00:00.00 archpodnet And welcome back I hope you guys enjoyed the sweet suite sound of our producer Chris Webster and all of his advertisements. We're back here with episode none with Dr David S Anderson and we kind of wanted to chat get into now what we were. Mentioning at the beginning of the episode kind of about cultural heritage and reflect upon the the trip that I had and um, something that kind of like caught me off guard like right off right? off the bat I mean I made me right off the bat's not the right right word but like on our none bus ride from. Plaau Carmen to chi chinia the tour guide like gave us a spiel to set the stage for what we're about to visit and there is like interesting facts that we learned about like the antiquity of the maya from like you know going because. Maya would go back as far as 10000 bc and I was like that's a really neat way to connect contemporary and maya culture with you know paleo indian components like that's fantastic and but what really grabbed me and what I was super excited for is to go to the ball court like that's what I wanted to see and I and i'm. Like standing in the ball court like just taking in the majesty of it and the tour guide says so this isn't a ball court like would you want to bounce a ball on these precious stones and break them and me and my partner who's also an archaeologist like we looked at each other like. This is the ball court and he's saying it's not a ball court like I don't like my brain broke I was like I don't what wait? what? But it's right I see them like and he's talking about the dynamics of like well do you really think you can hit a ball with your hips that high and he and he talked about modern. Ball games and how it's played on the ground I was like wait. It made me made me question myself so I and that was kind of had me thinking a lot and reflecting on on the experience of was that a ball court I guess like I was really just like thrown. Really thrown off kilter I was like I thought I was an expert in this kind of stuff or at least knowledgeable. Um and what I did find interesting about the trip is that he did claim to be he said he wasn't maya. He was a different he was ancestral to a different group in the in the basin in Mexico. Um. 02:24.22 David Anderson The. 04:54.34 archpodnet Can't remember the name Notlush I think he I think he mentionedlosh Colin which I think is what he said he was and he would talk about yeah he was like i'mwash collon I'm not mine but they always made sure when we went to cheich it says like listen we're going to a mayan ah our our art teas and old mayan shop later. 02:34.98 David Anderson Okay, yeah, talk column. 05:29.18 archpodnet Don't buy any of this chinese crap here wait till later and then like when I went to my trip on to Tulum the next day it was like the same artisanal mayan products in like there I was like okay and. So maybe it wasn't it was you know it's part of an industry. You're supporting local economy. They're selling and they're selling an experience. That's the purpose of it. It's like Disney World they're they're selling you the experience of being at this place. Um, and I mean still is like two hundred bucks like it was still so like the whole day was $200 to book you know like it was. 03:38.22 David Anderson Yeah, yeah. 06:37.70 archpodnet Relatively super cheap for something I would have done here in the state. So having your authority one was that ball court actually used for ballgames at Chi Chi itsa how 04:30.98 David Anderson Ah, you know it is actually questionable. Um, my question on it is not about like it would have been fine. It's stone you can bounce rubber off a stone and it won't really hurt the stone. The funny thing about the quote unquote great ball court. Of cuchannisa is that it is at at at least twice as large as the next largest known ball court anywhere in the Maya world. Um, there's there is clearly variability in how this game was played. Ah, because all the courts are different sizes. All of them are slightly different angles to the the banquetas on them. Some of them have rings some of them don't have rings. Ah, clearly there were different ways to play this game. But scaling any game up twice as large as the the next largest known court is absolutely going to be hard if not impossible. Um I tend to think of that that great ball court at Chi Che as more ceremonial. They place I'm sure somebody bounced a ball in there at some point or another but I don't think it would have been. You know that this is the thing this is the shtick I don't know if I've talked with you guys about this before some of my graduate school research was on Maya Ball courts and we found a whole bunch of tiny ones at little tiny villages. And most of the literature out there about the maya ball game is elite. How do the rulers do this How do they play it. There's depictions of rulers playing it and whatnot was sacrifice involved probably not ah but what we do know is that this was a real game that people played as a sport. For fun and competition. There. You know this is and it was not just the maya. This is a game that was played all through Mesoerica that great ball cor at Chi Chen I I wouldn't say the same reasons he told you but I would say that you know I would look at that a bit askance as whether it would have been a normal game space. Ah, because it's just so big and I mean the the comment about could you get a ball up there. The the rings the q chen ball court has rings that are really high and so yeah, that would be hard and None of my favorite things to do by the way. Is to take students and make them try to play the mayaball game because you have to knock it off your hip. You can't kick it or touch it with your hand and I love like watching students try to like fumble a ball around and mock it back and forth off their hip um getting it all the way up to that hoop would have been high. The. 09:32.78 David Anderson But we don't know that the rings were used for scoring like there's a really common thing like look. It's a ring. It's like a basketball hoop or something like you throw it through there. You score a point. Ah, the only really comment we have that I'm aware of about the ring. It comes from Diego Delanda who was a spanish priest who by the way burned a whole bunch of maya books as well. Ah, but he wrote his own book and he mentions I'd have to double check the exact wording of this but it's ah something to the effect of like if the ball goes through the hoop the game ends and some people took that to be like you know you scored a point that team won but you can also read that to be a. Oh my god the ball went through the hoop stop now. We're not playing anymore and so it's like yeah like the the fact that that ring is so high in qn doesn't really bother me because I don't think that that was necessary because like I said there's lots of ball courts without hoops that. That hoop. Yeah, it seems a little bit more like a hacky sack like it seems like the main point is to not drop the ball pass it back and forth. Don't drop it. You drop it That's your bad and your team loses a point. But yeah, so this is the the thing is that when you guys know this is like interpretation of archeological materials is hard. And there's not None set answer more often than not I mean there's some you know some good things that we have some canology we can dial into and whatnot and it's it's a struggle ah to find good information about these sites and the people seeking out tours guides usually are the ones who want more information about sites and. There's a general struggle of you know what is a good way to tell a story about these sites. 15:15.58 archpodnet I fair and and I do want to make the comment said to create like a modern day analogy like modern us baseball stadiums have variability not necessarily like 1 is double the size of all the others. But. 07:38.00 connor So for sure out. 13:06.74 David Anderson Yeah, true. 15:46.16 archpodnet You know you've heard about like the green wall at at the cubs like there is variability and in modern day baseball fields in terms of distance height and so it's not unheard of to have variability in your playing field. 13:22.58 David Anderson Yeah. 13:38.90 David Anderson Ah, yeah I love the? um actually I grew up in Chicago and so Wrigley field in Chicago if I got this right? if you if the ball sticks in the ivy wall. It's an automatic double I think like if the ball like sticks in I v as like you. 08:50.84 connor I wouldn't I would not be surprised if that that is the case. It's like a ground rule double or whatever they call it. Yeah. 14:18.82 David Anderson Yeah, you got it, You got to have house rules. But yeah, imagine a baseball stadium that's twice as large you can't you can't play the same game. 09:13.30 connor Now that's isn't that cricket I mean um, but I want to I want to say so I think it's it's interesting. The the vastly different experiences we had at Chi Che ah because of the knowledge and because of the training that we had so I went when I was very young. 16:55.94 archpodnet Um. 09:52.58 connor And I was just amazed. Everything was exciting. It was cool I was just there to be excited by archeology and enjoy it for what it was. You know? Maybe if that date was wrong or maybe something there was some different interpretation that was more popular about None piece or another you know that wasn't. Very important to me but it's like as we age and as we learn more and get basically too much information. We get to this point where we start asking these questions like you're asking Carlton where you're like I'm pretty sure I know that are like. You know it's this It's it's a really interesting experience and we are almost. We are almost ruining archeology for ourselves by doing that and taking that amazement and the wonder out of it. Um. 16:29.60 David Anderson Ah, yeah. 18:54.88 archpodnet Um, yeah I will say like I could definitely tell my tour I had an agenda. He knew a lot about the astronomy and how the alignments worked and like so that was his thing but someone asked a question about ritual sacrifice and he was like. No, no, no mines didn't practice warfare ritual sacrifice the worst they would do is they'd like steal it to King or queen and humiliate her and send her home and me and lan looked at each other like really is that is that what we're going with okay sweet and so I kind of at that moment. 17:21.30 David Anderson Right now I. 19:59.38 archpodnet I tuned out and I was just there to take pictures and and and do it and I was getting frustrated with Lana because she kept asking him questions and I was like can you just stop. She's like dude I just want to see what he comes up with so she was just asking a none things about the archeology just to hear like what his answer would be and like ah to his credit like he impeded. There was no part where' like I don't know that he would I mean like he would stop the group like let's talk about how they cut stones and be like they used to glue up sitting together on rope and like see saw it and I was like that's very interesting. You know like so he it was. It was an interesting experience but like he was a good tour guide. Everyone else who was there that wasn't an archeologist. 18:30.82 David Anderson Since. 18:41.98 David Anderson Oh. 21:14.66 archpodnet Like he had the charma and like he sold his story and everyone was like super. The only people that we talked to are like me and lana used the nicotine sticks and when we'd have our smokers groups. We'd like tell the guys smoking cigarettes like okay, let us tell you what this guy just said is a little erroneous and they're like what and that's when we'd have our little circles of like. 18:51.16 David Anderson Yeah. 19:24.44 David Anderson Um, yeah, you know is giving a good tour and telling a good story is you know, not always the same thing like I can say I don't know I can you know I can say that I don't know the answer to that question or I don't know how they did this or did that. 21:52.78 archpodnet Actually and like huh. Okay. 14:17.70 connor I. 19:57.98 David Anderson I don't know the purpose of you know, different buildings at a site but tour guide doesn't you know they're not going to get repeat customers. They're not going to get the kind of tips that they need to support their family and I think you know as I understand it the vast majority of tour guys. Do ah, a darn good job trying to present correct information. But if you get questions thrown at you every single day. You're going to say some silly things sometimes one of my one of my favorite actually I remember was at omall and I was overheard someone asked a question of their tour guide and the question was basically like how big is the site or how far does the site extend from here and the answer was like you see that building there. That's that's where the. Site stops and my my immediate response thought in my heading was like no, that's where your tour stops the site goes but it's like Twelve Square kilometers it's it's a big place but you know it's they have to live their lives and they have to to be able to you can't. I can't imagine this actually like I as a professor get to tell my story and ah you know I walk into the classroom and students occasionally ask questions I want them to ask more questions but usually they just sit there taking their notes. Ah that when you're a tour guide. You're constantly peppered with. Random questions and you know people want an answer and you need the best answer you can possibly get them because or they're going to walk out and not actually respond to in a good way and like chijin I know has a good certification program going on to try and make sure the guides are educated and know what they're talking about but lord. Lord knows I have probably said wrong things in the classroom before at some point or another and it's it's the nature of any talk any job where you talk constantly. You're going to say things that aren't correct sometimes. 25:42.96 archpodnet And yeah I've heard that same? Yeah yeah, and each of we do yeah revolutionary war episodes number 1 was probably the case study in like which we just kind of winged it. 18:05.28 connor I and that's ah, that's an asterisk was going to say that that's an asterisk for this whole podcast because you know 10010 of so it's later. Don't believe everything you hear on this podcast. We try hard. 26:22.26 archpodnet Um, but I have heard similar stories with like us River guides like those folks like I've heard stories like they'll just make things up because they don't know the geology of the entire River system and they have to answer people's questions you know and and kind of back to that point anytime you're in a position where you know like. 24:10.10 David Anderson Chef. 26:58.28 archpodnet You could be ah a a guide at manassa's battlefield right? And you're going to get 1000000 different questions a None different kinds of visitors like the dude didn't know that day that like 2 archeologists were going to be on his tour. You know you know and the same deal like I can imagine if you're a guide at Manassas you might get like a huge. 24:56.96 David Anderson Move. 27:33.78 archpodnet Civil war buff who like his thing is the first six months of the civil war in Northern Virginia and he's gonna know more than you and he's gonna ask you questions and you're just gonna be like I don't know what to tell you dude and just or just off the cough because you have to have that. Air of authority as a tour guide. You know it's part of the whole system. 25:43.82 David Anderson Um, yeah. 20:33.90 connor It's a it's a performance art too. I mean it's it's it's it is. You're on a stage and you're telling a story I kind of like watching people do that at certain because they have these steps they're like okay now I'm going to get to this stage this part of the the feet. Not not that it's theater but it's. This is the part of the performance. Why I point out this part over here and I think it's I I think those people are undervalued in in our society or at at least that by archaeologists in a large part because those are the people who are telling the stories directly more than we are I would say most of the time. So. 26:29.74 David Anderson Um. 21:40.78 connor I'll give them I'll give them that one. 26:55.10 David Anderson And I I had a minor experience of what it's like if you will because I was lucky enough to work at quch che for two weeks it was not my project I was sort of tagging along with some people I knew and I got to spend two weeks working Rafael Kobos and ah Jeff Braswell were directing some excavations in the heart of qicen on the great plaza there and so I spent two weeks helping excavate a building where we could see the castillo or the ku of Kton pyramid just behind us and the tourists are walking around us the whole time and we had our little yellow tape and whatnot. Ah, but and people would try to ask us questions pretty often and we got so I got classics. Yeah, you're going to get the questions like that. Are you know, classic to me anyway and I remember I had None person walk up and ask like what the connection between these pyramids and Egypt were. And I had somebody ask someone asked us if they could meditate on the other side of our yellow line and we're like yeah just stay on the other side of the yellow line and you can meditate. That's fine, but it's you know it's it's not just people asking archeological questions. It's people asking spiritual questions. It's people asking. And questions about conspiracy theories and that they're getting peppered with constantly. 31:42.46 archpodnet It fair enough. So what is what? what? What's some advice that you would give for an American tourist in ah the Yukian who's thinking about going taking one of these tours or visiting you know chichchiita. 29:49.28 David Anderson You know I ah absolutely like get a book because and and truly there are multiple opinions and so you know it's not that you're going to get a tour guide who's going to tell you a bunch of bunk. But you're a tour guide who tells you in different versions of similar stories like. Like the the ball court like I agree with your tour guide that ball court was probably not used for ball games very often I I think I have different reasons for making that statement than he did perhaps ah but you get different stories and you get different opinions and it's. I think my my students get tired of it but like I assign lots of reading because I want you to listen to somebody besides just me like listen to other people and read what other people think about these topics too and you will come away better for it and it's the thing you know it's It's hard like I know what I'm going into when I'm going to an archaeological site like I've already read about it I've already thought about it like I will never forget going to teo 2 icon in Central Mexico for the none time because I've lectured about it so many times and I finally got to go and it's like it looks different when you know so much about a site before you show up there. I think absolutely anybody you know there, it's ah it's hard sometimes actually the the Amazon and whatnot are bad for pulling back. Good Maya Archeology reference books and whatnot but still to this day I hold as my standard Robert Sher and loa traxler's the ancient Maya. Ah, there are other good books out there but and this show and traxler's book is getting a little older unfortunately. Ah ah Robert sheer passed away six seven years ago now and I'm not sure what's happening with the series. But there's the None edition. The ancient maya by Robert Shera and Lo Sher and loa traxler. It's huge. It's a tome. It's going to show up on your doorstep and it's like three inches thick and it's fabulous, but it's it's a great kind of book where it's like you. You can read a cover to cover if you want, but it's also really well broken down for you know, pouring through and getting bits and pieces as you're interested. And so you should be reading that stuff before you go is what I would say. 36:12.16 archpodnet I absolutely and I do have to make a callback to kind of the the beginning of my announcement the None class wherever I ever had a a professor disappointed in the class for not doing the reading was your chiefdo class or is just like 6 of us and no one came prepared and you were just like. 34:20.78 David Anderson But da da. 36:49.80 archpodnet This is a seminar like you need to read or else We can't like you're just like I don't have a powerpoint. We're here to discuss the readings as colleagues and none of you did the readings like very disappointed in us that day and I've I've I've thought about that a lot at times so I just wanted to thank you for getting that out. 34:56.82 David Anderson I. 37:27.28 archpodnet Having having me have that moment before I got to grad school like when I got to those at grad school is like always did the readings like I know how this goes so. 35:12.20 David Anderson Excellent. That's it's a seminar. It's like you want to talk about these things like that's the whole point like I'm on I'm an expert on some things but I'm not an expert on everything and even when I am an expert on something. There's still stuff I don't know and that's yeah. 30:00.98 connor Yeah. 35:44.56 David Anderson It's It's what's what's great. There are so many good sources and good books and good authors to read out there and you know, ah you should always look at ah alternative voices. You should always look at different perspectives and find out what's going on. 38:31.74 archpodnet Absolutely. 30:54.40 connor Were you I got the hard hitting question. Were you more disappointed in Carlton's Youtube video about chiefdoms or him not him not doing the ratings. Also. 36:26.22 David Anderson Ah, it's so it was the readings. The the video was fantastic where we got to the end of the semester and it was fantastic that actually like pedagogically that's that class is still the one I go back to I've. 31:29.32 connor Ah. 36:53.82 David Anderson I feel like it was my greatest success because at the beginning anmester I made them write an essay There was like every two weeks they had to write like a 3 page essay as we worked through and the first one was what is a chief them and I got like all all None students wrote me these like textbook answers like you all the textbook says this this and this and I got these like you know, very you know. With all due respect very boring papers. But that's what I expected at the end of the semester they are they I assigned them the same essay like what is a chiefdom and I got all of these answers that werere like I don't know and I'm like I've done my job. 40:24.66 archpodnet I just want to yeah I just want to say what is the chiefdom has 4970 views on Youtube yes, unfortunately it's it still pops up so all right. 32:46.84 connor Ah, ah, well thank you so much again. 38:13.18 David Anderson Yes. 40:52.50 archpodnet And I mean this this is a great segue I mean Dr Anderson you know what are a couple books articles or videos that you would recommend for anyone interested in in my archeology or archeology of of the Yucatan. 38:41.86 David Anderson Yeah, so like that that Robert Cher Loa traxler the ancient maya is the tome. You want the tome that is absolutely a great thing to turn to None of my favorite books actually is Cameron Jean Walker's book heritage or heresy. Ah, that is about the Maya Riviera which is you know it's basically Maya tourism and maya archaeology put together and she asks the hard questions and yeah, some people have critiqued the book. It's it's not a perfect answer because there are no perfect answers to these questions and in my opinion but like. How do we manage archeological sites in the presence of like hardcore beach tourism like it's a great discussion of those concepts to at least start thinking about there's also I have to feel like I have to to push because it's so good. There was a ah nova documentary that came out recently called ancient Maya Metropolis and I was not involved in the filming of this but ah, they let me like consult along the way and like there are hardcore experts in there but they were you know. It's nova they want to double check and make sure everything sounds good and whatnot and so I got to consult on the film as it was coming out and I see a lot of bad archeology on tv that's kind of my job as I watch a lot of bad archeology on tv when they set me the final cut of this documentary. It was fantastic and so I was really thrilled and it. Tells a great story about that. The late classic and sort of that rise of of militarism and warfare that we were talking about before and so definitely check it out. 36:25.40 connor Awesome! Ah, and where can I Our our listeners find you on social media. Um, that coin in that kind of world. 41:55.62 David Anderson I have got Dsa archeology cornered on Twitter that is where I am more off than not but I've got a Dsa archeology page on Facebook and Instagram I have not made the Tiktok plunge. But maybe one of these days I should go the next mile. 37:17.20 connor Yeah, awesome. Ah. 45:04.86 archpodnet no no no I was just typing in sorry all right back to it 3 whatever when we just interviewed Dr David S Anderson you can find him on Twitter and Instagram at Dsa Archeology not to be confused with the democratic socialists of America Archeology ah so please go check him out and follow him if you haven't already. 38:06.60 connor Ah yep, and you know it's time please rate the podcast provide us feedback talk to us call us names. Whatever you want. You know we're here for it. Um, we love interacting with you David would offer you a sticker at this time. Um, but I will not. I will not op for anything I will not guarantee guarantee anything like David he's too reckless with that. Um, maybe he? Yeah, maybe he'll be back to here one of these days. 46:30.82 archpodnet And no false provinces from us. 44:16.12 David Anderson If you come follow me on Twitter I'll give you a sticker I don't have any stickers but I'll find them. 46:53.88 archpodnet Excellent, well everyone with that we are out and if you made it past the post credits section. You know it is your favorite segment. It is time for Connor's witty dad joke. 39:17.22 connor And. 47:24.68 archpodnet So Connor what do you have for us this time and. 39:50.36 connor I want to give a shout out to taia farnsworth I stole this from her Instagram I can't remember what episode she was on but she's awesome. Um, and this is it's kind of relevant and it's going to be like kind of funny but just just bear with me. So. How does an astronomer cut his hair. He eclipses it. 48:14.42 archpodnet Oh God Damn it that was good because last night there was an eclipse. 40:49.48 connor And and and maya like their ah astronomy right? eclipses things like that and we just ended the upset because we had apocalypica. 48:38.94 archpodnet Yeah Apocalypto there is that solar eclipse. 48:55.48 archpodnet Time to go.