00:00.00 David Welcome back to episode 103 of a life neurons podcast we're here with Trevor Criton and we are talking about now experimental archeology which I guess I could define it. But do you want to go ahead and define it in the I guess your your best description of it. 00:16.14 Trevor Creighton Okay, yeah, um, experimental archaeology is just a process of designing experiments to test archaeological theories. So yep, you've got a theory. We'll build it and test it. 00:29.51 David I was way more succinct than I would have said it So I'm glad I asked you? Ah yeah, so what kind of stuff. Do you guys do at? um I Keep wanting to say buster but it is butt Sir Experimental archaeology wise. 00:42.51 Trevor Creighton Well, most of our work is in buildings. We do a little bit of metalology as well. But most of it's in in buildings. Um, and yeah, we we take archaeology and put it into 3 dimensions. Um, so once we've got this idea about okay. We've identified a need. We need to have a new building of x date. We then identify the archaeology. That's a really interesting building with some or that's a really interesting plan with some interesting information or in some cases. It's actually a lack of information. So again using. Any other data we can bring to hand like pollen records. Um any carbon 14 dates or any evidence of remaining timbers. We'll go and source our best guess or or what we know to have been the timber that was used for a certain thing so all of our buildings have timber in them. Um, with the exception of a roman villa which we have everything is essentially built from timber. You could say timber dirt and straw. So. That's what we need to source. Um, so we'll we'll source what we believe to be appropriate species of ah timber and then. Where our archaeological plan says. Okay, we've we've got a post hole here of this size we put a post in there of that size hopefully of the right timber. Um, once the archaeological evidence runs out you know once we've. Put all the posts in the post holes. Um, then we have to then we have to speculate. Um, we have done quite a lot of of these buildings over the years particularly of the roundhouses that I mentioned before so we have kind of. Ways that we have done things which we think are very logical and often we'll follow that. But sometimes we try and mix it up because we are doing an experiment. We have to remind ourselves that just because we built this thing before it didn't mean that was. The correct way of building. It didn't mean it's the only way of building it. So each time we try and push the um envelope a little bit more. Um, sometimes we get a bit of a clue to say beyond our posts. What the walls are made from so a lot of our buildings have what's called a waffle and door wall. And the waffle wall is really just ah, just a woven wall. It's a bit like having a huge basket say we've got a round house. It's about an a basket with a seven metre diameter and it is really the walls are just basketry. That's the wattling on top of it. 03:17.72 Trevor Creighton We put daub and daub is a mixture of usually ah hopefully a clay soil clay binds quite well but with soil um and things like hair or or straw. Um, there are um, they're sort of additives that helps it um helps it not to crack or to crack. Less often. So and then that's bound with water. So what you end up with is a composite material a bit like a really primitive form of fiberglass or carbon fibre where you've got this fairly brittle material like mud that insulates very well and a sort of ephemeral material like straw or hair that acts as the binder and. Put them together and you've got really very serviceable material that works like plaster and that you do find that in the archaeology as well. It's really tell-tale signs. Ah um, it it gives you the impression of these these bits of woven wood in the background. So those are the sort of typical ways that we'll make a wall. On top of that we'll put a roof with a roundhouse. It tends to be a conical roof because the simplest and we think the best way to make a roundhouse is to basically have a drum with a little cone on top. That's that's what these roundhouses are so yeah, the bases is a drum and the top is a cone. And we'll usually thatch that um, as we mentioned before there's there's good evidence for thatching and thatching is just applying something like a long straw from a cereal crop or a water reed or sometimes it's a sort of bushy crop like a heather and ineffectively just fastening that to the roof as a. As a waterproofing system in other buildings that we have we have some anglo-saxon buildings. Um, there is no standing evidence from these buildings so they date from the the sort of post-roman era which is about from a d 400 through to. In our case through to about 7 or 800 ad and they're really quite enigmatic these buildings they they appear and they don't look like much that came before them so they appear to belong to these anglo-saxon invaders people who come from Northern Germany what is now Northern Germany and Denmark and that sort of area there. Um they they seem to come in in fairly large numbers in in around ad 400 to ad 500. It's really quite debatable how large that number of people is and how much warfare there certainly was warfare but how much. Interaction. There was with the with the britons. The people who were here before despite the fact that they were colonised by rome they they remain britons but there's certainly conflict and we see this new style of architecture for which we have no standing parallels. Um, so we have to infer a lot of things just out of the dirt archaeology again. 06:05.13 Trevor Creighton We're looking at a series of post holes in the ground they can tell us certain things about the roof they can tell us certain things about the style of carpentry a surprising amount actually um, but again, we're flying blind. Um, so again, if we've got the plant record tells us they have a certain amount of. A certain type of timber in abundance will use that timber in the case of ah our site. We've actually built 2 Anglo-saxon Houses. They're both based on almost identical archaeology and they look quite different and that's a way of us being able to test our theories about how they might have been. See how they work see how they last and also to show the public that we don't know what we're doing in in Essence we don't know what we' are Doing. We are doing experiments This is testing some assumptions and that allows the visiting public then to be. Archaeologists themselves because their opinion on which one is right and which one is not which one is better and which one is worse is as legitimate as mine because I'm old but I'm not that old so I never saw one. So yeah, that's sort of that's I Guess that's the cycle of taking the archaeology then gathering them. Materials. Course we have to gather a workforce together which is often staff um, usually mixed with Volunteers. So. It's all very much internal. We do get a a few specialist craftspeople to come in with certain certain techniques but usually just to demonstrate them So in most cases we do. Pretty well everything ourselves in ourselves and I say by ourselves I mean our staff and a fantastic group of volunteers we work with So. It's a little bit um little bit seed of the pants at times but that that's what makes it so exciting. 07:47.58 connor So yeah, that sounds that sounds very interesting because of the variability and things like that and do you normally try to replicate methods of creating that stuff too or do you use Modern equipment. 08:03.27 Trevor Creighton Um, it's a bit of both. Um time is usually kind of somewhat of a pressure so you know if we've identified we need a building we want to get it built in a timely fashion. So what we do is always do a proof of concept. Um, so a couple of years ago. We built this wonderful near Lithic house this late stone age house from about from about three thousand Eight hundred bc or thereabouts from archaeology quite nearby. Um, so what we did with the first phase of that is we built. First part of the mainframe of that building with all reproduction neolithic tools and the great thing is we know the neolithic tool kit being stone. It survives really well. And in fact, in some cases timber as well. Even bone. So we've got a really good idea of what the the neolithic toolkit is we also have. Surprising amount of information about sort of neolithic so late stone age carpentry for some amazing finds in Germany so they were really proficient. Carpenters. We're not, um, but what we did was say okay, let's imagine we're this sort of community of people who are not specialist. Builders. You know we imagine in Britain in. 7800 bc there's probably not a builder that you can phone and say look I need a house come and build it for me so we kind of have this imaginary community that we form we say all right? What can we do with these tools. We've got this idea about how this thing was built. We've got this idea about. How we can build it. The question is can we do it with the appropriate tools. So once we've proved the concept that yes we can do it with the appropriate tools. We'll substitute modern tools for ancient tools generally though. Um, that's not um. Yeah, it's not like large-scale earthmoving equipment. It's fairly simple power tools and often if possible hand tools like so steel axes instead of stone axes and for erecting these buildings. Our preference is very much human labour because again you know if we're saying well okay, we've got a community. Who don't have access to large earth-moving equipment or cranes we need to be able to put this up because if we can't put it up then there's a puzzle. We're not answering this structure. 10:18.41 archpodnet So I could kind of speak to that a little bit. Ah so Trevor for your background I'm um, um, part of the Poe nation of Oklahoma and we're building New Earth lodges like our structures these large by there are like sixty foot in diameter structures. And the tribe is building some new ones and of course we used to come from these towns that had like dozens if not hundreds of them and it's costing I think we had a fundraise they're fundraising like sixty Thousand u s dollars for the backhos. Ah the smiths and the lumber just to make 4 of them. Um, you know and it's like. 10:52.79 Trevor Creighton When. 10:57.76 archpodnet Huh it makes you appreciate like the level of um craftsmanship and the ability for people to create these things when in today. It takes a lot more money. Um or or time to create something that people used to do all the time in the past so like kind of hearing you talk about this. It was just like. Going through my head of all this stuff that we've been dealing with or working with in the tribe within these past couple weeks of just trying to recreate these our houses from you know three hundred years ago 11:23.90 Trevor Creighton Yeah, yeah, we had a project recently where we um, we work with ah an organisation called operation nightingale and operation nightingale is ah a charity that um, that works to help rehabilitate. Particularly military veterans but also serving personnel who've been injured or traumatized um and we use them as our sort of volunteer labor force. Um, and we we managed to get some funding which is about let's say about the equivalent of about $12000 and we built an entire. Um, six and a half metre round experimental bronze age roundhouse just with that amount of money based on having access to really good labour and in in in so doing one of the interesting things we found and I don't know if this is sort of parallel to your experience. But. 1 of the things we found is that okay, we started as a sort of disparate group of people but we ended up as a little community. Um at the end of it which was you know more than just a group of co co-workers which you can never kind of you never on safe ground of saying you know this is how people behaved in the past. But it's just so tempting to kind of see that um, kind of community building I suppose through through this kind of shared experience of making a shelter and the other thing was of course we started with I think we had about 26 or 27 um veteran volunteers and we had about 7 civilian volunteers as well and and us so we started with you know about 35 or 40 people in the whole team and we ended up with 40 experimental archaeologists because everybody in that process had something to give to it. They were getting insights as they went along which is not only great from you know from their perspective. It's fantastic from our perspective because. You know none of us is all seeing all-knowing about the past. Um, so you know being able to do things on a shoestring is actually really quite good because you have to be inventive innovative and everybody gets this real sense of of ownership and input as well as a sense of you know what is this thing we're building. What. What might it be and and you know what might it mean and and meaning is important. Um as well as just the structure itself. 13:37.34 archpodnet Right? And like amish communities in the United States when they have like you know barn raisingis events like it's not just okay, everyone gets together to put up the barn and finish it. It's a whole community event revolved around this this community building and and a larger sense of like you know they have ah it's like a. 13:48.40 David And. 13:56.61 archpodnet Ah, lunch around it. It's like a whole thing and and you know you can see those when the community has to get together to write build one of these houses. You know that that has to be a community decision right? Like if you just want to move in with your new bride to a new house. It's not just going to be you building it like the community will has to get behind to help you. To start your life and it's really cool, kind of thinking like conceptually of how these communities interacted with one another and how there was far more intersectionality between people's lives and in a single community than there is today that. 14:24.65 connor Yeah, and ah unlike adding to that is like you can understand how these big projects get completed like the the pyramids and things like that when you have these strong community binding things. Um and you can create larger communities and say. There's religion or if there's ritual involved Too. You can really kind of think and conceptualize how you're building my temples How you're building um say huge southwest structures and things like that I really that it it really just it clicks in my head and makes me think that you know. 15:00.82 Trevor Creighton Yeah, yeah, we actually couldn't help but make that kind of Armish analogy of the barn raisingis it it just and it just seems so natural. The whole thing this kind of bonding. 15:00.95 connor It's definitely not aliens and and it's very possible for humans to do something like this. 15:16.96 Trevor Creighton And this yeah this shared drive just seems so natural. Um, and one of the really interesting things happened after we kind of finished this building so we now we now gather in there fairly regularly and some guy brings in Dave he brings in some potatoes and we roast them over the fire and eat potatoes and kind of a. Communal meal but one of the things that became really obvious from the moment that wed more or less finish. This building was this urge to decorate it and again, do you know this? ah phenomenology phen phenomenonnology ah now I better go back on it phenomenology I don't even like saying it. 15:53.50 David And. 15:54.54 Trevor Creighton But this idea about kind of experiential archaeology how you can kind of access the mind of the past through experience and that's kind of dangerous ground that many archaeologists are not happy with but when you're actually involved in one of these projects. It's really hard not to kind of feeling yourself. Okay, this this is more than just. We needing a building here. This is ah there's a fundamental human urge going on under there now. Yeah, we can't add that back into the archaeological record as a fact, but it's very satisfying as someone who's a practitioner doing it and thinking Wow you know. Maybe I'm contacting people from the past in this way. 16:33.53 archpodnet Absolutely I think that's I think it's really cool. What you guys are doing there. Um like looking at because we've been talking for like over um about a month a little over and diving into butts or ancient farm and just the things you guys are able to pull off. It's you know it's not just like some um I don't know I guess like we here in the United States big big for us are like frontier towns like wild west towns where you know you have a bunch of actors running around. But even then it's not you guys are literally building this community from scratch. Um, and working with the archeological record and to educate like what is I guess on this topic of of public outreach like what has been the reaction to the english community to this iron age village. 17:20.28 Trevor Creighton Um, yeah, it's been really positive I mean we are not. We're not up there with stonehenge as a visitor attraction but we have ah we have a niche audience and a lot of people who know us and yeah, it's it's a super positive experience and ah to be honest, I'm often quite surprised. At how much people connect with it and how even hardened archaeologists will sometimes spend a night over ah sort of staying in one of the buildings and say you know I can't help but think I'm actually in the iron age and that's not you know that's not what academic archaeologists would normally say. So it is ah yeah, really a remarkable place and people really connect with it. We've got quite a you know, diverse community of people who have a really strong association with the place from academia all the way through to. People who I guess you'd say sort of new age lifestyles and things like that it seems to ring a lot of bells for a lot of people. 18:14.26 archpodnet Right? I think it's interesting that you guys are like meeting in this this iron age village. But you guys are eating potatoes from the new world that don't arrive until like eight hundred years later ah 18:26.20 Trevor Creighton Yeah, yeah, some of the some of the walls of this bronze age building are made of Earth. So there are other experimental because. We had a piece of archaeology that had no evidence for walls. So it had posts so we kind of knew it was a roundhouse so we made these walls which are of earth which you know are ah going to degrade into just like the geology around them. Um, and. We built it sort of late towards winter so nothing was going to sprout so there were a few people thinking. Well we'd better stabilise these loose ah loose earth walls by putting some plants in and someone put a tomato in there and I thought well no, we we can't really have that in the bronze age I'm afraid so. Ah Crestfallen when I threw it away were allowed to eat potatoes in there. 19:11.26 archpodnet Understood and of course well on on that note, we're going to go ahead and wrap up this segment. We'll be right back with segment 4 with Trevor Creton here on episode 1 Oh 3 of life froms podcast stay tuned. 19:15.47 David She.