Creighton Ah, people um, kind of prisoner repatriation scheme over here, get so as some of my ancestors made it to Australia ra ah not as voluntary passengers. Let's put it that way. 10:52.84 archpodnet Ah, excellent dude. 04:14.20 David I. 11:03.75 connor Was ah I was going to ask. Is there a big cultural difference between Australia and the Uk because I feel like there are some like similarities in things that they like and kind of cultural practices but was it like a huge change. 11:03.85 archpodnet Excellent. So yeah. 04:26.56 David Who. 11:21.49 Trevor Creighton No, it's probably about the easiest change you could make anywhere in the world because obviously there's ah, there's a cultural connection because most Australians would have some sort of some sort of I'll say British ancestry. 11:22.39 connor Culturally. 11:41.50 Trevor Creighton Um, I'll clarify that a little bit later on what british actually is. It's important to the archaeology. Um, and I guess sense of humor is rather the same australians tend probably to be a little bit more outgoing particularly particularly when. Kind of compared to maybe the south of Britain so there is ah a kind of reserve. Um, but you know when you scratch the surface people are very similar. So yeah, it's a really is really easy kind of cultural transition weather transition not so much so but. 12:12.46 archpodnet I can imagine so since you did your yeah since you did your archeological education in the U K is that have you had a desire to learn more about like the Australian archeological record or have you just kind of been focused in this particular. 05:37.34 David I'd imagine. 12:31.27 archpodnet Time period in ah in England with the bronze and iron age of. 12:35.59 Trevor Creighton Um I had some contact with archaeology in Australia. So as I was saying before I was interested in it broadly speaking and through this kind of cultural geographical link with the ph d I was doing and other other research. Um I I got sort of. Really interested in in indigenous culture in Australia and I also did some some work for a few organizations connected to that so I was kind of lucky in that I got ah got some really privileged access to things. So I visited a lot of sacred sites and I shouldn't say a lot but I visited some sacred sites and some great rock art sites and also kind of um, got a little bit of a flavor for some of the more subtle archaeology in Australia and I guess that really alerted me to the fact that. The the relationship between european australians and the way we kind of use the landscape and interact with it is just radically different from that of indigenous australians. So yeah I saw things but I didn't understand them and that's what I'd say so I guess you know as a european ultimately. Um. It's easier for me to connect with European Archaeology in one sense than than australian archaeology. 07:13.25 David Sure. I Think it's the same here for um, like us you know I guess we're still kind of a British colony or where we have that history here. But yeah, like it's a vastly different archeological experience when you're like of European ancestry than indigenous here for sure and. 14:16.47 Trevor Creighton Yeah I think there are a lot of Parallels between Australia and the United States um kind of through I guess you'd say prehistory. But but also historically as well. There are yeah similar sort of contact issues that we have with european and indigenous cultures and yeah. 07:37.74 David It's interesting. No it. That's that's reflected over there as well. 07:50.44 David No no. 14:34.83 connor I did is there've I think we've talked about this before with Maddie and Mcalister who was on here before but is the relationship between the local indigenous folks in archaeology in Australia good or is it. 14:51.41 Trevor Creighton Short answer is no um, it's been a really problematic relationship particularly probably with anthropology. Um, but because you know we we have anthropologists who as a said are a separate but of course related discipline. 14:54.16 connor Fraction. Okay. 15:08.72 Trevor Creighton Um, but also also archaeology actually I won't say particularly and anthropology the relationship between indigenous australians and anthropology and archaeology has been bad and exploitative I think certainly. Um, certainly that's the indigenous perspective and I think they're justified in making that claim that said, um, that relationship is changing and I spoke to an australian archaeologist recently? Um, who said her work was with communities. So ah. A lot of indigenous australians particularly who don't live in urban areas will be in a will be in a community if you like which is ah it may be a discrete set of land that they actually now own. Um yet. Land ownership and title in Australia is quite difficult at times I'm not talking obviously about the suburban setting but in terms of who owns large tracts of Australia but a lot of land in the last forty years has been handed back given back return to aboriginal people. So some archaeologists actually work with um, indigenous australians at that community level and the the indigenous people will say you can look at that. But you can't look at that. And yeah, the woman I was talking to said. That's actually great. You know that's a great relationship. It works for her. It works for archaeology and the community she works with seems to be very accepting of that that now anthropology and archaeology are not evil. They're not bad things that they can embrace them under their own terms. So the relationship at least in some parts is improving. 16:49.48 archpodnet Yeah I read a lot of aboriginal archeology like to answer kind of Connor's question like a lot of like the foundational text like indigenous methodologies came out of an indigenous new zealander. So like the kind of big areas for indigenous archaeology globally are. New Zealand Australia and the United States and Canada they're kind of the biggest producers of literature and theory on the on the subject and it's been cool. There's like a lot of really cool analogies that go on between what's um, as trevor you know you you alluded to like. Similarities in the colonization practice. The treatment of indigenous people and how archeology has reconciled that between the two continents has been very exciting exciting to watch. 17:35.71 Trevor Creighton Yeah, it's so it's a work in progress. But at least in some areas it. It really is improving. 17:42.66 archpodnet Um, and with that we're going to go ahead and end segment one. This is a special 4 segment episode of life roads podcast here with Trevor and we're about to dive into butter ancient farm and talk about the romans the iron age the bronze age we're gonna we're gonna get into it for everyone so stay tuned.