00:00.98 archpodnet Welcome to episode 1 26 of a life and ruins podcast where we investigate the careers of those living a life in ruins I am your co cohost Conor John and and I'm joined by my other co-host David Ian how ah he's really excited to be here. 00:12.30 Jesus of Nayarit Mess up. 00:18.37 archpodnet Um. 00:20.34 Jesus of Nayarit What are your guys' thoughts on the um, the late Queen and the extant colonialism in which we live in. 00:25.50 Shane O O That's the true one. 00:28.10 archpodnet Before we get to that and introduce our guests which are Dr Shane Merrill I'm gonna introduce our guest name and it's Dr. Shane Miller he was on episode 21 thirty seven and seventy six and episode 98 00:30.90 Jesus of Nayarit I. 00:47.50 archpodnet And we also have Dr Jesse Tune who is on episode thirty seven fifty and also 76 ah yeah 00:53.00 Shane So is this the 5 number 5 for me all right. 00:59.16 Jesus of Nayarit Timers's club. Do wish she get you a toxy Era a bathrobe. 01:02.83 Shane Man I would wear that Bathrobe I'd wear it I teach in it. 01:08.72 archpodnet Can you buy. 01:10.69 Jesse Um, like swany teing in a robe. 01:12.49 Shane Yeah I'll just be ah, just giving the people what they want man just like they they all know you guys now like all of our majors know you guys so like it would be like a total I Guess Flex. As the youth would say yeah. 01:29.63 Jesse Someone asked me about Surudi the other day and I just sent him a link to the episode about saruti. 01:29.86 Jesus of Nayarit It's concerning. But yeah. Perfect. 01:39.37 archpodnet Yeah, that one in white sands got like a ton of listens on all platforms and whatnot. So yeah, thank you guys for for coming back? Um, what have you guys been up to since episode 76 and episode 98 01:55.34 Shane Well, we we have an edited volume that came out with Ashley Smallwood so it is a monstrous tome of a volume that's all things southeastern archeology and ice age archeology. So it is. 01:57.19 Jesse Fishing. 02:14.71 Shane Called american wait but what was the neighborhood of Jesse been a dick. 02:15.44 Jesse Here if. 02:20.38 Jesus of Nayarit Um. 02:21.75 Jesse Um, and the American Southeast at the end of the ice age. Yeah. 02:25.71 Jesus of Nayarit She. 02:27.10 Shane Yeah, in last I yeah um, if you email us we have a discount code that you could use if you're interested in the such thing. So if you're like if you do crm and need to write like backgrounds for specific states or if you want to like a. Have an overview of radiocarbon dates. We got an overview of paleobotany fauna southeast ah the crown jewel of southeastern paleo is dust cave. We got Sarah Sherwood to write a chapter about dust cave kind of like ah the latest and greatest overview of that site. Um, yeah, so I mean we tried to be cover as many um bases as we could in this thing and it's been. Ah, it's been an odyssey an edited volume is of that size. It took me Ashley and Jesse. Probably many many days of trying to keep at least one of us from blowing a gasket and having a full shernobyl meltdown. Um, so but we got it out. We got it out. 03:33.40 Jesse 531 pages and forty five forty seven different contributors. 03:39.15 Shane Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I mean it's like you know one of those things where it's Luckily if you've run archeological excavations like that same skill set also gives you something of like the skillset for. 03:39.45 archpodnet So wild. That's a lot to corral. 03:57.18 Shane Herding cats for an edited volume. 03:58.70 Jesus of Nayarit And. 03:59.67 archpodnet It it does say online that it's the first edition is there is there a thought that there's going to be a second edition at some point. 04:12.58 Shane Yeah, it's gonna have to be tune at all exceptr not Miller and if we do that? Yeah um, um, ah yeah, no yeah, no no no I don't I don't think so. 04:19.81 Jesse Ah, bridges to cross miles down the road. 04:25.60 Jesus of Nayarit I I. 04:28.49 Shane This was like ah this was an update to a book that Dave Anderson and Kens Assman put out in 96 that we all read as grad students. It's like on the on every southeastern archeologists bookshelf and so it's you know. 04:45.46 Jesus of Nayarit The parallel and early archaic Southeast but he's actually gonna be on next week I shouldn't do that. But um, he might he might listen. 04:46.42 Shane Yeah, yeah, like yeah, you could man gave Dave Anderson would be proud that you did the spock hands or just then and. 04:57.47 Jesus of Nayarit The man waves to you with Spock hands it i. 05:01.25 Jesse Every time. 05:02.10 Shane Like he does that everywhere. Do you think he gives a shit like if you if you think that this is part of his persona Now he embraces it. 05:09.72 Jesus of Nayarit He's a legend dude. Um 1 thing I I wanted to preface like while you guys are talking about your book. Um, that might sound really boring to like the casual listener who's into pyramids. Um, but like the early archaic transition like from the pleiststein to the holocene in. 05:21.32 Jesse Um, kind of. 05:26.76 Jesus of Nayarit Um, like the southeast United States is actually a really fascinating spot in the world. Um, and I think your book kind of talks about that right? or is it just specifically ice age this time. 05:38.22 Shane Now we get in the early Holocene Iss basically how we get if you do the periods in the southea's paleating earlier kick is's kind of what we cover for folks. So not only yeah, what happens when you come out of that. So um. Yeah I think it's really interesting. But then again, this is my little corner of academia and I'm neck deep in the argument. So ah I think it's the coolest stuff in the world. But that's just me. 06:03.51 Jesse Well there's so much it's changing right? We get different Lithic Technologies and food ways and adaptations different land use strategies and then the environment starts changing just as people start getting accustomed to. What's going on and they're constantly adapting and readapting and so it's a great case study for just the southeast is a great case study for how adaptive humans are really. 06:35.30 Shane I mean like if you're on the coast sea level rise is coming up ridiculously fast. So all the cold like we got a chapter that's just on underwater archeology in the chapter on Florida and Tico talks a lot about like how these. 06:35.47 Jesus of Nayarit Um, yeah. 06:39.40 Jesse Yeah. 06:50.25 Shane Like what would have been what would have happened with sea level Rise Um, that would have been like the the time when it was coming out really fast. Ah, just as an example. So um, yeah I don't know I mean I could I could talk about this stuff for days. 07:03.60 Jesus of Nayarit Um, yeah, um. 07:07.56 archpodnet Well, yeah, um, we'll we'll we'll put a link ah where you can buy the book and like they said if you email them they will give you discount code because they want to make money but they're also not out to bankrupt everyone in and the world. Um, but. So we on that somber note ah we did wanted to have you guys back because we have ah we have ongoing group text that usually brings up a variety of different things, topics, etc. And. 07:27.95 Jesse Um, beginning. 07:41.16 archpodnet We had floated some papers back and forth. We always. We always want to have you guys on because you're fun duo to kind of deconstruct papers and ah make us laugh etc. Ah, and 1 of the papers that we have kind of passed around was this. Lsu mounds paper which is this. It's it's kind of a big. 08:03.33 Jesus of Nayarit With Bullshit Just let's just call it what it is. 08:11.21 archpodnet Yeah, it's ah it's a big claim. It's basically pushing back mound building in North America like six seven thousand years or so um and. 08:25.87 archpodnet I think to start off can we can you guys like at least like give like an intro to like what mound building is and when we kind of find it in North america or even specifically in the southeast because that's where we're usually seeing these kind of mountain building cultures right. 08:40.80 Shane Yeah, you want me? Do you want to do it. Justie. 08:46.57 Jesse Ah, you take this one. You're more proximal to that. 08:50.69 Shane So um, eastern north america is kind of precocious when it comes a mound building. Um, it happens here earlier than about anywhere else in the Americas so like the hottest the hot spots for this is the lower Mississippi River Valley so um if you are into mounds in the history of mound building culture I think it's probably smart plug like Meg Casabaum she's written. She's got an overview paper on this I think she has a book that's out or it's about to come out. Um where she talks about mound building in the Americas um. And like the like the probably the most famous one that everybody knows of that's like an early mound building site is poverty point so poverty points a Unesco world heritage site. Swear to god whenever you look at it from above and you compare it to the pictures of burning man. They look very very similar. There's different arguments that are kind of similar like this isn't hunter gatherer or burning man where people come from all over bringing stuff interact and then disappear. 09:46.50 Jesse But. 09:55.50 Shane There's some counterarguments that that might not be the case and it's all local nevertheless like it's a cool enough site. It's monumental architecture. It's built by hunter gatherers and then there's a set of mounds that are even earlier than that and so. Whenever I teach intro to archeology I usually say Watson break is this site Northeastern Louisiana it's like a set of mounds. Um I usually say that's that's the earliest mounds in the Americas and it's just over 5000 years old and so these folks are hunter gatherers. There are there. There are still a ways from. Um, developing domesticated plants. Um those domesticated plants like they don't really show up down there. It's more of a mid -south midcontin thing. So these folks are hunter gatherers and they're building mos so it's interesting and it's like this earliest thing. And so here we are again. It's like how early how far back can we push the envelope now. So there's always feels like there's always somebody out there pushing pushing the earliest mounds back just like pushing the earliest people back. So there's there's similarities and and the arguments here. Do I need a safe house. 11:12.66 Jesus of Nayarit And like I guess for for context to like go go Beckley Tepe things how you say it was originally like kind of thought to be it couldn't have been hunter gatherers or whatever I don't even but know that that's true I think people always thought it was um and it's like pre the time. Those kind of structures should be around kind of thing. But then again, they just built structures there at that time. Absolutely. 11:34.70 Shane Um, can we have a sidebar about go back to that be can. We have like a sidebar so I was in a dive bar in Florida I was just like have my notebook right in a way. Yeah. 11:45.32 Jesus of Nayarit Here we go. 11:45.56 archpodnet Right? The best way to start a story The best way to start a story. 11:47.71 Jesse Um. 11:51.60 Shane The happiest boy in the world getting to spend labor day ah hanging out with my little brother with his his girlfriend having a good time and I had an afternoon to myself and so I'm like I'm going to go to this dive bar and ah I'll be damned if I didn't sit there and have this guy start talking at me. 11:59.94 Jesus of Nayarit Let the pink Lagoon Croc flamingo. 12:10.60 Shane And whenever anybody says ah you tell people you're an archaeologist and you're in they're like oh you're an archaeologist. What about this gobecky tee site and it's just like immediately like the alarm bells in your back and the head you're like yeah this guy listen is Joe Rogan I'm about to get talked at by some Joe Rogan so whenever you say go Becky Typeie I'm a little trigger because I'm like I'm about to get talked at by a boomer who listens to Joe Rogan that was this that was a story that's like my but that's like that's my keyword. 12:34.71 Jesus of Nayarit Ah, Brett. 12:47.81 Jesus of Nayarit Fair enough. It's just one of those like buzzword things where I think it spun that like archaeologists thought and now they're like upended and wrong about it but like to my knowledge in the ten years that I've studied archeology like it's always been assumed that it was old. Um. 12:47.97 Jesse Um. 13:00.94 Shane There. 13:02.13 Jesse Well, it gets into that sensationalism that archeology is unfortunately notoriously tied to right and every headline about really interesting or the oldest or the biggest or something like that. 13:04.47 Jesus of Nayarit It's not. 13:20.57 Jesse Headlines were always this mystery confounds Archaeologists Archaeologists don't know X and it just really sensationalizes all of these things that actually we do know a lot about but that doesn't mean that we don't have. 13:29.59 Jesus of Nayarit Ah. 13:38.84 Jesse Questions still about them right. 13:40.34 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah, that's fair and it's always good to have questions still. 13:48.60 archpodnet Yeah, um, and I feel like this this paper this Lsu paper is in that same sort of vein is that it's very sensationalized but and I was I was very accepting of it as like oh this is this is cool. I. Didn't read the article but I assume they're doing good science but it turns out to be 1 of those things where you really dive deep into the article and you're kind of left with some questions so like the the big thing is is that they basically went back and dated a bunch of cores from this. Site from mounds on a site that's on Lsu's campus right? is that the the kind of gist of it. 14:29.72 Jesus of Nayarit Oh. 14:31.39 Shane Yeah, so these like Lsu mounds are like within those like group of archaic period mounds that are in Louisiana so it's not surprising that they're like early that they're part of this mound building culture. But the fact that they're like you know. Multiple Millennia before a Watson break which is the oldest um is like all right? That's red flag number one like really is it is it is it that old but then in the the other part of your brain. You're like well they didn't think Watson break was that old until they went back and redated it and they're like holy shit. It's it's it's but I have to say the difference between the two is the article on Watson break by saunders at all was written by archaeologists. And it was published in american antiquity and so it was like you're talking about a tight article that got through a peer review gauntlet. Um, this one's a little different and that I don't know. Ah. 15:41.88 Jesus of Nayarit What Journal is this. 15:46.93 Shane Journal had to Google the The American Journal ah or the American Journal Of Science it's like I don't think I've ever read an archaeology paper in this at all and it seems like it's geology based it seems like it's legit. It doesn't seem like 1 of those like. 15:50.99 Jesus of Nayarit Science. 16:05.95 Shane Ah, emails I get every morning that's like dearest theorists Sir Please please publish in our international Journal of Buzzwords Um, that's like the scam emails. It seems like it's a legit journal. But. 16:10.31 Jesse And. 16:18.25 Jesus of Nayarit Ah. 16:22.63 Shane I've never seen an archeology paper in it. 16:24.11 Jesse Yeah I had to Google it as well and they're kind of claimed to fame. The first thing that it says when you go to the journal's homepages. They're the longest continually published scientific journal in the United States or North America or something like that. But yeah I've never once read a. 16:24.42 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah, and. 16:43.97 Jesse Paper in this before which is you know, kind of strange if we're talking about cutting edge groundbreaking archeology. 16:49.60 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 16:51.34 archpodnet Right. 16:52.64 Shane It's kind of like the label on Edr or like the the ribbon the blue ribbon on Pbr when you pop the hood like oh. 16:55.51 Jesse That. 17:04.50 archpodnet Most ridiculous comparison. 17:09.32 Jesus of Nayarit You could say like comparative to Corona because it's like to beso Masphna It's like it. Not the best fear. It's it's fine it. It's fine. Um. 17:15.36 Shane Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's not american antiquity for archeology. It might be I p up there for I don't know I don't know I don't never heard but it's not. It's not like Saunders an american antiquity for Watson break. 17:23.30 Jesus of Nayarit You. 17:34.17 Jesus of Nayarit Sure and ah I just feel odd reading this right here that like they have to use equations using Pi multiple times in here to like Analyze Phytolith Concentrations to to date something. Could be like out of my wheelhouse understanding that but like other papers. It's a pretty straightforward dating process. Um, we have to go to the next segment here but we can We can jump in like I hitting the ground running now. 17:54.37 Shane Um, yeah. 17:55.36 Jesse Are we digging into it now. But. 17:59.70 archpodnet Ah. 18:05.21 Shane I.