00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to episode 128 of a life and ruins podcast where we invested great welcome to episode 29 of a life and ruins podcast where we investigate the careers of those living a life in ruins I am your host connor johnnon today I am lucky to be joined by Dr Alex Garcia Putnam and Christine howling Dr Garcia was on episode 82 and is currently the assistant state physical and anthropologist for the state of Washington Christine Holling is a bio archeologist and works currently for the Louisiana department of justice as an anthropologist I'm very excited to have both of you on because. As I was saying in the green room bio archeology is critically and underrepresented in our podcast so far. So um, we're very excited to have you on. How are you both doing on this lovely sunday. 00:48.20 Christine Um, doing good Thanks for having us on. 00:51.65 Alex Yeah, definitely. 00:55.52 archpodnet Yeah, so because this is our our general mmo of this podcast is that we like to hear about people's trajectory. Um, how they kind of gotten into and anthropology first memories. Um, so Christine what was like your first memory or First. Ah. Encounter with anthropology or like bones when you were grown up. 01:18.52 Christine Yeah, so ah, my family tells me that apparently and the first time I broke my wrist which was I was like 5 years old I bought a book on bones and instead all 206 bones memorized but that is not really what got me into archeology I went. 01:36.70 Christine And high school I was probably already kind of nontraditional and decided to take a mythology class from a english class instead of in a sort of other type of history class or english class and I was fortunate enough to go on a spring break to Greece. And back then it was. It's like the year two thousand and I was like 1516 years old and they're still doing some stuff on their um on their subway system and whatnot and all of a sudden you're seeing all of this archaeological material behind these glass cases in the subway system. And throughout all of the archaeology sites who would be visited there I was just like wait. You can dig in the dirt and let that's a job you can do that I want to figure out how to do that and that's really what led me into archaeology I'm going to school for that. So oh. 02:37.45 archpodnet So very very cool um so your ah grew up in and Minnesota is that why you kind of stayed in state to ultimately study anthropology right. 02:48.35 Christine Yeah I grew up in Minnesota so in the and the twin cities area and there's a couple schools nearby in Wisconsin and Minnesota that um are are pretty anthropology heavy for the areas and I ended up really enjoy I went to school at. 03:06.87 Christine And Mankato Minnesota Southern Minnesota and um I just really enjoyed it I liked it being a small program. Um I'm usually a little bit on the shy and quiet side. So having ah a smaller setting where I wasn't was one of a thousand faces felt really a lot more comfortable to me. So. Going to a smaller school for anthropology it really just made me feel a lot more comfortable but there are some fantastic bio archeologists that work at Mankato and in St Paul Minnesota in ham at Hamlin University and so I was lucky enough to work with. Ah, few bio archaeologists out there as well. That um, really encouraged and kind of fostered my love for my archaeology and studying human bones. So. 03:55.90 archpodnet You and and then you decided to continue on into the the world of acade academia or at least start that journey. Um, at the University Of Indianapolis 03:58.30 Christine Ah, yeah, so um I did take some time off I was just doing odd jobs and lived in Chicago for a year because why not. And um I wanted to see if I could. Handle being of yeah working in forensic anthropology since forensic anthropology works with the recent dead I had experience on the bioarcheology side and actually in between the summers before I started grad school I was going and working on some digs in Greece so I was doing. Ah, bio archeology field program in Greece and then I went back and ran the total station. My second summer out in Greece and then I started grad school for my master's degree which is the program is called human biology they didn't want anybody to be. To Pigeon hold into forensic anthropology and at the time at University Of Indianapolis it was forensic anthropology and archeology. They were all one program back then now they're separated so you can do a separate archeology masters at that school. But the time they were together so I kind of got to do the best of both worlds and I got to do active forensic anthropology casework in the state of Indiana and Illinois but then also got to do a lot of bio archeology driven coursework and. 05:29.90 Christine Um, managed to stumble into working with the campsville archaeological project and so I worked in the summers then as eventually I was first I was an intern but then lab director for the bio archeology field school and campsville. So. I got to do a lot of really fun things for a while there that stemmed from me going to school in Indianapolis. 05:57.57 archpodnet So very cool. Um, and how did you 2 meet each other how how did you? both end up was it you both end up in Louisiana is that how. 06:07.30 Christine Yeah, it's a classic um, you're at a conference and and you may to make a new friend and you know 5 minutes in I think Kelly was just your wife was just starting to make that transition to Lsu. And so what else do you do? but invite people you met for 5 minutes to come stay at your really shitty apartment so that they could find a place to stay. 06:29.86 Alex Um, yeah, um, actually and you guys have had Alex Craib on the program at least once. Um, and he was who introduced the 2 of us. Ah, so they where were you guys friends from. 06:46.90 Christine Ah, my friend back to campsville my friend is Katie Caulhavey and she got Tennessee now friends and whatever year that conference was we talking about baton rouge. 06:51.65 Alex Ah, one of his good friends. 06:58.60 Alex Got it. 07:03.65 Christine There It starts. Oh Doc can you hear the. 07:08.20 Alex Um, op pop is usually and. 07:11.55 archpodnet Oh body? Yeah, ah, that's good. 07:19.96 Alex but ah but yeah so we met at the Essayas and and we were just about to move to Baton Rouge and um and having a friend down there to get started was was amazing as she said are we crash in her apartment when we were house hunting and um and also you know and then for me it was. Um I was just looking for something to do and and some archeology friends and you know and it was great to have someone to bounce ideas off of um and the real stroke of luck for me was my research got shut down during the pandemic. Um. And I reached out to Christine and I was like you guys got anything I like would love to spit spitball some ideas would love to just to chat and she was like we have a huge project that we can't deal with it's it's too large for us on you know with all of our caseload would you like Ted to kind of come and. 08:03.90 Christine Um. 08:17.00 Alex Think about handling that and and and working with that and that ended up being the the skeletal collection I I kind of based my dissertation around. Yes yeah, and being able to do a lab-based dissertation with an existing collection that. 08:23.50 archpodnet Very very fortunate. 08:35.53 Alex What they weren't able to kind of spend the time they wanted to on um, was was a great way to to get through the pandemic and was ah enabled me to kind of move forward with my career without hitting a huge 2 3 year pause button. 08:41.20 Christine But. 08:51.46 Christine Yeah, and it was great that Alex Alex also already had interest in the topic too in terms not just his skills and bio archeology but he was interested in sort of the the dynamics of that population and what he could do with it and we were just. 08:53.73 Alex Um. 09:10.86 Christine Really thankful and knowing now what happened a few months later is that our disaster response work started to kick up it still would be sitting there and um, we're just so thankful that Alex could come in and and work on it because otherwise it would still be sitting and I think that's a. And something we don't talk about a lot in bio archeology but letting collections sit and not get dealt with is actually ah a bigger failing I think than to say well we've got it. You know we can do what they've been dead for how long they can wait a little bit longer. Let's just get it done and get them so we can make some decisions about how we didn't need to move forward and handle these situations and since he's done all this really wonderful work now we can deal with that. 10:00.89 Alex Um, yeah, it was. It was pretty incredible being able to I mean being able to work straight through the pandemic as well I was fortunate I had um. 10:02.41 archpodnet How's it. 10:12.22 Alex It was a very big, very commingled collection. So I needed a large space and they just took over a conference room in their office. Um, so I was I had this massive conference room to myself. Um I felt I felt very lucky. 10:27.29 Christine I've over 2 more offices I've taken over 2 more offices now and I have a whole dedicated table in a closed room. Yeah. 10:35.11 Alex Oh excellent, Yeah no I mean there. It's interesting and so they're in the department of Justice and so it's There's a lot of people around that office that don't really know what goes on in the you know, um. 10:51.62 Alex And I did we I'm glad that we had a sign on the door. Um, saying you know you know I think it said something to the effect of like human remains please be respectful like door remains locked kind of thing. But. 11:01.73 Christine Um, yeah, we um since I work with mostly attorneys with the other really wonderful thing about having a friend like Alex come in and work is I to have somebody else to talk to and. 11:03.27 archpodnet Yeah. 11:14.46 Alex Um, yeah. 11:17.87 Christine You know, actually discuss human remains issues with because it's mostly just me and my boss most of the time and um, having somebody else interested in like hey, what's this weird thing I don't know let's talk about this one um made it really really fun to have somebody else around and. Do that kind of stuff with so. 11:37.72 archpodnet So like in my perception of and my small knowledge of knowing Bare bio archeologists. It seems like it's a very small group kind of tightknit group of folks like I don't It doesn't seem like there's a ton of people who do specifically bio archeology. Um, did is that does that ring true or is it kind of a ah bigger community or. 12:04.76 Alex It's it's growing. 12:07.40 Christine Yeah, if you look at the numbers from the essay, the big archeological the by archeology Interest group Big um it has one of the largest um concentrations of of folks registered with them and that interest group so it feels. 12:25.28 Christine Kind of big sometimes actually I think in our small world but I guess it's in the Grand scheme of and a lot of people I know and friends with they're all by archaeologists so it feels like there's a lot of us out there but it probably really isn't as big as we think it is or. 12:42.93 Alex Yeah, it's it's it's interesting. Also I think it's so it's a growing field I feel like every year there's more and more and more grad students pushing for for bio archeology I think um, forensic anthropology was really hot five six seven years ago 12:43.50 Christine I do. Mr. 12:59.94 Alex And I think a that may be kind of transferring over to bio Archeology I know um we kind of both started thinking that we wanted to do forensics. Um I actually and my master's research was was forensic, anthropological and I. And very glad that I went bio archeology for my Ph D and for my career. Um, but I think that's that's happening more and more. 13:25.97 Christine Yeah, that or I mean there's some definite overlap too I Feel like um, you know, even some of the work I do although it is not forensic anthropology and kind of a typical sense because it is recent human remains and not actually biowork. 13:27.50 Alex Oh yeah. 13:43.50 Christine It kind of walks this weird line between forensics and historic and Bioarch It's this very kind of blurred field that some of us I think find ourselves into and and that's okay I mean it is what it is but I think there's some definite There's. We're finding. There's more overlap than there. It used to feel like a really distinct line. It did one or the other. But now I think it's a lot more intertwined. 14:12.00 Alex Yeah, it's oh go ahead. 14:13.90 archpodnet Would you as I say does that like the do you think like that excitement from the forensic and or for the and forensic anthropology stuff is like the like a bones thing from the Tv show or something like that because I I feel like I knew a lot of people who are like I want to be exactly like bones. You know. 14:31.97 Alex So. 14:32.56 archpodnet Doing that sort of thing. 14:34.10 Christine Yeah I tell people to I'm like I wish we had some of that technology but that's just Tv wait it wait. We sit in ah and a closed room usually in a basement and there are no holograms and like there. Yeah. 14:37.24 Alex Yeah I get that a lot. 14:50.30 Christine And a 3 d renderings. You're just working by yourself usually in a very dark room. 14:57.50 Alex I will also say in all those shows like that the classic Csi bones. They always have like ah light tables. Those are really terrible to work on. Um, they don't they don't work that way. 15:01.18 Christine Yeah. 15:10.55 Christine Um, and I can't say I've never actually used one that for what we do. Ah. 15:12.64 Alex Um, I mean I've used one for like art stuff and it it wouldn't It doesn't work for for for other things. Yeah now. 15:24.76 archpodnet What's it's it's It's always so dark in there too. It's like that doesn't seem comfortable to me like dealing with human rains and like doing it in like a dark room seems like ah, a recipe for disaster. Yeah, ah. 15:28.80 Christine And. 15:33.84 Alex Um, doing any archeology would. 15:38.80 Christine Um, that absolutely no. 15:40.30 archpodnet So go ahead. 15:41.93 Alex Um, but yeah I Oh no I think there was a huge spike in the um like the forensic Anthropology majors. Um, when that show became really popular I think if memory serves I I saw a graph at one point. 15:49.16 Christine Um, but. 15:57.63 Alex That like it showed that that perfect spike following Bones is popularity. Um. 16:06.27 archpodnet Um, so just for ah, just just for folks who are not um, really in tune with art. Don't know what the difference between forensic anthropology and bio archeology. What would you just called and what would you describe the difference as. 16:14.73 Christine Just more. It's just. 16:21.59 Christine 1 is ah a legal application. So like forensic anthropology you're you're more likely to be involved in current missing persons cases homicides all sorts of things that could go into a legal context in that regard whereas. Bioeologists are typically dealing with the much more at least past historic Mark of human remains. Um, and so I guess that's the way I would draw a distinction between the 2 of them. 16:52.53 Alex Yeah I mean our methodologies are very similar and you know we're looking at um, kind of similar markers on the human Skeleton to answer similar questions um looking at the basic demographics of. You know a skeletal population or or ah or a single individual right in forensic Anthropology. The goal is unattempted identification of this individual um whereas in bioareology you're looking more. Um. Especially when you have like a skeletal sample at a large a large sample you're looking more at the demographics of that group to learn something about a past population. 17:33.10 archpodnet That cool and at this moment I think we're going to take a little break. Um this is episode 29 of a life and ruins podcast. We will be right back.