00:00.00 Paul_E Walnuts Welcome back to episode None of a life nuns podcast. We're here with Vincent Patista the man them at the legend himself I also here with Connor you guys know Conor I've already done these interviews butd he's here. Um, so. 00:09.67 archpodnet I Not not so mythical. Not so legendary you know I'm here. 00:37.74 Paul_E Walnuts Neanderthals did the war in Iraq like let's let's pick neanderthals but None um, but also question. Do you think I got 2 questions are neanderthals homo sapiens or are they homo neanderthal ensis and then two. Ah, what's the deal with. 00:24.25 Vince Battista Oh yeah. 01:15.80 Paul_E Walnuts Only having 1 string of Dna from neanderthals and then three was the sex consensual. 01:01.15 Vince Battista Ah, okay, let's do this again. So number one? Yeah they're homo sapiens like there's probably more neanderthal Dna walking around this planet now than there ever was in the past. Fact of matter is we not only mix with them. We mix with them every time you ran into them all the genetics points to the fact that first of all, not only have we mixed with them recursively but other human populations like Denise Evans have neanderthal ancestry at the population level. So when you find like Denny who is like the. Neanderthal the ni of and hybrid. They're not a hybrid because of' the same species one two the denise of an ancestry contained neanderthal ancestry and the neanderthal ancestry I'm pretty sure also contained Denise of ancestry so it was like mixed on both sides. So essentially what you're saying is like. If somebody from like western is eurasia and central is eurasia mix with one another That's what Den Denny that Denise it is so yeah, we they're the same species. We're the same species. We even find their ancestry in Africa there are neanderthal african components neandatthal ancestry components in Africa. 03:24.50 Paul_E Walnuts Okay. 03:24.51 Vince Battista And for a long time. We were like oh this is because of like gene flow within the last couple of years which is like a good hypothesis right? But like they look at these appleot typespe and the Apple types are way too old to be recent and to around all of this. So like there's new unflow ancestry in Africa. Um. 04:00.56 Paul_E Walnuts Ah. 03:59.55 Vince Battista The same Species. You know if we if we adopted the position that we were the same and then used that as the null hypothesis We wouldn't even have to have this conversation but because we come from the position that human populations are different. We have to find evidence support. That we're different and that's not the case like we are different skeletalally like neanderthals from like like the lafaa C Neandertal. That's your idea of like stereotype neanderthal. Of course they don't look the same as anybody else. The dude was like an old guy with like. Bone Degeneration. He's missing teethed course it didn't look like it. It's like if you took your grandfather your great grandfather right? You like took a cat scan of a skull and took a cat Scan of ah of a messai person and you're like oh yeah, they're different different species like no, no, not at all dude. 06:03.36 Paul_E Walnuts Now. Yeah. 05:48.81 Vince Battista Like it. You know like my whole thing is like because you cannot divorce anthropology from a a a colonial imperial past we have to do so much work to like None make sure that our research isn't like co-opted by white supremacists but 2 like we have to undo all the trash that happened in the past two hundred years do you mean like it's like so much more work and then you have like very well-respected established archaeologists like and geneticists who like publish stuff and I'm like oh my god how do you have a job dude. 06:50.90 Paul_E Walnuts As the gull. 07:03.51 Vince Battista Um, you have a job. How do you have a job know 1 geneticist who is like you know apparently thinks everybody everybody thinks this guy where he walks like tulips emerge from the earth or something like guys like you know, whatever. 07:48.60 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah, yeah. 07:34.30 Vince Battista Did a paper in like the the author in question was like oh it seems that like what we're showing is that like people who live in a place they don't necessarily have ancestry from that place and they were talking about like beaker culture migrations into england right. And they're like as we can see this bell beaker like we see like a huge genomic replacement right? and like so like you see this huge amount of ancestry coming in from continental europe into the Uk and they're like oh it's a replacement It's like no no, no, it's not a replacement. It's ad mixture. 08:56.56 Paul_E Walnuts Um, say. 08:49.29 Vince Battista Have people who have a different subsistence method different lifestyle. There was probably you know 90 of these agriculture lists for every 10 of these like mesolithic people. Maybe it's not a surprise that 90% of their ancestry is from continental europe with these Ag Agro pastsoralists and like 10 percent is local ancestry. Like people don't wait these papers by population size or anything like that. So like when you look at neanderthal ancestry like if somebody has like you know a fraction of neanderthal ancestry like oh. Yeah, there was probably like None or 3 neanderthals for every hundred africans so like maybe it's not a huge surprise that there's not that much neanderthal ancestry at any point you know at any population. But so like ah I can go on about this for hours. But that's number None same species. What was number None 10:47.14 Paul_E Walnuts Cool, um, so like ah I talked about this on Tiktok. There's the idea that it's either only female neanderthal genetics are what passed or that they were the only ones that were viable or it was only the males that were viable. 10:30.81 Vince Battista Good. State of. 10:59.39 Vince Battista Um, yeah, so the f so yeah, so they're like oh because there's no neanderthal Mitochondria like no female matcher lines from neanderthals I survived fine. 11:26.16 Paul_E Walnuts Ah, can't recall and there's the mule thing. 11:32.59 Vince Battista The the problem with using u parentally inherited markuses is they don't mix right? like your mitochondrial haplog groupup is your mitochondrial habitlic group from your mom and that's going to go on forever. Your whole genome is what mixes right? So these like you have these chromosomes and they you know. The thing. So um, that was one of the reasons why like when the None ancient Dna Apis came out people were like there's no genetic evidence for neanderthal ancestry living humans. It's like yeah because you looked at the mitochondria and those don't mix right? So like there could be some possible like. Biological incompatibilities like with the pelvis as some people have thought whatever but chances are it's probably just that there's really strong selection on mitochondria like there are other you know there are non-human species where you have like admixture and you have like None of the mitochondrial haplog groups completely like. Going under selection like completely replacing all the other might ah like. For example, there's like Lake Lake troer something like that. Um these fish have like these arctic charges like a really really different species that they sometimes cyberize what they have. Complete replacement some of these populations these lakes in like remote Northern Canada and like Mitochondria are super important like that's the powerhouse of the cell man like how can you survive right? like imagine trying to imagine if you have a 4 f none and you swap it out with like an like an I four engine. 14:40.80 Paul_E Walnuts Kit. 14:35.93 Vince Battista Like that's not going to last that long man from like a little sedan right? I mean like maybe if it was like a super engine or something cool like that. But like you know. 15:02.58 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah, right. 15:19.38 Paul_E Walnuts I Never thought about this till right now but like with the new world dogs being completely replaced by ah Western You know European dogs coming over. 15:11.57 Vince Battista Yeah I doubt they ever work in being placed. It's like the it's detection limits. It's all about detection limits. Ah. 15:49.30 Paul_E Walnuts Okay, um, so you think there is still a little bit of Dna there like in some dogs. Ah. 15:34.71 Vince Battista Well here's a problem. So like you look at like asian dogs right? like the asian dog paleo like oh ancient dogs from Asia right? like that. There's probably multiple dog domestication events in Asia and all this other stuff but like. 16:24.66 Paul_E Walnuts Right. 16:07.91 Vince Battista Dogs are so closely related to one another. It's really really tough to do that at the whole I Really think it might just be because you know well at the same time like it could very well be the case that like dogs you know because of disease or something like that. Maybe they were replaced who knows man but um. It's probably the case that they just mixed in their selection. But. 17:18.44 Paul_E Walnuts Okay, because where I was going with that is like if people don't understand like how neanderthal like you're still part neanderthal you know with 2% you know, whatever like it's the same thing. Those dogs were dogs and they had sex with american dogs and like now that's just more european dna than it is m or in d in Dna. 17:21.33 Vince Battista Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean like look how many look how many like like Cholos and like chihuahuas and all those those are those are the american dogs like what do we want to admit or not. 17:57.54 Paul_E Walnuts So it's the same thing with humans and neanderthals at least to my summation right now. 18:19.82 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah. 17:59.51 Vince Battista There's huge amounts of gene flow. But they're native american dogs like um, what's interesting to me though is in Chile in Argentina it looks like they possibly also domesticated foxes. So. 18:42.92 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah Raven Garvey was trying to get me work with that. Yeah, ah is that a good bad face are. 18:36.51 Vince Battista Oh Raven's brilliant man Raven's brilliant I would have just been such a cool project. No because they did it. There was a taxidermy project where somebody found like 1 of these taxidermy like fuagian dogs and they see with mit a genome of it and they're like do this things of Fox. 18:55.69 archpodnet It's a face. 19:27.80 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah. Oh damn because yeah, it's like I get people ask of it like people always comment about the foygen dogs and stuff on my Instagram like hey do a thing on it I'm like I would love to but I want to actually go see one first. Um, and. 19:16.43 Vince Battista Like it's a Fox bro. 19:39.71 Vince Battista Ah, yeah, yeah, it's you know tierdo fugg so I did I My original Ph D project was supposed to be tierdo fugo and the muggy is and going down there man. Ah well I wanted to do cold climate adaptation down there but it was just like. 20:24.96 Paul_E Walnuts Do I what. 20:17.67 Vince Battista Political Instability funding different field seasons like it was really tough and then also yeah I think there's something to be said about letting communities come to you. 20:55.28 Paul_E Walnuts Oh right. 20:49.49 Vince Battista Sort of deal like I didn't like that it takes a lot of rapport building to do it properly and um. 21:15.97 archpodnet Especially when you're doing like biological stuff where you're actually like measuring them their their persons and you know Also you should be respectful of their heritage too. But if you're measuring their physical persons like you have to be you have to be an uncertain level where you're like okay we're cool I can measure you this is. 21:05.75 Vince Battista yeah yeah yeah I design yeah yeah yeah I mean I think I was just going to do like a Snp chip. 21:51.39 archpodnet This is cool. 21:43.99 Vince Battista But like at the same time like for good reason there's a healthy distrust of biological anthropology but like anthropology was the scientific arm arm of colonialism. We need. That's something we need to address hundred percent like um, like here's an example. 22:26.32 Paul_E Walnuts A. 22:19.63 Vince Battista Was photographing some craia for like ah like a side project and I was working with skulls from Southern Italy and like these are my ancestors right? They're like from a mile away from my father's born pick them up and a bunch of fava beans fall out of their head. Um, like um, why are these people measuring endocreium volume. Oh they're trying to tell us why we're racially like bad and like not smart. They're doing. They're trying to tell us you're gonna compare size of our brains. The size of brains of people in Northern Europe aren't they in Lo and behold. That's exactly what they did so like. 23:42.11 archpodnet O. 23:51.86 Paul_E Walnuts Again. 23:37.27 Vince Battista And like that's like a lower like you know like I whatever like that's that now now amplify that dis comfort by None and be like okay anthropologists took your family away right? like you can't do that I refuse to do that and like yeah. You I think part of learning how to be a good scientist is learning how to develop a healthy culturally and ethically sustainable research ethic or research like approach and like not a lot of people do this is um, you guys have you guys spoken to Kalu Fox at all. 25:12.28 Paul_E Walnuts Ah. 24:53.89 Vince Battista He's my buddy. He's a professor at u Csd he's um, he's native wine Conca Mali he's like a killer scientist exceptional scientist like one of the best geneticists I've met and um, the guy can the guy you should have him on. He's great. He's like a geneticist geneticist. 25:46.84 Paul_E Walnuts Okay. 25:27.73 Vince Battista Also was trained as an archeologist too I pretty sure he went to Maryland for his own undergrad or something like that. But um I will yeah no like he and I you know he was like having him sort of was like a side mentor was really important because like you know I approached him with these problems I'm like dude like I can't I don't feel comfortable. 25:58.74 Paul_E Walnuts Send us his digits. 26:01.45 Vince Battista He's like then don't do it dude like use your intuition if you don't feel comfortable doing something. Don't do it like you know why? you don't feel comfortable. Don't do it like not everybody has that the amount of people I know who are like pressured into doing projects that they're not comfortable with is too damn high. So that's that. 26:59.64 Paul_E Walnuts That gets back into that whole ah academia being toxic kind of thing. 26:50.13 archpodnet Yeah. 26:44.70 Vince Battista Oh yeah, for sure. Anyways, yeah so neonth adults and then well I know number 3 you asked if that was consensual probably was dude. Problem was imagine seeing somebody who's like ah I don't know who was it. Ah. 27:01.13 archpodnet On many on many friends. 27:23.75 Vince Battista Ah God was yeah God That's that. 27:50.22 Paul_E Walnuts Marjo Taylor Greene yeah it was bad set it that out. 27:40.23 Vince Battista Ah, hold on I'm gonna you're gonna appreciate this me. 28:11.40 Paul_E Walnuts Sure and I have a a filler why like are a resolution to the consensual joke when we when we're done with this. 28:03.59 Vince Battista Um, oh it was Henry Henry Wright came up to me and was like um I have a hypothesis for why red hair exists and I was like let's hear it. He's like well it started when man went to Europe from Africa and a man saw a redheaded neanderthal and said wow. That's a rap sheet that was it no I don't think I don't think those I don't I don't really know man that's like you. The good thing about science is that you have to prove stuff. You know. 29:15.12 Paul_E Walnuts Isn't that actually the genetic case. 29:35.56 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah, because I'd heard that red hair is a neanderthal remnant trait but I don't know if that's true or not. 29:21.93 Vince Battista It probably here's the thing about new yorkels man neanderthals lived from North Africa to England to Siberia for probably twice as long as we homo sapiens have been alive. Okay. 30:04.94 Paul_E Walnuts Ah. 30:00.81 Vince Battista Um, the big thing about neanderthals is we like have them fixed at 1 point in time like and like in that to me is like a form of of racism like we have them fixed in their ability fixed in their capacity fixed in their behavior fixed in their appearance. 30:33.98 Paul_E Walnuts Sure. 30:36.90 Vince Battista And like that's racist right? there sure enough like there's no other like that like if you did that if you applied that to any other human population today we would recognize it for what it is and that's racism right? Yeah so like that is one. 31:10.50 Paul_E Walnuts Oh my God I'm on fucking notice I never thought about that. 31:13.35 Vince Battista So like I had a colleague who was like neanderthals didn't do that and I was like which the which neanderals like I'll shoot and then you know this colleague was like sure. Yeah, okay, well we're different species than them I'm like well what do you mean? we're different species than them and this person was like oh. Like you know we didn't mix with them like yo we mixed with them very extensively and the person was like oh well like we have different ecology and then like what do you mean? we? What do you mean? Ecology. What do you mean by their ecology. You tell me that somebody from siberia has the same ecology as somebody from Mount Carmel in Israel. 32:41.40 Paul_E Walnuts Dan. 32:31.90 Vince Battista Or from like England or from iberia no no and then on on top of it on top of it like people are now here's 1 thing that's weird is like we now know that like neanderthals like any other human group. 33:04.20 Paul_E Walnuts Nah. 33:05.23 Vince Battista Had variation genetically you know that they ate different things depending on where they live. You know they look different depending on where they live and um, this is like like blowing people's minds This is blowing their mind and like in the same people who have their mind blown by that have their mind blown by the fact that like. 33:47.72 Paul_E Walnuts Um, yeah. 33:40.45 Vince Battista Mesolithic humans in Europe had dark skin be like ah the. 34:09.00 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah. 33:54.98 Vince Battista Were but ah, it's like dude take a chi them bro like chill man. 34:25.67 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah, ah. 34:21.93 archpodnet It's that it's that crazy history of like neanderthals where we just we We we put them as this caricature and then we never took them out of that box and we refuse to take them out of that box. 34:25.23 Vince Battista Dude. So if you dude if you went to the neander valley like forty thousand years ago and you starring one of these guys and you asked him how we identified he or she yeah, he'd say jarring David now he'd be like he'd be like he'd probably say something along the lines of like I'm one of the people. 35:09.16 Paul_E Walnuts He'd say Johnny Damon ah sure 35:00.10 Vince Battista Right? And then you could find a person that we would call on neanderthal from the opposite side of the range that point in time and you put them face to face it needs to be like he's not one of the people he doesn't speak same language as me, he smells Phony He eats different food than me. He has different body adornments than me. 35:58.32 Paul_E Walnuts He likes turtles. 35:39.90 Vince Battista Why are you you like turtles right? So like ah so like we like neanderthals in some regards are a social construct. So so what deniseovans we didn't know what deniseovans are like we probably have deniseo a like Crania sitting on shelves and we're calling them like chinese homo erectus or something like that. So like. 36:33.92 Paul_E Walnuts Sure. 36:15.79 Vince Battista We just like apply these things and like expect everybody to jump on board but like critically like if we if we take a step back if we there's a paper written by um, by Sheila Ara I don't know how to pronounce her last name. But she did she did a paper um with a co-author talking about um human evolution like viewed from outside a eurocentric sphere and accury was the other author this paper was one of the. 37:47.78 Paul_E Walnuts Um, that sounds like a really fascinating read. 37:30.91 Vince Battista It is one of the best papers I've ever read and they're like not only is like like the papers like listen to authors in China like you can't just write off everything that chinese authors are saying because you think that's nationalism because what you're doing is also nationalism but like. Like take into consideration. The fact that like these people are identifying the fact there are morphological traits in humans in China Two hundred thousand years ago that you find in humans in China today. That's not them saying the chinese nation has been here for 200000 years this is saying there's regional continuity. 38:48.32 Paul_E Walnuts Brett. 38:42.10 Vince Battista And that's okay, that's okay, like just get over it. That's the big problem. 39:12.34 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah, okay, that's fascinating. Dude we got to wrap up here. Um, but I just want to qualify before I get arrested when I said it wasn't consensual I was more asking. Um, like I think you and I had this talk when I helped you had me Help. You helped me with the neanderthal post that I did and it's more likely because I get so many comments saying that we would have just fought each other or like beat the shit out of each other and like it's probably more the case of just like like you're saying like they just looked like a person and they were like let's bang because like they were trying to trade stone or trade to. 39:55.83 Vince Battista I Didn't say that too I. 40:14.43 archpodnet Ah. 40:27.20 Paul_E Walnuts But well you know like it's It's more likely that you're going to interact positively with a new group of humans than you would negatively I think it. 40:17.85 Vince Battista Um, who knows who know maybe not but like it doesn't necessarily so there's literally 0 evidence for physical violence between neals. Some people that the amount of evidence is zero. It's an assumption and I think part of it as you see these like uncut. 40:56.90 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah. 40:52.63 Vince Battista Uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and all that other stuff which is like a whole different thing to unpackage because like they have like they weren't Nike's dude like they're not in contact they're un contacted by white people dude like they're un contacted by Oxford they're not un contacted right right? So like. 41:31.88 Paul_E Walnuts You got machetes? Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. 41:41.63 archpodnet Yeah. 41:31.91 Vince Battista Like yeah like like yeah the like I'll take I'll take a step back. So my dog anatolian shepherd right? These dogs been around for for thousands of years and they're bred to protect livestock against predation. 42:01.76 Paul_E Walnuts Um, yeah. 42:05.13 Vince Battista And so there's this. There's this misconception that these dogs like go seek out wolves and kill them. It's not what they do when they see a wolf or a coyote this happened with my dog. There's coyo in coyote in the neighborhood last year man my dog bluff charged him. Okay, he made himself look big. 42:50.42 Paul_E Walnuts He told me this yeah. 42:41.51 Vince Battista Like yo why you though get my neighborhood. Okay, he popped himself up put his hackles up barked in like it was like get out of here right? and that was it. That's all he had to do it was a nonviolent encounter and that's what they're bred to do. They're bred to like minimize risk and like get rid of a threat. That's probably not dissimilar from what humans did forty thousand years ago was like yo if you're not here like to trade or whatever get out of here dude and that was probably the majority of the interaction that was probably it probably took 30 seconds they go home like yo grog. You're not gonna believe what I just saw. 43:56.57 archpodnet She. 43:52.37 Vince Battista This dude was like 6 3 in like beautiful he had osti and let me tell you he was just wearing stuff like all over he had like red and like yellow. It was cool anyways I told him to run away in. 44:23.94 Paul_E Walnuts Um. 44:27.17 Vince Battista They won't for a little bit. Okay, but that's. 44:52.20 Paul_E Walnuts Yeah, like. 44:44.61 archpodnet Awesome! Thank you so much vincent for having ah coming on. Do you have any social media or Twitter you want to plug for people to follow you. 44:47.15 Vince Battista Yeah, you can follow me at ah at spaghetti westerns with a Z because you know I'm predictable. 45:28.60 Paul_E Walnuts And you started off the episode with the can of ah and what was it? What was the name of the beer something gold x Steve Gold 45:12.59 Vince Battista Yeah, name of the beer is ecstasy of gold from Widowmaker Brewry here in Quincy mass right down the street and other on Brainsree bring you that? sorry yeah, but ah, it's great. 45:53.42 Paul_E Walnuts Nice in addition to breweries. Do you have any ah citations or books or papers that you would recommend people read. 45:49.15 Vince Battista Know of mine or other people's um, no, not neanderthals, but you need to read braiding sweetgrass by Robin Wal kimerer and you need to read dark eating you by Bruce Pascoe 46:22.96 Paul_E Walnuts Just like to get into neanderthals or you know genomics or italy. 46:30.51 archpodnet So free. 46:26.71 Vince Battista And then we can talk about this critically. 46:54.64 Paul_E Walnuts Okay, man I got to think of a skit now where he's like yo I got a good flint guy. It's just. 46:41.69 Vince Battista Look look. You know we tend to care more about the half than the flint we got plenty of flints but a nice half the little bit of bitumen. You need that a aerobic environment. Oh my mom mi That's great stuff. 47:34.62 Paul_E Walnuts My cousin mikey using this at little these guys over here. They've been using the fricking Bo it. Yeah ah yet. 47:18.53 Vince Battista All Ah I asked can I ask you arche I Know you're probably gonna cut this off I have an archaeology question for you guys? Yeah balance. 47:44.95 archpodnet Can we We do that right? after? yeah, okay, cool. Thank you so much for coming on. Ah yeah, we just interviewed its patista. You can find him at the things and the thing rate review the podcast will give you things. Um. 48:26.14 Paul_E Walnuts Um, yeah, rate the podcast. 48:22.70 archpodnet And with that we are out. 48:10.11 Vince Battista Peace. 48:32.11 archpodnet All right since Carlton's not here to introduce this this is shitty joke time. Ah, let's see so I I heard this recently. Ah, there's a guy going around at the moment like dipping his testicles and glitter. It's pretty nuts. 49:14.88 Paul_E Walnuts Wow. But. 49:05.39 Vince Battista Um, wow that's like a kesha concert in 1 joke right? there. 49:22.45 archpodnet I. 49:42.76 Paul_E Walnuts That's that's that's a good reference all right on that note guys we're out Maybe I'll be here next week. Maybe I won't buy. 49:37.47 archpodnet Ah. 49:23.11 Vince Battista See.