00:00.00 connor Welcome back to episode none about life and ruins podcast we are here with Dr David S Anderson talking Mya stuff things buildings collapse maybe not collapse tolum sono dayss. You know all the things and I had a really. A question that I guess you know I would you would probably get in your archeology 1 to 1 classes like so how do you tell that this collapse is happening um and is it is it because you're seeing sterile layers in in your digging or is it something different. 00:36.14 David Anderson Ah, yeah, so there's there's a lot of more nuanced ways that we were able to see abandonment of sites in the archaeological record this is particularly well studieded in the desert southwest and whatnot where you see you know you see no more new pottery. You see a buildings being abandoned and whatnot. Ah. But that's something that's taken a lot of knowledge to understand ah in terms of interpreting the archaeological record. We've known about the maya collapse for a much longer period of time than a lot of other ancient collapses if you will ah because of the long count calendar and the classic maya. Ah, just absolute adoration for keeping time like if you know most people have heard of the maya calendar especially even seems like even my students today still know about the None debacle of like was the world going to come to an end or not ah the classic maya ah cities. Ah, one of the most popular things for rulers to do was to erect stla or these these standing stone monuments and they would carve pictures of themselves on them and they would write hieroglyphic inscriptions on them about usually focused on the ruler's great deeds and. There's an obsession with timekeeping on every single one of these monuments. It starts with a long count calendar which counts the number of days since the beginning of creation and after that it gives you a 360 day calendar cliff and after that it gives you a none calendar after that it gives you a lord of the night calendar after that it'll give you a moon calendar and then sometimes it'll give you an None day calendar and then they'll count the number of days that happen next and they'll give you the 360 day calendar again and the 260 day calendar again. These monuments are just coded in in calendars. Ah, so much so that in the early days ah sort of in the 40 s and the 50 s j eric s thompson was ah None of the early sort of scholars on maya writing Thompson was convinced that all maya writing was collindric and astrology or astronomy like that's it. And it turns out that it's it's actually historical like seventy five eighty percent of the inscription is a calendar but the calendar is to tell you when something happened and so there's like None or 3 glyphs of like the ruler was seated on the throne or ah, the ruler you know married this person. And then like the rest of it is all the dates on which it happened but the really cool thing and this is where our idea of collapse came from with the maya is the vast majority of the the long count calendar dates from the classic period are in what's known as the ninth baktune which is one of the cycles of this calendar. 05:58.14 David Anderson There's a few early eight boktun dates and there's like a couple of ten boctun dates and that's it all of a sudden these people stopped erecting these monuments and this was you know the initial interpretation of these the disappearance of these monuments was okay, total collapse the civilizations gone what we have a better idea of now is that you know what those monuments were erected by rulers about rulers. It turns out that it kind of looks like people told the rulers to go away. And so instead you know you stop getting those giant monuments and they stop building giant pyramids and the people the population doesn't die or disappear they move out into the jungle and they start living in smaller houses and archeological survey in The maya lowlands is incredibly hard. You're in a dense forest or a dense jungle depending where you are finding pyramids I was just saying you can like hit a pyram of a machete without seeing it sometimes finding a little house in that jungle is sometimes next to impossible. And so it really looked like the maya population disappeared but really it became more or less invisible to archaeology. Basically. 04:38.52 archpodnet We got you and this term we' we've used this term collapse a couple times already and it's like highly problematic in archeology and so they were kind of using to describe what they believed was going on in the um blake classic or terminal classic that ah people just. Disappeared as a form of collapse and so what you're saying it's more.. It's not necessarily a collapse of a civilization per se but it was a change in social organization where leaders were basically kicked out and people voted with their feet. 09:46.46 David Anderson Yeah, yeah. 05:47.68 archpodnet Like there wasn't a mass disappearance. It was just a change in social organization and. 10:01.94 David Anderson We We clearly get like ah I don't want to like be pejorative here, but it is easy to view Maya a house these maya leaders as kind of egotistical like they they spend their entire times erecting monuments telling everybody how great they are. Which I guess a lot of leaders do stuff like that. But you know it doesn't seem too surprising that people might have gotten tired of that at some point. 11:28.50 connor Well and and some of the and are there some theories why during these time periods these rulers ah is there Stress Environmental stress is there population change is there something going on here that is causing. Folks to be like yeah, don't trust them anymore I'm going to go make my own farm I'm tired of this crap. You know so. 11:34.32 David Anderson Yeah, yeah, there in the early days there was a lot of hunting for monocausal explanations and it turns out. Of course. There's a lot there. There are multiple causes and early literature on the collapse talked about it as v collapse. And more. It's become more and more clear that this is a you know, roughly 200 year phenomenon and so you know nothing. You know there's no single cause for a 200 year phenomenon and this sort of gradual decline of these large classic cities. There's a few things going on. Um. We see to to stick with rulers since we've been talking about rulers. We see a proliferation of of um of place name glyphs. So it's like more and more people are saying I've got a kingdom too and it's like. And so there are more and more political units that start to crop up like as smaller sites start to claim equal status to the bigger sites. We see a proliferation of titles when the little when the smaller sites start to pop up. That's when we start to get to some of these like Kahula cow ah Koul ahao terms. Where it's like no no I'm ah I'm not just in a how I'm ah a son a how I'm a big a how and so there's clearly competition among the elites and proliferation among the elites which probably stressed the system. You know it's it's a growing class divide kind of problem where you have more and more elites who want to erect monuments about themselves. Instead of growing corn which tends to cause problems for people. There's definitely some signs of increase in warfare at this point in time. There's ah, some not many but several myocites have city walls. And those city walls become more common during sort of that late terminal classic period ah, and the the real kicker though is that there are some nice ah sedimentary cores from different lakes and southern in the Southern Lowlands ah that have shown extreme droughts coming and going during this period of time as well and the the maya a how they were divine Kings yeah, they claimed to be not just political leaders but religious leaders as well and when when there are no rains and you are both the religious and the political leader There aren't a lot of other people to blame. And so they take all of the blame in that sense too and so there's no great that I'm trying to think if there's some great examples of sort of uprising of the the lower class so rising up against the upper class and I'm not sure. There's ah a murdered royal family outside of the palace in Conton Queen 16:44.30 David Anderson Ah, but it's not clear like the entire family is ah found in a a water cistern outside of the palace like they were all dumped in there after they had died and that but that that very easily could have been elite on elite warfare versus a class uprising as well in the same sort of way. But yeah, it's it's sort of ah it's a. You know a combination of factors. There are droughts which nobody likes a drought and people go hungry and people are hungry. They get angry and then we definitely have these you know problems with proliferating elites and rising levels of violence and ultimately that that tears down it takes 200 years ah but it tears down this classic bias system that had been thriving so widely. 14:04.54 archpodnet That fair enough now one explanation I have heard that's often talked about is that um, overarming of the Maya region led to um soil erosion and you know basically seriously ah. 18:23.96 David Anderson On. 14:41.62 archpodnet Created issues in agricultural output which caused ah Malthusian Overshoot which is this idea of civilizations hit this precipice where they can no population exceeds agricultural yield and and then you know if you don't have enough food then you get starvation. 19:02.34 David Anderson But. 15:12.96 archpodnet And a whole host of other things that come with people dying in mass such as famine disease and that's kind of what leads to it is that still thought of in in the maya region as well, right. 19:34.30 David Anderson There's definitely some evidence for deforestation and over farming and whatnot. That's definitely part of the pre-classic collapse too where we see some sort of excessive levels of erosion happening and so clearly that does come into the mix in a certain way. Um, we have a problem in my archeology with ah carrying capacity this idea of that you're raising here of like how much food can you grow and therefore how many people can you support and we don't understand ah to this day we are still struggling to fully understand my ah agricultural practices. Ah, because there's varying ways there's basic slash and burn agriculture which happens a lot as far as we can tell but the the numbers we have today suggest that slash and burn agriculture wouldn't support a lot of people. And so we we know that there's some terracing absolutely in the southern lowlands and in the highlands there are terracing that's happening that helps increase yield and gets more population. Ah, but then there's a lot like the northern lowlands where Chi Chenita is where teoom is you can't terrace anything up there. It's all flat. And there's some definite evidence There's a big push in the the 80 s and the 90 s of looking for raised field agriculture in the various swamps in the region and some were found There's like pul treser swamp the North Belize is the classic example. There's a. Some really good gracefield agriculture that was happening during the classic Maya period this is sort of chinompa style agriculture. The the aztecs we're doing. It's incredibly productive. It can grow a lot of food. Um, but it's the same problem with terraces. There aren't swamps over the entirety of the Maya world. There are lots of parts of the Maya world that don't have swamps and so. You it comes back to a place like cchenia which we started talking about where you went quch. Che's huge. It's like Twenty Square kilometers there are none of people living there. You cannot terra it. You cannot do racefield agriculture. Ah, you're going to be entirely dependent on slash and burn millpa style agriculture. And the numbers we have today kind of suggest that mealpe agriculture could not have supported that many people and obviously they can be importing food. There's there's great trade systems. We have a really good evidence of that qi chen was bringing in trade goods from central Mexico and whatnot. So maybe they're bringing in a lot of food. But. She tends not the only Maya City in the northern lowlands and so we're we're really kind of still in a conundrum, especially as I mentioned those lidar surveys earlier. We keep finding more and more evidence there more and more people living in this part of the world and that sort of. 24:47.90 David Anderson Math on you know, carrying capacity and how we feed people is still problematic and so you know anyone loves agriculture and archeology. We need you in the Maya world. 25:44.14 connor So yeah, and there's only so many people you can throw into the sanote and you know at Che end before people will start realizing that you're you're not producing enough to you can only check the population so much. Sorry bad bad joke. We can get that. 25:28.50 David Anderson It's like do it the 2 26:21.76 connor Um, yeah. 21:45.42 archpodnet No I think that was excellent because like that's also you know's kind of talking about the the mya region like we've useds that word sinote and probably I haven't described it. Those are like that whole region is basically limestone and basically sinottes are these like underground. 26:10.56 David Anderson Yes. 22:19.20 archpodnet Fresh water systems many connect to each other They're extremely dangerous to scubaai but it's like this readily available fresh water. That's some have sacred significance and you know they're basically just giant deep holes in the ground that. You you could throw someone in and they're not getting out. There's like a lot of cool culture maya cultural things associated with them and then if you go what I did you could swim in None which is super fun and cool. But. 26:55.38 David Anderson No. 27:11.24 David Anderson Oh yes, no the sinotess are amazing and they're fun to swim in and it's like I mentioned earlier there are no rivers like the northern half of the yucaon peninsula there are basically no rivers because you have this limestone topography where any water is going to filter through that limestone and it filters down into this subterranean aquifer. That it underlies the entire peninsula and yeah, then when the limestone collapses into a sinkhole that you get a sinote and so there are lots of small. We. We used to call them posos which it means well in spanish I'm not sure how you know what? the the pre-contact Maya would have referred to them as but. You have lots of tiny openings into that aquifer where you can safely get water. But then you occasionally get these really large ones and sometimes like at two 10 it's ah bo i. It's at least like thirty meters would you say does that sound about right Carlton about thirty meters from the ground surface down to that water and it's a straight cliff down to it. 24:56.40 archpodnet So the one I think the one that's at there's there's 2 around chein. There's actually apparently one underneath a pyramid that they found which we couldn't see and then there's like the sacred sinotte around Chi Chi which was closed off. 29:13.28 David Anderson Oh yeah. 25:26.90 archpodnet So we had to like take a bus ride 10 minutes down the road but it was like I have videos of it. It's something similar. It's it's a substantial drop like I was winded climbing back up those slippery stairs like just to turn in my life jacket like it was it was substantial like at least like a 4 our-story drop down in there. 29:40.30 David Anderson Yeah, yeah. 30:40.48 connor Yet. 30:04.52 David Anderson Yeah, now it's It's a long way down to that walk Aquifer sometimes. 26:04.20 archpodnet Wow. 30:49.50 connor Yeah, and my and for my remembrance of it I I feel like it was like thirty meters or like a you know a hundred feet where you're like you know I ain't making it up that back up that very easily you know, not without people noticing. You know it's it's and there there is evidence right of of. Human sacrifice and and things being kind of um I guess thrown into there depending on I'm not sure and within the context but there is stuff that they found at the bottom of. 31:04.88 David Anderson Yes, yes, absolutely. In fact, I'd have to double check this. But ah as I understand it the the the sinote the sacredynote at None chinesea was dived by scuba divers back I believe it's in the sixty s. And it's that one of the none times that scuba technology versus other kinds of diving technology was actually used because and sure enough. Yes, absolutely all kinds of things were tossed into that sinote lots of pottery lots of artifacts some gold. We'd. Don't get a lot of gold with the maya actually but there's some gold artifacts that came out of there and yes, absolutely human remains came out of there that we do have some people who for you know, either willingly or or some one way or another were ended up jumping into or pushed into this space too. 28:40.78 archpodnet And so also clarification and I maybe not clarification but people talk about like olmec and Maya Jade but isn't it true that Jade only comes from a specific region in China and what they have down in central america is not technically jade. 33:09.98 David Anderson That is my total understanding that from a mineralogical geological perspective. It is not jade. We do have several sources at least None or 3 sources if not more of greenstone or jadite or serpentine. Ah, but it's often referred to as jade as a sort of a general overcast. But as I understand it mineralogically that is incorrect to call it. Jade. 29:59.65 archpodnet It. It's like saying something not made in the champagne region of France it' like bubbling wine. You know if it's not made there. It's technically not chip paid. It's credit to silverol. It's not in China it's not tactically Jade Wright well excellent 34:39.40 connor So. Exactly that's that's exactly. 34:24.64 David Anderson Actually None of my favorite artifacts comes out of the the Chi Che sinotte since you brought up olmec it. It sparked my memory. There's ah, an olac carving in jade or green stone or serpentine that came up out of the Chi Che sinotte and stylistically it seems very obvious that is olmec olmec is a culture found in the Gulf Coast Coast of Mexico that dates back to that pre-classic period chich chenisa is very much a late classic if not post-classic phenomenon so there's you know a good to almost two thousand years between these sites. Ah, but there is an olmec object that came up out of this sinote and it very clearly has mya hieroglyphic writing carved into the back of it and so you have an ancient object that curated. Ah, interacted with and written on by Maya Scribes that ends up getting donated into that sinote as well. Yeah is a registration? Yes, yes. 36:47.30 connor So was it like the site number you know like it's they're doing a kid. They're doing the curation. So we're just witnessing the None archaeologists at least that we know in the mind folks. Oh This was found in this date on over here and then. You know to preserve it you toss it into the water because water it preserves Underwater Ah I think on that note ah we're going to end this segment. This is episode None and we will be right back. 36:43.68 David Anderson No I let's go preserve the Jade it'll be good.