00:00.00 archpodnet Cool, alrighty um, welcome back to segment 2 of episode. What is that one zero seven of a life insuranceance podcast I'm here with ah my former advisor Dr Todd Cerrell and I guess we're gonna talk about. 00:00.00 Todd Yeah. 00:15.98 archpodnet Your dissertation and your Ph D research. Ah I guess you could just give us like the elevator pitch of what it was if you're inclined. 00:17.46 Todd Seriously. 00:28.34 Todd God I didn't see that coming. 00:37.17 Todd That's the kind of thing I did twenty years ago and then put it aside and never touched it again. But yeah I'd be happy to talk about it. Um, how long of a speech. Do you want the short version. 00:49.25 archpodnet Ah, yeah, short versions fun because this turned into your book right? Okay, right? The a tory art one. Yeah. 00:56.78 Todd My first book. Yeah I just published another book. You know bar. Yeah that's right, all right? So the dissertation well look you I started working on a folsom site called Barber Bulch and um. The Lithic assemblage there look nothing like what I expected for a folsom assemblage or an early piliomiine assemblage. Um, you know if we're Goingnna stereotype early paleo indian withics. There's not many of them slow density. It's dominated by Lithic Raw materials that have moved huge distances. It tends to be sort of centered around bi facial technology or whether we're talking about big bifaces thin bifaces bi facial projectile points, etc. Barker Galch was none of those things now. Get me wrong. It had beautiful thin bifaces. Beautiful folsom points andomical raw materials but it was like I don't know 99.8 Percent materials from within a kiilometer away is mostly non biicial reduction. Artifact densities were insane like you know up to 4000 artifacts per square meter and really I was trying to put that assemblage into context and understand like how the hell is this happen and in the paleo indian period. That's not to say that that. 02:16.66 archpodnet Dem. 02:26.92 Todd Barger is unique among paleonian sites is other paleonian sites like this but it really got me thinking about why does stone tool assemblage is vary from from site to site and and certainly a lot of people had done work on that before but I think the. Real difference between my work and prior work is that I was trying to develop sort of formal models of understand why Lithic technology stone tools vary from place to place so using kind of mathematical models in ah in a human behavioral ecological framework to understand variation in in stone tool technology. Like can give you examples if you want a longer longer story here. 03:05.37 archpodnet Um, I think a question I've always had for you that I I think would be appropriate now and the audience might want to know too but like to me folsom and Clovis are different based on like obviously they're their typological point. But as paleoindians how similar are they. Like in like culture is it kind of just the same thing. 03:31.43 Todd I mean in terms of how they broke rocks I think they're pretty much the same we could. We could talk about some differences that I don't think are very significant like clovis people in the southern part of the United States made a lot of blades nowhere else did they seem to do that and folsom people don't seem to do that. Folsom people made prettier projectile points full clothes people made bigger ones. Um, but you know fundamentally I'm working on a clove a site now when I see olithic assemblage. There's nothing unusual about it that I haven't seen before after having looked at 45000 um pieces of folsom chipstone or more I mean to me the biggest difference between clovis and folsom is that Clovis was first and being first affords you opportunities. For example, clovisites are full of mammoths. 04:25.17 archpodnet Yeah. 04:27.81 Todd Folsom sites are not clovis people undoubtedly walked among giant ground slots and camels and horses and it's not clear that folsom people ever had that opportunity I imagine they talked about it because the memory of those animals was still alive and well in folsome times. But between clovis and folsom. You have a massive extinction event of of large animals and yet I feel like the basic lifeway of highly mogul Hunter Gatherers lives on Folsom people are still. Focusing their efforts on large game. Although the the largest ones that are left which are at that time bison Antiquus right? And of course another big difference is that you have full. You have clovis peoples in Florida California Maine Mexico. 05:10.77 archpodnet Spyson. 05:22.37 Todd Washington state you don't have folsom people in any of those places. Folsom is like is like a plains rocky mountain thing and mostly like a western plains and rocky mountain thing at least that's where most of the folsom occurs I mean it. There's a bigger range if we're looking to folsom points but like the really. well- documented folsom sites and most of the folsom stuff comes in like right off against the rocky mountains in the western plains and like in the rocky mountains. So. It's not a clear answer. But I mean similar lifestyle but like. 05:49.33 archpodnet Okay, um. 05:59.10 Todd All those animals are gone probably mostly gone. 06:01.59 archpodnet Yeah, okay, yeah, that's interesting I don't think we ever like establish that on the show yet. But so I won't bore you with asking more questions about your dissertation because if had to talk about my thesis one time I'll vomit or one more time I'll say but ah so. With you being interested in people in like the rocky mountain like plains area and how they lived their daily lives based on like their tools and whatnot. Um, what I guess I know what brought you to Mongolia to do that ethnowork research but like can you speak to that. And like why you were asking those questions. 06:42.10 Todd Sure, Um, no, it makes complete sense I mean a lot of people go into ethno archeology because they they observe something in the archaeological record that they don't understand and they they see an opportunity to study living people that and. 06:44.51 archpodnet If that made any sense. 07:01.60 Todd Think they can maybe gain some insight into into that phenomenon by seeing it happen in the real world and that was certainly the case with me I mean for me working on bark or gulch again. This incredible folsom site shallowly buried. We opened up these big areas where we got. Over 75000 pieces of chipstone and the focus of our work there mine and Nicole Waggispa's work was looking at the spatial distribution of human behavior through the spatial distribution of chip stone and also the social organization of people. And when you're looking at all these incredible patterns in chipstone I found because I like math and as you said I'm kind of data-b obsessed and like analyzing data makes me happier. In fact, spatial patterns which just like jumping out in me like all these interesting patterns and where bifacial thinning flakes are. Reduction flakes are non-looker raw materials are and whatever and here I can see houses in the spatial distribution of stone and hearth features but like trying to take all those spatial patterns and turn them back into interesting observations about human behavior in the past. Felt like we hadn't developed an understanding a theoretical theoretical models to translate patterns and stone tools on the ground to human behavior in the past and this is sort of a classic kind of bin forty and middle range theory observation right? like you want to understand how human behavior in the system. Living system translates to spatial patterns in the archaeological record or how do you do that. But 1 way to do do that is to to go study living people who are still living in nomadic lifestyle and and for me I had some really simple questions about you know how do people use space in nomadic contexts. And what? what factors are sort of governing how people use space and how they make spatial decisions spatial decisions about where to do things that I really didn't have any good answers to and no matter how much spatial ethno archeology I read I wasn't finding the answers there and I was like. And I got to go find some people and go study this in the in the real world and that's how I ended up in Mongolia I mean there's lots of places where I can study people using space starting with my own house or my own place of work. But I really wanted to study people living a nomadic lifestyle in a temperate environment and. Time there and even today there aren't many places in the world to do that. Mongolia was kind of a place of convenience for me because of prior because of I had friends and colleagues who had worked there politically was easy to work bureaucrat. It was an easy place to work like you know Russia. 09:48.71 archpodnet Yeah. 09:48.79 Todd Little bit challenging the stands Afghanistan tajikistan especially at the time politically iffy. You know. so so I got to monnggoli. 09:55.51 archpodnet Right? Cool? Um, So what you were doing I Guess I'll explain was like you had camera strapped to the I Guess big poles like near camp and you were just taking pictures of people. Occupying space throughout the day and mapping out where they most concentrated and the different seasons right. 10:19.46 Todd Yeah, that was one there were there were 2 major data collection efforts that was one using a time lapse camera that was just taking photos every 3 minutes you can map the location of people from those photos and it's not just mapping their. Location right? It's like who are they held are they what's their gender. What are they doing what equipment are they using is a huge amount of data in this photographs and and from that you can you can start to understand what's governing how people are using exterior spaces. 10:42.11 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:50.80 Todd Those cameras are limited in what they can see right and a lot of activity in Mongolia because it's a cold cold place happens inside. So for interior spaces. We were. We were simply using a paper form and would go into people's houses for 20 minutes and record where they were what they were doing to try to understand. Governing how people use interior space as well. 11:13.81 archpodnet Yeah, um, and one of the things I remember in one of your lectures was that you recorded that somebody was like smoking and playing candy crush and that was like part of the Ethogram or something like that um stuff like that like when I ask what keeps you up at night. Like I always wonder what the hell people were doing because it's freezing out like in clovis times like what are they doing in their tents like to keep occupied I'm assuming like stories and whittling. 11:44.64 Todd Yeah that's that's a that's a terrific question. You know one thing I notice about Mongolia living in Mongolia. It's not only like how I used my time when you take away the cell phone and the laptop and the television in the podcast like. You you got to fill your time right? Um I tend to fill in a much more productive way taking notes and reading books or going for hikes or taking photos doing things that are you know, kind of um I was admit well. 12:22.33 archpodnet Outlets. 12:23.72 Todd Yeah, outlets that are that but but better use of your time than than um, clicking scrolling through social media right? and and in Mongolia you know these folks living in tepe in the scion mountains in the middle nowhere they had televisions they had satellite televisions. 12:30.78 archpodnet A. 12:42.40 Todd Powered by batteries charged by solar panels and those would come on in the evening but they spent a lot more time doing things like craft crafts and it reminded me of sort of classic appalachian culture and I have roots in Appalachia and you know things like bluegrass. Music and singing in the way that people used to spend a lot more of their time embroidery making clothing repairing things. There's plenty to do if you live in a world where you can't go to Walmart and and just buy something that. That's replaceable or melts your brain and in the and Youtube um, so and also consider like and in like the paleliolithic or clovis times or whatever like when the when the light goes out and you just have a fire I mean you're probably sleeping a lot more. You probably can. Going to bed. You don't have this sort of long night life that that that we have today when when you're in camp when you're out and not out doing things not out foraging or gathering firewood I mean there's still plenty to do repairing shoes repairing clothes, repairing weapons. Making crafts I often think about all that like amazing craft work you see in the upper paleolithic of carving ivory and stuff. Um, making beads like it's a lot of time and effort that goes into that stuff but but but but forging peoples of the past I think had had a lot of downtime where. They filled it. They filled it with those kinds of things. 14:17.90 archpodnet Yeah, and like it's where we don't see much of it here in the Americas but I'm assuming it's just like probably good ahead like epic looking elk you know dresses or like jackets and stuff that were all bedazzled but it's just. Rots away. So like we can't see it. But yeah. 14:34.85 Todd We do find it I mean look yeah, certainly in the clovis period we don't have a lot of that stuff. But I mean we when we do have well- preservd sites. We do find it There's a lot of beads I mean when I'm when I'm working archaic for example, shell beads are not hard to find I've found a. Nice, partially drilled piece of steotite or soap stone in a site I was working in recently. Um, at laprele we have a bone bead bone needles. Um, you know it's if you're working at at mammoth and bison kills. Obviously you're not going to find it if you're working at sites where. Bones not well preserved organic matterds not well preserved. You're not going to find it. But I think there's plenty of it I think the reason why it's maybe so abundant and upper palelithic of Europe is because you're looking at you know thirty five thousand years of time piled up in these caves where you have incredible preserv basin. 15:27.66 archpodnet That's true. 15:29.77 Todd Whereas in the paleonian period right? Let's say in Wyoming where it lasts longer than it does almost anywhere. You're only looking at about maybe 4000 years of time like one tenth of what you have in Europe and our sample is nothing compared to what they have. 15:42.60 archpodnet Yeah, and they're spending most of that time exploring and figuring out the landscape and stuff. Um, interesting. Okay, um, so what was my next question I want you? yeah. 15:55.67 Todd I will say I will say David related to that we just had a master's defense thesis defense by Molly Heron who studied. Was looking at all these tiny little pieces of bone from a prole and she found evidence of ivory working from 2 hearth areas there so they're doing something with ivory. We don't know what they're making we have clear evidence that of clovis people working ivory at 2 different heart centered activity areas there. 16:21.84 archpodnet Okay, um I saw she defended I just didn't know what it was about. But that's awesome and obviously they were painting or doing some kind of like staining or something with ochre. Um. 16:31.90 Todd Um, yeah, and opal occurs in almost all of these domestic sites. Anyway. 16:36.71 archpodnet Yeah, since I've been like messing around with that am I it just it gets everywhere so I can see I could see why it's all over that site. Um, yeah, like it's cut. My arms are covered in it but making hand sprays and it's like it's very messy. Um. So I think I'll wrap it up at the segment right here. But after this I want to ask you just like everything about clovis and paleowindianss so we'll be right back with Dr Todd serwell