00:01.93 Jesus of Nayarit Welcome back to episode 1 26 of a life neurons podcast we're here with Dr Jesse Tune and Shane Miller or Dr Shane Miller um and we are talking about the lsu mounds paper that I did I mess up your names. No Jesse Miller jane tune got it cool. 00:16.60 Shane We are. 00:21.10 Jesus of Nayarit Um, we yes, we're going to talk about old mounds and Jesse had a bone to pick with something. 00:26.31 Jesse Well when this first came out and people started talking about it I found it kind of strange that I didn't know anyone on the I didn't know any of the co-authors on the paper neither did she. 00:39.90 Jesus of Nayarit And you guys are like the big cheese in Southeastern arc too. 00:44.72 Jesse Well, that's not at all what I'm getting at but we did you know just publish a book about Southeastern archeology that dates of this time period that basically has every major archeologist in an academic setting who works on. 00:47.91 Jesus of Nayarit This is. 01:03.13 Jesse This time period archeology in the Southeast Um, and I don't bring that up to this. The I don't bring that up to diminish the co-authors and their backgrounds and and the science that goes into this paper at all. But. As it turns out Archaeology is a difficult science and you have to have training and a background to actually interpret some of these things and numerous times throughout the paper. It is pretty obvious that the folks writing this. Don't understand anything about the archeological context of the time period and of the region. Um, if you look at their background and training. They're all very accomplished scholars of geoscience Geology astrophysics. There Ah, there are a number of distinguished professors on the paper as coauthors but they don't have the background to talk about archeology necessarily in this context. Um, and that comes through you know when they're talking about the Ceremonialism. Of these mounds and human cremations but provide no information to back up their interpretation that these were human cremations in these ash layers at the bottoms of the mounds. Um, they. 02:29.46 Shane Was it just because it's so hot is that what the whole entire argument is like that's what they they was that what they were getting at I had a heart all on. 02:36.00 Jesse Well, they say well. The fires were quote very hot and go on to say that they were °c wildfires burn every day at temperatures above °c so saying that they're °c doesn't really mean anything right in terms of the cause of these fires. Um, so yeah, doesn't they don't really explain anything or cite anything about where they're coming up with this interpretation that these are. Cremation human cremations. They try to argue this point that the mounds are old because humans have been in the Americas for 10000 years by that point so they've developed these complex cultural traditions. That's a whole other debate about when people got to North America right and they reference the presumed human trackways and and feet prints at white sands and they actually cite something for that. They they cite Lizzie Wade's Kind of public facingcing piece in science Lizzie Wade is a contributing correspondent for the journal science. She does great work talking about archeology. But if you're trying to use that to support your argument. You should cite the actual scientific peer reviewed paper instead of. 04:08.12 Jesse Public facing discussion of that paper. They they don't even mention anything that Matthew Bennett and and his colleagues did about that. So it's clear that they don't really have any kind of grasp on the archaeological literature or the background that goes into. Forming the context here. 04:30.45 Shane So I feel like that's a good segue into this point we can talk about them the the dates right? like this gets if you're an archeologist and especially one that has like run the gauntlet that tune and I have run on. Run through for for a while now on the paleo you indian stuff when you date something and you publish a date that is going to be like the most scrutinized thing that you're probably going to people are going to want to know they're not only going to want to know what the dates are. What exactly you dated? Um, they're going to need you to see you could substantiate what you say it is and they're going to want to see like the values of the raw numbers and everything used to actually derive that day. There is a. The latest paper that waters it all did on the dating of clovis they not only went into the details of the clovis dates from findel muo about what they said they were dating what the context of what they were saying the relationship of the archeology of the dating. They even went as far as to critique the statistical methods the University Of Arizona's Radiocarbon lab was using to get the standard deviations on their date. So I mean like it gets deep into the weeds. 06:02.31 Shane And then there's like a whole entire body of theory out there that if you're an archeologist that it's called site Formation Theory You read every archaeologist reads it in grad school about like how archaeological sites are created all the things that can happen after that archeological site is created. And I'm sitting here thinking like if you have a stable surface that's accumulating a lot of debris from Bamboo and then it's burnt and then it's chewed up from people making a mound. Screams by returbation that screams like there's a famous old wood problem and that's where it's like you inadvertently date something that's much older than your archaeological site and the classic example this would be like beams in the southwest where you're like recycling old logs to use as beams for your house. And you were to date that log and it might be much much older than the actual age of the occupation of the house. So I mean like there's a lot here that could be giving you older Dates. You could be dating an old Surface. You could be dating old wood. And there's a bunch of the geowork stuff that we see That's just not here. So It's like I don't know how to even talk about it because the stuff that I normally talk about just not here. 07:21.84 Jesse Yeah, but that's a good point. Shane I mean there's a reason that this paper I I think is hasn't been discussed that much in archeological circles because the information that we need to discuss it isn't even there and. And again, let me I think that's another red flag right? for for trying to understand what's going on with this. 07:46.91 Shane I shall point out that I looked up the article meg casa bomb's article in in the break and she has a table the oldest mounds in the lower Mississippi River Valley and there is she has montesano in there. And the dates for that 1 are 5500 y five hundred to four thousand bc so 7500 potentially as old as Monte Sano and so it's not this one is not crazy older than that. But the link. The article that she references in the Louisiana Conservancy so I'm really curious I might have to dig in a montass sano to see if montass sano's actually as old as they say it is and if it's or if it's another article like this. But if Meg's citing it I actually have some trust that she's done her homework on it. Oh she's much. 08:38.54 archpodnet Yeah, so my question is so they've they published this article. They have dates to have this core if they want to prove or if they want to study this further. How does 1 excavate. 08:43.26 Shane Yeah. 08:56.40 archpodnet Ah, mound or how does 1 sample amount to kind of corroborate these dates and hopefully get some sort of archaeology or something like that to make it feel and make their argument stronger. Essentially so. 09:11.61 Shane Man for one I would love to see there's something about like soil descriptions like probably that are in Hamburg's research that would be nice to see there would be. Particle size pair it up with that magnetic success successibility success so you did it better than me. Um, and some organic carbon percent to let us know like all right? are you looking at are we in an old surface here is like. At the bottom of that mound where does the buried soil begin where this thing was presumably built on top of organic carbon percent and particle size would show you where that started. Um I would like to see some kind of like they have a unit in this thing that clearly somebody has dug. Excavate that out get somebody out to come do some micromorphology. Let's look at that ash and let's see what get somebody who's seen some micromorphology of some ash deposits somebody like Sarah Sherwood or a Susan Mencer to look at it. Ah. I think that you adding in some bayesium modeling so you could really evaluate these radiocarbon dates and like having somebody who's an expert in that and also knows the pitfalls of what happens when you're comparing. Um. 10:40.63 Shane Sediment dates to fitoli dates to filith dates with bone mixed in to like all these issues. Um, and then somebody who can who is an expert in like the regional. 10:58.75 Shane Archeology they can put this into some kind of context and really lay. The picture is this really an outlier is this an unexpected result and if that's the case, why might that be so somebody like a tr kitter that I think would would have would have made this a lot better that would have. Clean this up and streamlined it quite a bit I think like if you're looking at people different people to like read up like how is this done done in convincing ways. Um t r kidder his students Seth grooms and Grace Ward are some of the best that doing this right now. They they got some of the best stuff coming out of these archaic mounds already said Sarah Sherwood and Meg Casabaum um Tim Shilling if you're interested in some stuff with like bayesy modeling. Um. Stuff the people that I like if I have bazing modeling question problems issues for this type of stuff I go to Jake Luitz um if you want to see a good geoareology rundown of a mounds and mound building episodes. And you really want to get into the weeds and look at what like a real archeological monograph looks like go get David Anderson's reports from shiloh mounds and read that um flip. 12:23.00 Jesus of Nayarit And we're gonna have him on for that too. 12:25.68 Shane Ah, you want to see like what it takes to really write up and make a case. Um, that's what it looks like. That's what um, that's what the real deal looks like that's what that's what I would That's that's all I I feel like I was a long-winded. 12:41.52 Jesus of Nayarit Henry. 12:41.52 Jesse And I think those are good points right? because if this actually is if the mounds are as old as they are trying to argue that they are. That's really cool. That's incredibly exciting. And we're all going to be over the moon to hear about it and hear all of these details but those are the details that make us as archeologist archeologists excited about this right? Um, that that's actually what makes the story. You know that's what Shane was saying like. If you want to create this story and and interpret the data those are the things you're going to have to do instead of giving some kind of strange description of the history of mounds in the eastern woodlands and then throw in. Ah, paragraph about astronomical alignments of a couple of mounds without any kind of context. Um that that's just kind of clickbaity is really kind of what it comes down to um, yeah, it. 13:51.50 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah, um. 13:51.74 Shane Um I got a hypothetical for you guys? Ah so for paleoinian stuff like we've got all these papers have come out in the last few years using 13:55.81 Jesse Let's hear it. 14:05.93 Shane All kinds of Manners Big Data data sets to kind of predict like you know when certain megafauna disappears and when people shows up show up and everything that's like you know, like using various mathematical curves I try to predict the earliest of something like when when is the window for like. And either something shows up or something disappears you know first appearance last appearance right? like archae out like paleoenian archeologist and people interested and like verb or paleontology right? He has followed me here so far. Um. 14:38.55 Jesse Yeah, yeah. 14:41.91 Shane Why don't we see that type of stuff for like trying to figure out like they got a big data set of mounds like why don't you see like them being like all right? Why can't we run this curve against mounds or like the appearance of corn in like Eastern woodlands and stuff like that. Why don't you see that same type of mathematic looking model mathematical modeling to try to figure out the earliest of something. This people studying later stuff. 15:03.46 Jesus of Nayarit I Guess it's kind of like presumed. We just know a little more about that and like it's not no, one's really delved into that that nitty gritty so far. But now you bring it up like that is interesting. 15:16.56 Jesse I Think maybe part of it is I think maybe part of that is because those of us who work on the early end of things We don't have a lot of stuff to work with. But if you're working on the more recent end of things you have a lot more data a lot more information to go. 15:18.47 Shane Ah, there's a big database. Go ahead. Just. 15:29.75 Jesus of Nayarit Maha. 15:35.75 Jesse By and so you don't have to necessarily dig into those level questions quite as much but you know for us that's that's natural. It's the first thing it come kind of comes to mind right? because that's typically the some of the only things that we have to go by. 15:47.42 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 15:54.24 Shane Like I think about like this article not too long ago. It came out that ah talking about the appearance of Mace in the eastern woodlands and for years it was kind of like late woodland is kind of when most of the dates pop up. But then there's always been like this. Ice house bottom date from like the middle woodland or something that I think it's ice house bottom and there was an article that came out that basically looked into it and it's like nah. This date is wrong and so it's this monster outlier and that if you would like run mathematical modeling. It would have probably flagged this as an outlier date. Um, but no one really I don't I don't really see that or if I see it. It's like squirrled away like and corners of like academia that unless you're in that niche. You don't see it like you know I don't know I wonder. 16:44.14 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah, the Reddit headlined of corn in this specific area not as old as we thought isn't like the best sexiest headline it. 16:48.59 Shane Um, right right? but I kind of feel like my mom like we got so much mound data right? like that like why? Why aren't people trying shit out on this. 16:54.66 Jesse Um, clickbait. 17:06.72 Shane And then getting a proof of concept down for paleo indian stuff instead. It seemed I don't know it's maybe it's because like Jesse was saying like necess is the mother of invention. We don't have enough shit so we're willing to try experimental mathematical wallet modeling which gets people all worked up. 17:12.96 Jesus of Nayarit Her. 17:21.20 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 17:22.80 archpodnet Yeah I would also say it's like high stakes like the earliest people in in North America is like a high stakes like you're you're gambling at like the the big blackjack tables. Everyone else is at like the. 17:25.37 Shane Given the people what they. 17:41.97 archpodnet $1 five dollars pay-ins sort of thing. You know it's it's kind of make or breakup there. It doesn't make it less interesting but it it seems like that. The stakes are much higher in that Paleoindian period. 17:53.77 Shane Man I want tell people doing Mississippi and archeology that they're they're at the little kid blackjack table on that's why and no matter how big a room they schedule for paleu indian stuff. It will always fill up and yet you walk in essay a is and it's like here's like some like. Esoteric mississipian session and it's in a big ballroom with 4 people and you get like ah echo on the walls. Um, yeah I don't know I'm gonna start calling us the big blackjack table or the high rollers um gets. 18:25.30 archpodnet Well thank you for being No thank you guys for being the high rollers on this podcast by the way. 18:31.33 Shane Um, we get behavior. Yeah. 18:35.70 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah's Jesse's third or fourth time Shane's fit damn dude. Yeah, we got to get those bath robs ready. Um all right? um. 18:36.75 archpodnet Fourth and Shane's at the big 5 18:48.49 Shane Um, looking with velvet bathrobes. 18:50.58 archpodnet We can't afford velvet. 18:51.64 Jesus of Nayarit I I. 18:52.60 Shane Um, with your faces on the back embroidered on the back did a tory to cut it. Ah. 18:56.37 Jesse Yes. 18:57.66 archpodnet But like our little like ah. 19:00.24 Jesus of Nayarit I know we got to wrap up? Oh um, that I had 1 more question like I guess I'll make this quick. But oh that's really funny. He has 1 19:05.10 Jesse I Want that on the back of my bathrobe. 19:06.53 Shane Um, yeah. 19:08.46 archpodnet That's what I was thinking to the little shebes. 19:17.47 Jesus of Nayarit Um, quickly. Its want to ask like we talked about how like if this went through antiquity. It'd be extremely scrutinized and we're like antiquity is pretty sound or American antiquity and like but this is in some other random journal that we've never heard of um. To the public that might sound like when you put it through an archaeological journal. The Archaeology Mafia is like no, we don't like this and won't put it in there and that's why all these people like saruti go to other journals and things like that. Um I Guess my question would be like. 19:53.20 Jesus of Nayarit I Don't know I Guess that's just an observation like it could come across that way but also like we do good science and therefore we like try to be scrutinous of science. You know I Just don't know how the people interpret that. 20:03.44 Jesse Well I I was actually thinking about that earlier this afternoon and I think honestly this paper is another example of when peer review fails if you read the acknowledgements They think a single reviewer. 20:13.92 Jesus of Nayarit 1 20:22.51 Jesse And this is not an archeology journal. But it's an archeology paper or at least they're trying to make it sound like 1 if this was in an archaeology journal you're going to have multiple reviewers who are specialized in multiple areas that. 20:28.15 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 20:40.70 Jesse Ah, really critical to this paper all of those things that Shane was talking about a minute ago. You're going to have specialized reviewers in most of those instead of a single person who may or may not have any background in archeology. So. 20:54.49 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 20:59.13 Jesse Yeah, it's It's not that the archeology Mafia is you know out there in the shadows trying to keep things suppressed. But again it comes back to that idea that archaeology is a very challenging science that you have to have ah. 21:05.93 Jesus of Nayarit Portion agenda. Yeah. 21:19.00 Jesse The appropriate background to to discuss these kinds of things. 21:22.77 Shane Speaking of archeology mafia that archaeology mafia can help you stay on the rails if you get off the rails like I mean like Jesse saying it's like guardrails at the same time to keep keep us all like somebody goes off the. 21:40.76 Jesse I. 21:41.36 Shane And speaking of just got a text spec from Meg Casa Palm who told me all these years I've been telling my students Watson break is the earliest mound site and she told me that Montes Sano is actually the earliest mound site and so she says that there's a new volume in Louisiana archaeology on it that's coming out and. 21:43.63 Jesus of Nayarit It's a family Trump. 22:00.95 archpodnet So state yeah, stay tuned. Yeah, stay tuned for that and also Shane is a big fraud. So don't listen to anything he lectures about. 22:01.80 Shane So that's actually the earliest site. So my member of the archeology pop that going through. 22:04.75 Jesse Um. 22:12.82 Shane Um, and I was shit. 22:14.27 Jesus of Nayarit Um, and one peer reviewer was mentioned in in the acknowledgance but not 1 in loving memory of the girl who was run over um on that end there. Let's just that moment of silence for them all right enough. 22:21.24 archpodnet Rp take. 22:28.20 Jesus of Nayarit Ah, guys where can our audience find you. 22:31.90 Jesse The rain go Colorado or fishing up the gulf coast. 22:37.15 Jesus of Nayarit Okay, Shane that's right brother all right? Um, they're on academia chain's got a Twitter I think Jesse You have a Twitter as well. 22:38.36 Shane Oh man, the dive bars of Florida's ah Treasure Coast Florida Sparkville Mississippi. 22:52.37 Jesus of Nayarit Um, and yeah. 22:53.40 archpodnet Ah, we'll drop some links of their emails so you can get discounts on their books buy the book listen to their previous episodes search them weirdly on Academia Edu Shane really likes that. Um. 23:07.16 Shane People. 23:08.81 archpodnet Yeah, thank you guys for coming on and with that we are out. 23:13.66 Jesus of Nayarit Out. Um Connor what is ah what is your joke this week who in the fuck. Thank you. 23:18.40 archpodnet Among. 23:26.89 Jesse Um. 23:29.70 archpodnet That's the joke. No I don't know if you guys just heard about this a new type of broom came out. It's sweeping the nation. 23:31.16 Jesus of Nayarit Get a. 23:37.00 Jesus of Nayarit Oh my God All right I got to go fill out this expense report I'll see you guys later. 23:39.60 Shane Um, ah ah oh.