00:00.00 archpodnet And we're back with episode one zero nine so for this last segment we're going to be talking about a little bit of experimental archeology and if you've seen the life and ruins podcast insta recently you've seen that we've did a little bit of that and I know one of my favorite things about experimental archeology is that it's really easy to get people. Like the public involved like we do a lot of that with my intro to archeology courses. We have like an ancient tech day where we have at lottle throwing and in this recent experiment. We actually had one of my um lifelong friends who flew up for my graduation I've known him since third grade and he has no idea what I do but we actually brought him out with us for the atlatter experiment and he was like. This is your job and I'm like well this is part of it just we get to throw these spears at a high-speed camera with different weights and he's like just blown away by some of the like actual research that we do conduct and we were trying to explain to them the whole purpose of it and this wasn't just meaningless and that's why we have all these people including professional neanderthal. Dawnny dust out there with us throwing darts. You know so professional I love Dan and dust I don't know if you follow him but like his just professional Caveman I guess is what he is, um, absolutely he was on the show alone? yeah. 00:57.65 Anna Professional neanderthal. Yep. 01:11.17 Anna I Should yeah he sounds like someone I should know oh huh Not oh not I'm sorry I was thinking of naked and afraid very different. Okay, okay. 02:31.38 archpodnet Yeah, like that's just. 02:41.24 archpodnet Fair enough, same same concept but alone more people have clothes. Yeah it it is so what has been your experience with conducting experiments archeology and like you know off of that. 01:46.85 Anna And for mind. Yeah I mean that's Fine. What a strange thing. Reality Tv is ah. 03:19.38 archpodnet You know what do you see at the intrinsic value of conducting such type of research. 02:30.50 Anna So I mean I think experimental archeology is incredibly valuable. Um, as long as the research methods are sound which is I know opening a whole other can of worms that that I don't really want to dive into just because it it brings up a lot of debate and like technical technical stuff. That's not really what I want to talk about I I really like experimental archeology for a lot of reasons one. It's it's really fun. It's really a way to kind of try to connect to the experiences of the past you're never going to really replicate someone's life in the past, but it's 1 thing to think about or talk about or. Or statistically analyze the the act of flint napping right? or but it's another thing to see and hear someone creating a tool out of a hunk of rock and to sort of try to learn how to do it and and realize. How much skill it really does take know um a lot of these things that that people did in the past subsistence of the past just living in the past with with no metal or and no toilets and no you know, no mass produced items and no. Supermarkets to go show. You'd have to hunt and gather everything that you needed for your life and we're so removed from that now and so for me experimental archeology is just so interesting because it's. A way to try to access that and to try to find ways to address questions about archaeological materials by using but but by experiencing things and so what really got. And this is this is a research project that I'd never actually ended up doing and frankly I'm I'm kind of grateful but I was so interested in it I really I fell down such a research rabbit hole but I got really really interested in ah meat fermentation. So let me back up. My dissertation again was on neanderthal subsistence and hunting and nutrition. So a lot of that was me compiling data and crunching a lot of numbers which is just really funny because math was the thing I was abysmal at in in school but figuring out what. Neanderthals metabolic needs were just to sort of exist what they needed in terms of calories and nutrients and all of that compared to homo sapiens and to kind of plot out using mathematical models which I collaborated with someone for I didn't I didn't do them. But. 07:59.37 Anna To to plot out these models of how different populations of humans, homo sapiens and neanderthals would survive if placed in different circumstances. You know in competition for resources. Um, so jumping off of that I started thinking about nutrition and I started thinking about. The neanderthals that were living in particularly resource poor areas or resource or particularly challenging climates. Let's say because neanderthals lived in in Europe for over two hundred and fifty thousand years so there were a lot of different climate conditions and obviously it's a huge region europe is really big. And so there's lots of different landscapes and in some of those landscapes it was really cold for a lot of the time, especially during glacial periods. Um, which would mean that that resources might have been pretty scarce and so I was I was trying to think about would these populations living. Let's say in winter during a glacial phase in the northernmost reaches of of Non-g glaciated Europe what would their available nutrition have been like and would they just have been starving all the time and you know would they have been malnourished or would there have been a way for them to. Get some of the nutrients they needed from things that they they could access and so I started researching around and I I started to find that um there was a lot of not a lot There was a specific little pocket of study. About fermented meat and meat caching so caching is is storing something whether it's food or resources like tools or weapons storing it for later if you're not going to be there, but let's say it's ah it's a hunting camp that you return to every year but you don't want to carry all your stuff with you. You just want to bring the essentials. From camp to camp you cache things so that other animals or other people won't find your stuff. Um, and then you you come back to it later. Um, and the hypothesis that neanderthals and and maybe even homo sapiens just hunter gatherer groups were caching meat in a way that would. Ah, block out oxygen and cause lactic acid fermentation was was something that really kind of caught my interest, especially because of a twenty seventeen I think he might have originally written it in 2015 but the version that I found was. Online published online in 2017 I think and I can give you the link for this but as a paper by John Sp ah called something like putrid meat and fish and in the paleolithic like really like a really grabby title like oh cool, gross. Um. 13:29.53 Anna And he talks about and John Smith is a great writer of archeology articles because he writes like a person like he writes not like an academic but he writes like a really really good lecturer in ah, a really good archeology class who's like building this story for you and really getting you into. The material. But also it's it's incredibly well researched. It's a really solid paper. Um, and so he talks about the need of the human body's need for micronuuttrients and macronutrients and so that's like vitamins minerals carbohydrates, fat protein etc. And the different types of food and alterations of food resources that can provide those things and he especially talked about the need for vitamin c and the need to avoid overdoing it on protein and vitamin a so a couple things can happen. Um. If you eat too much protein. So listen up keto people. First of all talk to a medical doctor before you start the keto diet. Thank you? Um, if you eat too much protein and this is like exclusive almost exclusively protein. Um, you can get sick and die because basically the body. Is not able to process all of that protein it is lacking the fats and carbohydrates that it needs in moderation to to operate and you can um, overload your I think it's your liver and your kidneys with um uurric acid is that the one. Is a condition called rabbit starvation and it's named after fur trappers in sort of the 18 hundreds in in the Americas who would be trapping rabbits for their fur and eating the rabbits because they were only using the fur and so they were eating super well they were. You know full every night but they were only eating rabbit and rabbits sort of a very nothing meat. It's really lean protein and so they were basically um, poisoning themselves they were they were starving to death while they were just full of food. Um, and so ways to counteract that include um. Eating a lot of fat along with your protein. So if you have a really high protein diet and there's really nothing. You can do about it. You can compensate by eating a lot of fat and that's the case with Arctic diets. So arctic, indigenous populations. Um, who eat a lot of especially during the winter will eat a lot of sea mammal. Meat and stuff. They will also consume the fat the blubber of those animals in in large quantities. Um, so that's part of it. The other part is that um fermentation does a lot of really cool things that are kind of akin to digestion and. 19:07.59 Anna 1 of the things that it does is it makes specifically for meat. It makes meat more nutritionally available. So it breaks it down partially in the same way that cooking does except that cooking destroys vitamins if cooking breaks down vitamins and fermentation does not so if you have fermented meat you can um. Kind of reclaim some of those vitamins and your meat is a little bit more nutritionally valuable than it would be if it was just ah raw or cooked like fresh meat. So I got really really interested in this and this idea of kind of alternative nutrition based on the deliberate. Alteration of of meat and whether neanderthals might have been doing this and whether it was just sort of a ah natural byproduct of the act of caching meat like of storing it for later or if this was kind of like. Ah, deliberate thing and and how would you be able to tell that in the archaeological record so I had all these plans and I was designing all of this research to to do like meat fermentation experiments um and in retrospect that would have been so gross. It would like i. It is research that actually I know I happen to know is being done so I really look forward to whenever I know that someone's grad student was doing it um a few years ago and so I really hope that they continue to do that. So I don't have to but I I really I would love to learn more about. Just sort of people doing different things to the resources they have to make them to improve them in some way to make them benefit them more. Um and so that I mean that was my sort of ill-advised side trip. Into a possible experiment I was going to apply for an nsf grant I had the grant like 90% written and then I got a teaching job and so that sort of went by the wayside and and frankly I think it turned out for the best because I I do have a very sensitive stomach and I think it was probably ill-advised. Um. but but I I still am very very fond of experimental archeology and my partner actually ah most of her research is based on experimental archeology which is why we have ah a freezer full of cowbones and ah and a shed full of deer bones and ah and a butcher's bone saw. Um. So I haven't escaped it completely. But um, yeah, she studies neanderthal bone tools and so works with bone and bone surfaces and ah tries to evaluate them microscopically. But yeah, um, so. 24:37.67 Anna I just for any time period in any place I think there's so much to be done with experimental awkward like I love youtube videos that show like oh we're trying to as authentically as possible build this iron age style house using. Only. Types of tools that they would have used like I love projects like that I love when people just really go all in and like we're wearing hides and we've tied elk teeth to them and now we're going to dance for hours to see if there's different wear on the teeth from being you know, strung together. Um. I love things like that and so what I would love to see because I think this is such a cool tool for engagement is to to see this stuff happening to see people trying this stuff out often with sort of you know failure as a consequence because. We don't necessarily know how how everything would have worked in the past there's a lot of missing pieces and so trying to fill in those pieces can often be illuminating or comical or frustrating or sort of terrible. Um, so I I would love to see this is my sort of semi-serious pitch for a tv show that I want to see or like a Youtube show that I want to see. Um, where do you remember the show dirty jobs with Mike Rowe yeah I want that but for archeology so like a nonpert it could be an archeologist but just like a non expertt in you know, obviously it's not someone who knows every time period everywhere but a host who. 27:57.94 archpodnet Oh absolutely I. 27:35.61 Anna Talks to expert experimenters in a particular who are looking at particular questions about a time or place like an iron age house. Whatever and tries to do the things so like is guided through the process. A so people can see how experimental archeology is done and how how. Like how the research methods are are built up and how good research is conducted because not all experimental archeology is good research and you do need to have you know you you need to account for variables and you need to have a solid plan. But um I want to see. The research methods presented but I also just want to see a non-expert trying to do the things that people in the past did every day because I want to show how skilled people were in the past a lot of times because the know technology in the past is. Certainly not as advanced it as it as it is today but that doesn't mean that people weren't skilled. It doesn't mean that people didn't know how to do really amazing things and so I want to show these experts. You know, ah creating adhesive out of birch bark and using it to have to point onto. Ah an arrowhead I want to see. Someone? Um, you know building an at-latter I want to see someone um, tanning a hide you know things things that would have been pretty normal commonplace activities a hundred two hundred a thousand a zillion years ago um I want to see the expert do it I want to see the the novice try to do it and I want the context of what what it would be like for the lives of the people in the past and and how it sort of compares to our experience today I think that would be a really really fun show to watch I There are not enough hours in the day. Otherwise I would I would pitch it and make it myself but maybe in the future. But. 32:27.56 archpodnet And I think the pawe nation Tippo is doing some experimental archeology or ethnography right now because then rock art and ledger art pawnies are usually depicted wearing black moccasins and we're trying to figure out how you do that like how do you get moccasins like. 31:44.19 Anna O Ok how you die them? are you? Oh that's so interesting I was I was going to ask if it was well that. 32:57.88 archpodnet How do you die on black like what do you use to die in black. So he's been doing some things that we've been texting back and forth if he's figured it out yet I think it leads to something to do with walnuts So that's that's that's the new one. He's doing yeah. 32:23.45 Anna That's making me sound like I totally am lying but I I swear because well like I've um because I've made Yeah, that's unpleasant. 33:33.74 archpodnet He's tried to couple things and it's just not. It hasn't been it. They make them gray not black. So next one is because but though you know you start crushing walnut shells and that stuff's just everywhere right. 32:53.41 Anna No, it's you your hands are like splotchy for a week yeah I've made um there's a so remember when I did research in the south of France because I'm so fancy. There is a drink there called van and noir. Very popular in that region because that region is famous for its walnuts and so you basically take green like well they're black walnuts but they are green because they're not ripe yet. You take green walnuts and sort of let them steep in a combination of of red wine and brandy and spices for a couple months and it sort of. Mellows into this really really delicious. Sort of magical potion. Um, but yeah, so we so we harvested some green. Well let's and cut them up and it just like I forgot to wash my hands soon enough after doing that and then like all of a sudden the die like it. It. Um. It oxidates oxidizes and and then just like oh god no. So yeah I was I was ah stained but I bet I bet I hope walnut works. That's interesting. 36:00.96 archpodnet Yeah I'd like a nice pair of like black casual moccasins those be pretty sweet but it's been a pleasure talking to you like this has been so much fun, Excellent. So before we end the show. 35:11.87 Anna Um, yeah, or oh likewise I've had a blast. 36:28.84 archpodnet And what are a couple sources that you would recommend for anyone interested in zoo archaeology podcasting or experimental archaeology. 35:40.29 Anna Oh boy well for podcasting. It's such a broad thing. Um the the nuts and bolts of podcasting if you if you want to know specifically how Amber and I um make the dirt both sort of our. Philosophy behind the show and and the actual steps and software and and and hardware that we use we did a out I'll dig up the link for this. We did a workshop for the Oklahoma Public Archeology Network that was recorded and I believe is on their Youtube channel just. Exactly about that. But otherwise there are tons of tutorials online for how to set up a basic recording setup. It's one of the great things about podcasting as a medium for for creating stuff is that it's it's a pretty low cost entry point and. It's a reasonably shallow learning I mean I'm sure it'll depend on who's doing the learning but it's it's a pretty shallow learning curve. Um, there are even a lot of apps now that are just sort of plug and play. Um, so in terms of podcasting and learning how to do it. I would say just listen to a lot of your favorite podcasts and and emulate the things that they do um the things that you like about them the the way that they structure their show if if it seems to work for them. Try it out see if it works for you or you know eventually you'll find your own voice. But for zo archeology. Um. I would like to shamelessly plug an episode of the dirt which is the funa with fauna episode. We have fun with our titles but that is episode 59 of the podcast and we break down what zoaraeology is and talk about a few case studies. And and sort of what those show about the lives of people through the lens of the animals that they interacted with so that's a fun one. Um I mentioned flint dibble before but he's phenomenal on Twitter like he creates a lot of Twitter threads not only breaking down concepts of zoo archeology and um. Ah, how you can learn about the past through it but also just a lot of he debunks a lot of pseudoscience and pseudo archeology on there. He also has a Youtube channel where he's posted several of his lectures. So if you want to get a little bit deeper into just. And a little bit more than just basic introductory zo work I would say start there and then if you want to get even deeper I can recommend 2 actual textbooks 1 is the archeology of animal bones by Terry O'connor which is is pretty approachable. It is definitely an academic book. 41:21.33 Anna But it's it's written in a pretty straightforward and accessible way and then an introduction to zo archeology by Diane Gifford Gonzalez it does exactly what it says on the tin. It's an introduction to zoharc. But yeah. 42:46.10 archpodnet So excellent and where can our listeners find you on social media. 41:56.71 Anna If you don't want to go on social media. You can just go to the http://dirtpod.com because all of our socials feed right to the web page. But if you do want to join the dumpster fire that is Twitter you can find me at Anna Goldfield just just my name and you can find the dirt at dirt podcast. And then you could also follow me on Instagram me specifically if you mostly want pictures of food and cats. But I'm at puppy digs and the dirt is at the dirt pod on insta. 43:53.12 archpodnet And excellent and if given the chance which you still choose to live a life in ruins. 43:07.29 Anna Oh yeah i' I live in a life pre ruins I'm living a life in caves baby. 44:16.28 archpodnet Excellent. That's the oh perfect I love that pre-rus first one all right? Well everyone we just interviewed Dr Anna Goldfield you can find her on Twitter at at Andnna Goldfield and of course the dirt at at je podcast as well as Instagram at puppy digs and at. Dirt Pod please be sure to rate the podcast and provide us with any feedback on whichever podcasting platform you're using to listen to our show and as always if you're listening to this episode on the all shows feed. Please go find the life ruins podcast and subscribe to us there and follow us and listen to our podcast on our page to help us grow our channel. Um, and help us ah eventually take over the dirt podcast and with that we and with that we are out. 44:41.57 Anna I Believe in you do it.