00:00.00 archpodnet And we're back. So Evan continue on this thread so where is what is the direction that chicheni says going as a world heritage site and as an archeological as a place of archaeological research and discovery. 00:11.63 Evan Well, ah, yeah, chichen is about to be transformed and I mean totally transformed and what form it's going to take the government has not told anyone and supposedly there is a master plan out there and little bits of it are escaping. But chichen is going to transform because there is this new tourism thing called the maya train and this is a train that will circumnavigate the Yucatan Peninsula it's currently under construction. So this will be a tourist train to kind like take people from Cancun to Merrida with a stop in chichen and then it'll go south campche ah take you all away to palenca and then cut across the southern part of the peninsula and take you back to the Maya Riviera Bakalla or somewhere around there and then back north to up to Cancun and that's not quite the route because there's there's places that they're going but None of the major stops that they're going to have is at chichen actually up a few kilometers from chichen but there'll be a direct road to to chichen itza. Um, that's going to bring as as many tourists that are there right now that's going to make it explode. It's going to go crazy and the government already knows this all right? So we have some concerns first of all, there's a concern for the for those who are doing archeology and perhaps you know. It's one of those weird things where there's a lot of money spent on archaeology at Chi Chin relatively speaking. Um and but it just seems to get all the resources that could also go to some of the other sites because there are thousands of archaeological sites in Yucatan you cannot swing a dead cat. Without hitting one on the plus side. There is some incredible archaeology going on right now and we're getting some answers to questions that quite frankly have puzzled archaeologists. Ah or to use. Ah David Anderson's favorite word. Baffled archaeologists for for almost a century. So some of the work that's being done For example I recently attended a a lecture by ah Vera Teasler who is down there and she's the one who actually looks at the. Skeletons skeletal remains of the sacrifice victims and performs. You know again, you guys are the experts. So I'll just tell you what the test does so by looking at the molars of the sacrifice victims you can tell where they were where they grew up. 05:44.23 Evan So one of the questions theoretically is if you look at the folks who ah were cast into the soot they sacrificed and then put into the sanote sagrato um or some of the other caches because there's several There's like a cache of something like 40 children that was found in a cave. And that's going to be released here pretty soon information about that. But if you look at the the victims. So maybe you can answer where the tol text came from for as an example. so so Vera Tesler's people looked at the molars to see where they came from and very few were local. But what region do you suppose? these people came from primarily the answer is yeah well Egypt. Well that'd be incredible that that that would explain a lot. No. They came from all over there was no one area. There's no one area all throughout mesoamerica. 07:15.72 archpodnet And Egypt. 07:35.11 Evan Ah, the victims came or or were deposited from there. So apparently that isn't going to tell us who the toltecs are but ah that answers a question right? which is it shows that chichen was cosmopolitan that you had people brought in from all over and either they came there of their own free. Will. Or maybe they came as prisoners or were captured in war or whatever Chi Chen was a center for people from all over there and I think that's an exciting find and the other things that are going on is there was some work recently in the temple of warriors which had been rebuilt by the carnegie. Institution back in the late 20 s and then it was turned over to Mexico in 1929 of the things chichen is famous for is these rather elaborate mosaic discs probably I don't know a foot and none across um with a ah turquoise obviously not from yucaton that had to be imported in and and there's well there's obsidi other oh are theyset there I think you know what there might be obsidian in that. But I think it's primarily turquoise. No i. 04:54.20 connor They're obsidian right? I just I just I'm just Jumpkin but. 09:53.32 archpodnet I. But it's not an Obsidian disc that they smooth down to a Yeah. Ah. 05:09.78 connor Okay, gotcha I look it through it. 10:03.99 Evan Ah, oh maybe that's what he meant. Okay so they they just found another one. Ah, which had been implanted into the temple of the wos and I believe it was up on the top is where they found it how they found it I don't know but Claudia Garcia ah who's an archeologist. There was participating. The other thing is is that chachan has these amazing women archeologists which to me is a pretty huge story and they've kind of talked about it a little bit but you see ah a large number of women are doing archeology there I mentioned this cash. Of an an osario of children's bodies that was recovered north of the sinote sograto and this was recovered back in the 1960 s so they're about ready to release their study on this. Um I was in Yucatan ten years ago and heard the women who were working on this project speak and so now finally they finish their work and I think that this is going to tell us something. There's a lot of work going on in a section of chichen called ah chiicchen viejo which is south not not open to tourists currently. Ah, they recently committed completed a massive study of the temple of initial series group found several burials and also discovered I think maybe you might have seen this in the news. This amazing. It's either an altar or it's a table or it's a tablet. But it has mexicanized figures on it versus Maya figures on it which are found elsewhere throughout chichen. But this would put it in chichen viejo which is you know considered by the maya section so to speak of chichen but that shows that the mexican influence extended throughout the city. Again, these are exciting finds and we're now learning that chichen was more complex but also we're learning about kind of connecting it to the history. The oral history that's existed in the area that's amazing. But now imagine that this site if you increase the number of people who are coming there say I don't know by fivefold. Right? So you have 2000000 now you got none coming and visiting and I don't know if those are the kind of figures that is just going to be nuts at chichen and you know how you're going to be able to do archeology because I think you have to expand some of the areas that the visitors are going to that might be there is some talk of sending them to chichen viejo and there's a. Lot of productive work still to be done down there. So I suspect that's going to interfere with archeology down there. The other thing is that you have issues with the vendors which you ran into Carlton in the you know selling ah chochkes. 15:33.25 Evan on the on the sides of the paths. Um, there's a long story which we don't have time for today. But how how they eventually how they ended up doing this and this is really the only site that I'm aware of where this is done where you literally have people walking in to the site. To the archaeological zone every day to set up tables. It's very well organized the heads of tourism will kind of call it a mafia that does this but these people have a line that goes back to the The people who originally worked at chichen during the Carnegie institution days. So this is kind of ah there's kind of this thread that works back that that far and they they had the right to sell chochkes at chichen and were chased out by the federal government. Ah, given new homes. Ah again, a very complex story but they invaded about twenty years ago and at that at that time Vincente Fox was the president and he was a man of the people he was not going to kick them out and they've been there and now when I first went there. It seemed to be that there were a lot of people who I didn't consider didn't seem local to me that were working in that. But today it looks like almost everybody is local to peace stay or one of the local communities around Chichen. So if you kick them out and that's the scuttlebutt. The scuttlebutt is they're going to kick them out. When the maya train comes in that's going to displace a lot of people who are right now have their economic. Ah you know the economy of their family rests upon what they sell at Chiat all right? So there is that the guide situation. We talked about that's got to get fixed and but but I will tell you. There is literally crickets from the mexican government about making changes with regards to the guides so we'll see what happens the bigger question of all is ownership of the property which brings us back to the original issue. So. Historically Edward Thompson owned chichen the mexican government seized it in one 26 in 45 the mexican supreme court ruled Thompson had broken no laws and so they returned the property to thompson's heirs Thompson's heirs at that time had struck a deal. With a tourism pioneer by the name of ah, get this Fernando Barbachano Peon who we talked about before this is the father of the man I became friends with and the deal was is that Fernando Barbachano Payon would bankroll the lawsuit to keep the property in the supreme court. 21:04.27 Evan And in exchange for that if he was successful. They would sell him chichen for 10000 usdollars when the case was adjudicated in Thompson's Favor Thompson by that time was dead the barbachano or the Thompson family sold chichen to the Barbachanos. And so and the Barbaanos used chichen in 1944 they were already there it with the Mayaland Resort many years later but now they had control of the entire property. Yeah, the Barbaannos Parlayed that into a tourism empire really built tourism in. Through the entire Yucatan Peninsula as a result. Um when I got to know Don Fernando Don Fernando talked a lot about what he did to protect the property and I think what's kind of interesting is barbachano peon his father. Is kind of the gentleman who created the idea of an archeological zone now he was doing this for self-serving purposes purposes because he didn't want the the land nationalized to be given as ahitos. This is a property that's given to the camposinos to the people who live in the villages. So they have a place to raise their milpa etc so there was some thread of that at Chichen. So he came up with this idea of a arche. Ah archeological quote archeological zone and it protected it. Okay in 2000 I think it was 14012 I forget the main archeological zone got sold to the state of Yucatan and that was the part that had been owned by Don Fernando Barbachano ah Gomez Rule my friend so the the barbaanno family sold it to the state of Yucatan because at that time there was the the federal government was talking about taking it by eminent domain expropriating it and that was causing no end of legal challenges the section that is chiche viejo to the south. Was sold a few years ago by Dona Carmen Barbachano egomez rule Don Fernando's sister she owned it. She sold that to the federal government to ena and for a rather insane amount of money. The none major parcel by the way, the family still keeps the hacienda chichen which was which she had the None parcel is the one that is the one that's in controversy right now that's where the myaland resort is and that goes a little bit south and then also to the east from. 26:13.47 Evan Ah, the main archeological zone that property is owned by Don Fernando Barbachano Herrera and he is the son of Don Fernando Barbacha gobez rule you can see that they like that name Fernando ah during covid ah he sold it. He got went into agreement and sold it to a developer. In on the Maya Riviera somebody who was famous for getting into a snit with Donald Trump over the miss universe pageant and that resulted in a massive lawsuit. This is a businessman who is he's. He fits in well in Cancun p playo Del Carmen so according to him and there's an argument over this property. There's a big fight in the courts right now over it but according to him Don Fernando agreed to sell the property. And but part of the agreement is that the permits would be getting would be ah obtained for a None unit hotel to replace the myaland resort now if you go on Google Maps you can see the myaland resort and it's 40 rooms. And it's None levels at its highest point. It's a very tasteful. It's got bungalows. It's very nice now imagine a hotel from Cancun put on the property overlooking chichen in the archaeological zone and nobody. 29:21.26 archpodnet And yeah, that's what I was expecting like when I saw those hotels I was like hu those are kind of humble I thought there was going to be like a huge resort like a golf course somewhere I thought it was gonna be like a big resort space when I had been driving up. 29:40.43 Evan It's going to be not for lack of trying that that doesn't exist but it will but it will exist and so what we're going to so what we're seeing right now is there's going to be massive development in the area. And you know the hope is you know it'll be like a little mini ah pla a Del Carmen or whatever I mean there's a plan to build a beach resort at Chichen. Um, so how do you build a beach resort inland well you build a beach and you build. Anyway, it's just nuts. It's absolutely not that that's the plan again. This is a plan that was released many many years ago and was because there was a the governor at the time talked about the Disney vacation of ah chiat. 30:58.50 archpodnet Ah, wait, they're gonna build a beach. 31:24.21 Evan So look chichen is going to change and you can't argue that it's going to bring jobs for a lot of people a lot of money to Mexico and ah and you know chichen was even from the beginning when Morley worked there. At that time Alfred Kidder was running the Carnegie and he said this is going to be a showpiece of tourism chichen was the reconstruction that they did and it proved to be absolutely correct. So ah so chiche as we know it is going to change I think that there are things that they can do. Ah, to make it a good positive change as much as one possibly can. But and again it's our country they can do what they want but it's going to make me sad if I see a 400 unit hotel overlooking the osaria or the carakol. The. So-called my ah observatory with the glass obidiia and right right? So so that's where we're going and it's all going to change and it's going to change very soon. 33:32.62 archpodnet It of City and disc. Yeah, so you don't burn your eyes out so you can track the sun. Yeah. 28:40.44 connor Um. 33:52.42 archpodnet I well if the podcast is still running a few years. Maybe we'll book one of those rooms and have you back on fly you out and we can record an episode from the from the roof overlooking everything and reflect on the past couple years of development over my ties and Pinna Collatas 29:31.13 connor Okay I 2 things if the podcast doesn't last that long. That's okay, if that if the if if the hotel doesn't get built. That's really really okay so this is a big caveat that if we are going to drink my ties and stuff like that. But. 34:40.15 Evan Right? You know we'll go over to the hossi and to chishen which is one of my favorite places on Earth and and everybody should stay overnight there. Um, it's it's still in the Barbachano family and it's still run and I adore that place. So let's have let's have a cocktail. 30:10.34 connor Know. 35:19.31 Evan On on the veranda and call it a day. 35:36.72 archpodnet It sounds good. Well on that note Evan it has been absolute pleasure having on the show. What are a couple sources this whose books articles videos that you would recommend for anyone interested in the history of q chin eata. 35:49.90 Evan So my my personal library is something like None volumes which touch on chichen and it's just too many. You know it's like picking children even though I didn't write them so but I did come up with 3 books that changed my life and really changed my perspective. And gave me a new insight so that I could write this book and you know the none one is obviously John Lloyd Stevens incidents of travel in Yucatan written in None or published in 1843. It's the book that introduced chichen to the to to to the world. Ah, Stevens went down there with Catherwood Frederick cathowood and with ah Samuel Cabot interestingly enough I happened to own a cane that was owned by Samuel Cabot it's in my office I should have had it here so I could show it to you but but ah, ah. You know he's ah he was a new england guy anyway, that book brought chiche to the world and beautiful illustrations a book that really explained to me that I wasn't crazy about some of the stuff I found when I was down there that actually ran contrary to what some of the archeologists were telling me even. A book by Paul Sullivan former dean at yale called unfinished conversations mayas and foreigners between the 2 wars I've gotten to know Paul Amazing guy I send any maya that I have I send to him and he helps me translate it because my maya is limited to. Gosh which means let's go and finally I have Walter Taylor's book or his treatise the study of archaeology which took all the work that the Carnegie did Carnegie institution and showed that it was almost a waste of time that's kind of my interpretation of it. But it shows that you can spend none of None on archeology and still not get the answers that you're looking for very groundbreaking and None of Walter Taylor's students Willie Folan who went on to campmpeche and do amazing work at Colla Mule was a good friend of mine. He just recently passed. Um, that's a lot that's a big loss and you know what can I add None more. Do we have time I hate this guy I hate him so I I hate this guy because he if if I could have written this book I would have written this book and this is actually the book I'm working on right now. 40:18.40 archpodnet What? yeah, absolutely Now What do you got? what's got what? that's got. 40:39.37 Evan But this guy does it so well. This is our trip evans he's not an archaeologist. He's he's a writer but he's a academic. It's called romancing the maya mexican antiquity in the american imagination 1820 to 1915. So if you don't get my book. Ah, which by the way is called ah, the man who owned a wonder of the world if you don't get my book get trip our trip evans because it's a delightful read and amazing absolutely amazing wished I'd written it. 41:49.32 archpodnet Absolutely and we will have um, all those titles in the episode description as well as both books that Evan has written for those that are interested in tonight's topic and if you're into you know, true crime and cape god. So ah, both those titles down below. Ah, for our listeners to follow up with. 37:29.38 connor Yeah, and where can people find um because this is a very social media driven world these days where can people find you on social media. 42:27.69 Evan I you know I'm I'm at at american egypt which actually was the original title for my book but it didn't test. Well go figure after I already had the Twitter handle. Thank you so at american none word and all I tweet about is chichen. Sorry no no outrage nothing just chichen 24 hours a day. Oh and I and I like ah David Anderson's tweets so that's about it. 38:45.72 connor Awesome! And so because this is a life in Ruins. We usually have to ask this really cheesy question and but and we always try to tailor it to our guests. So like if you were given the chance again would you still choose to study the history of the people who lived In. And owned ruins. 44:07.89 Evan None of the things I'm keenly interested in is indigenous history and the new project that I'm working on involves indigenous history throughout the United States specifically contacts between native americans and white settlers. That's a new project that unfortunately covid forced me to start because I couldn't get into any archives. So that's really my interest and I don't care if it's the maya I don't care if it's the Northern Piute from where I come from originally which is the state of Oregon um, I'm fascinated in those lives and in how those lives survive today. 45:49.58 archpodnet You excellent? Well everyone we just interviewed Evan Albright you can find him on Twitter at Americaney you'll find that handle in the episode description and please be sure to rate and review the podcast provide us with any feedback whichever podcasting platform you're using be listened to our show. If you rate and review the podcast and email us with a snapshot of your review we will send you a sticker. We're still waiting on more people we have like a bunch of reviews that we have stickers for so please reach out to us. And additionally if you're listening to our show on the all shows feed please consider subscribing and following the life and ruins podcast individually that helps us grow our show and obtain sponsors and procure advertisements to help keep our show running running um and with that we are out. Well everybody it is that favorite. It is your favorite time. We have gotten through the outro and it's ah time for Connor's witty dad joke. So Connor what do you have for me and Evan this evening. 42:56.22 connor Oh God Wait did I already do my deja vu joke. 48:02.68 archpodnet Thank you Tonor as always. It's a pleasure I look forward to this every week and with that. Ah and with that we are out. 47:52.53 Evan Um, oh thank you guys that was that was that was priceless. Ah, ah. 43:17.96 connor Um.