00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode 29 of a life and ruins podcast. We have Dr Al out we have Dr Alex Garcia Putnam and Christina Halling and we're talking about bio archeology and I wanted to start off this segment just asking you. What you do for your job because you you have similar jobs but different titles I would say um I don't know if Alex if you want to go first. 00:30.35 Alex Yeah, sure. So um I work for the state of Washington for the department of archeology and historic preservation and I am their assistant state physical anthropologist. Um, if it were up to me. Um I would consider I consider myself a bio archeologist. That's what my trainings and that's what. My research is was in um and the title physical anthropologists just is ah is a kind of more broad title It's also slightly kind of an older um, an older turn of phrase within the field of what we are now biological anthropology. Um. Ah, but yeah, my job is to work on all human remains fines that are non-forensic on state private and public lands. So I don't do um I work on a lot of things that um would not fall under nagpro. Ah, for instance, us, these are things that fall under our kind of local state jurisdiction and I work on um native human remains that get found from construction I work on historic remains as well as things like um, medical specimen turnovers. One of the kind of. 01:40.71 Alex More common things that happens is someone is cleaning out their uncle's garage and he was a doctor and they find his old medical specimens. Um and they don't know what to do with them and and those will come to us and we will kind of put them through our our process. Ah the goal for us is is really rapid repatriation working with tribes. 01:50.12 Christine Connect to. 01:58.86 Alex And other local groups to kind of get things back to their um into a respectful burial or or whatever disposition. The folks want. So. 02:07.84 archpodnet And and you guys have a very strong relationship with tribes and it's a very involved process with them. 02:16.28 Alex Yeah, it's a very collaborative process with ah with the tribes across Washington state um, and it's it's something that my supervisor has worked for a long time to to build with those with those tribe members and it's. Um, I've only been in the position for about a year so I still very much feel like I'm learning the ropes and I'm constantly meeting new people and and working with with new tribes and in new areas of the state washington is huge um and ah in remarkably diverse geographically and culturally and. It's been incredible to kind of move across the state and ah you know help this help with this process and um, kind of make it go as smoothly as possible. That's kind of our end goal. 02:57.27 archpodnet You know and Christine you you have a different job title but work in a kind of a similar capacity in Louisiana. 03:08.27 Christine Yeah, so in Louisiana um, my job started sort of more broadly as titled research associate. It was just a ah position that my boss who is an attorney as well as an archaeologist was sort of able to help. Um, develop as more and more of these issues were being handled by the state and needed some sort of intervention and who could do that better than somebody who was working um at the attorney general's office so at my and my position then that after I'd been there for a few years decided that we needed to change the title so that it reflected more accurately. What it is that we actually do so I am the anthropologist on staff at the attorney general's office and um, that is the only one that exists in the united states there are no other anthropologists in attorney general's offices. Anywhere else. Um and similar to Alex I mean Alex's job is is going to be a hand It's probably the only one that's titled what it is but also it's one of a handful state level positions that ah are going to exist across the United States um and so I similarly deal with all kind of cemetery issues and human remains issues that come up for the state most of the time and yeah, non forensic because we have Lsu and they do all the forensic casework with what we work with. 04:41.45 Christine Pretty often actually so we're we're usually communicating about a lot of casework regardless but anything that people don't really know what to do with it comes to us for a disposition. So. It's the same kind of idea of like okay we have this issue we have an issue of cemetery desecration. Well because. Or situated within and this is just the way Louisiana structured but the attorney general's office has investigators in house and and whatnot so we work with folks that will you know help us get warrants if need be and help us. Deal with recovery of human remains if there's not voluntary turnover and that's partially what my job started out of was to stop human remains trafficking so Louisiana again because of its sort of unique situation. Both in that they have above ground tombs that get damaged and. Human remains can be. You know, pulled out of them pretty easily. Um, it also happens to have because New Orleans is thought of as kind of this funky dark vampire. You know, kind of odd character of a city people come there and have come there. Specifically sell and auction off human remains and in Louisiana that's explicitly illegal so we we were definitely very heavy into dealing with stopping people selling human remains when I first started this job that's kind of dropped off now that people know it's illegal. 06:15.67 Christine So he and remains in Louisia so we see a kind of a we had kind of a different changeover but still have a lot of cemetery issues that we deal with. 06:28.25 archpodnet So if in those cases when these cemeteries are above ground burials um are released through storm whatever happens. Um, what is that kind of process. 06:42.58 Alex Go one. 06:43.80 archpodnet Look like um on your end. So. 06:46.20 Christine Yeah, um, Ed Louis Dianaa you know gets it gets hit pretty often with some so some significant storms. Um in the last two years we had actually in one calendar year we had um, four major hurricanes hit. Ah, state of Louisiana in addition to a lot of other smaller storms that also hit Louisiana but and we had four major hurricanes hit in one calendar year and so what happens is that oftentimes those cemeteries that have above ground. 07:23.50 Christine Burials they're usually in what's called a burial vault. It looks very much like a concrete container um or a mausoleum but that would be a structure that would be like 2 or 3 um grave spaces tall by you know, maybe 5 or 10 down and or you know rows and columns. They're above ground and when these storms hit I don't ah I mean I don't think people understand necessarily the amount of force that sometimes that water has if I mean they move entire houses. So ah, two to. £6000 volt is not going to stop the water so the water will hit these structures and then either eject the entire vault or eject the casket from that vault um or mausoleum and send them. Flood. Ah, really like anywhere within the water and so um I think. In 1 of our storms in 2020. We found a casket that we recovered up to eight miles away from what we the nearest cemetery we don't even know if it's related to that cemetery. Um, and then similarly in 2021 with other storms they went across bayous across. Um, you know, ah a good probably mile or 2 away from their cemeteries at minimum and we're still kind of working on some of that. But um, that disaster storm response is something we've become a lot more involved with with some of our. 08:54.36 Christine Recent legislation changes at the State. So I'm one of the members of the statewide. Cemetery response task force and so there's a small group of us that do all of the reinterments for all the remains that get displaced in storms. So can be a lot. 09:14.44 archpodnet But that hurts my brain that they're moving that far I mean but like you said with the amount of force that is in and water movement etc. That's pretty not yeah. 09:23.51 Christine It does some truly astounding things we have one that so sometimes the vaults are double stacked so one on top of another and they usually have concrete around securing them together. But we actually have one where the bottom came out. 09:24.86 Alex What. 09:42.26 Christine Ah Top one sat down and it just makes your brain go. How did the bottom one it and this one still stay but it did and it's it's sort of it's really hard to conceive but water does strange things and I don't think if I mean I am not a hydrologist by any means. Um, I've done a little bit of work on water movement. But that is it's true like it's astounding to see some of the things that we see and it just goes to show you I think there's a lot more recognition now of how um how important is to pay attention to storm warnings. Important it is to take care of yourself and get out of places which wasn't didn't used to exist and yeah in earlier storms. Oh. It's just a hurricane. It'll be fine. 10:31.86 Alex I I left Louisiana officially moved out of Louisiana as an evacuee from ida in 2021 so that was how I hacked my car up and and took off and moved to Washington. Um. 10:43.59 Christine Just like. 10:49.85 Alex And that storm season was crazy as well because they stacked on top of each other. Um and I can so I can imagine dealing with you know, 3 storms that have if memory serves that storm season they were back to back to back. 11:04.17 Christine Yeah, it's um, for people who don't live in Louisiana um, in the end of August Twenty Twenty we had Hurricane Laura which was actually coupled with Hurricane Marco at the same time they were both developing right off Louisiana and then about 6 Ish weeks later in early October the exact same location that got hit by Laura got hit by Hurricane Delta then later that year just before the end of Hurricane season New Orleans area got hit by Hurricane Zata it's all the way into z and then. Almost a year exactly later in August of 2021 ida hit the so just it came on land ah south of New Orleans in the plaquemans and jefferson parish areas and stuff so it it it truly has affected those. Storms have affected the entire coastline of Louisiana from east to west so we're working in the westernmost parishes on Lauren Delta storm response and we're still, we're gonna be dealing with that for a long time but I'm just wrapping up some stuff from. We had a big storm system sit on us in 2016 that caused 800 and some graves disruptions in the middle of the state. We are still closing out one cemetery from that. So as a it's a longterm project. We're we're in it for the long haul. But so now that had. 12:33.16 Christine Cameron Parrish in the very west of Louisiana had Laura Delta the whole state and then we had say then ida on the eastern side of the state all within one calendar year which is crazy I mean I've lived here now since. And move down here in 2014? Um, my first storm experience was a very strange flooding event in 2016 but then I didn't really experience any major hurricanes until 2020 and we've just been going ever since and keeping our fingers crossed. 13:08.86 Alex 1 and the the other thing that I didn't realize when I moved down to Louisiana is that even the other storm systems that the non- hurricane storm systems can cause serious flooding and serious damage that 26 team flood. 13:09.74 Christine Ah. 13:09.97 archpodnet Ah, so. 13:15.15 Christine You yeah. 13:26.80 Alex Was not associated if memory serves with a with a hurricane. Um, we had in 2020 severe flooding in baton rouge um, not related at all to a hurricane. Ah just big storm systems moving through. Um. 13:43.20 Christine Yeah, that 20161 was just such a fluke of a big rain system sat and dropped. Um, it's just because it stalled and it stalled over the Amy River and it it dropped thirty plus inches of water within. 13:58.24 archpodnet Wow. 13:58.53 Christine Like 48 hours it was just and because of that area and again, um, a lot of the development and change that's happened to Louisiana um, you know after Katrina a lot of folks moved out up to Baton Ridge Development kind of exploded up there and then has since been. You know, kind of this balancing act between the 2 cities. Um, but with so much development happening in the baton roge area if the water gets backed up in that particular basin and the by the Amy River and there's there's just nowhere for the water to go and so I ends up backing up I got displaced. 3 nights in a row every place that work got floated out and it was is insane. It was a truly insane experience but it gives you a lot of insight into how the water works in Louisiana it gives you a lot of insight into what everybody's dealing with with um. 14:40.30 archpodnet Wow. 14:57.90 Christine You know, trying to get their their lives back on track with the assistance of fema or with their insurance because you know now I've I've had to deal with that. So it gives you a lot of empathy for what people are dealing with so if I can take something off their plate which is what our office does or we attempt to. 15:10.71 Alex If you. 15:16.64 Christine Um, we work with fema and all these families to help get their loved ones recovered and then knowing that we were in a new storm season. We got them all safe and mobile So if a storm does happen to hit us in the next couple of months and I'm gonna knock on what there. Um. 15:34.54 Alex Um, if you use it. 15:36.44 Christine Then we can get them out and get them to safety and they won't be displaced by ah, another storm that was really important to Us. We wanted to make sure that people weren't have to worry that this was gonna happen again this year I'm not saying It's never gonna happen again. It probably will and but not. This year until we get them reinterred. So um, we got that all worked out so we're moving into the next phases of of all this um, identification work and trying to get people's loved ones put back where they should be so. 16:08.96 archpodnet And in terms of rein internment. Are you guys like an advisor or how how do we solve these problems with cemeteries human remains coming out from the ground. You know I know it happens in Washington as well. How? what's like the the best solution. 16:32.20 Christine Well then other states are having to grapple with this as well. I know that you know with the recent dry spells in some states and then getting this tremendous amount of water graves are eroding out in places that they don't usually come out of um. Every situation. All I can say is really every situation is unique is there is no one says fits all answer unfortunately but um and so in Louisiana our best recommendation is put them underground put them underground as under as much dirt as possible and they don't come up from. Beneath the ground now saying all that with the greatest salt that I just said that things are eroding out in other states but generally speaking that helps get on below ground but that's ah, it's a it's a simple answer to a complex issue of. Who's got the money to do it well in these cases. A lot of times. Ah families can't afford it. They're getting fema assistance to do this and fema allows for that under their individual assistance guidelines. But um, fema doesn't like to mitigate necessarily so they want things back to where they were well if they're back to where they were. And next storm we're just gonna be doing this again and so and we have examples of that of poor family member. We talked to after Laura that was the third storm her Grandma had been injected from her grave in it was right after so after Katrina Rita hit 18:01.98 Christine And Cameron parish then they had Ike and then they had Laura Delta and every time her grandma came up and she was I'm done with this I got it better. Do something different and so um, you know who is going to pay for it. That's a really. Tough thing and so if there is no money for mitigation and fixing some of these issues. We're just going to keep doing it over and over again. Um, so I think that's ah, that's an area that everything needs to kind of a fall around with that in mind. But sometimes you're you're caught in a in a loop. For a while that you can't see your way out of and I think that's definitely something We're always looking for an answer to but it's it's just unfortunately not that simple. 18:52.31 Alex Yeah, and like Christine said for us in Washington every case is is very unique, but 1 of the kind of very unifying things for us and again echoing Christine um is erosion is a massive problem. Um. There's a tremendous There's a huge population living um in the puget sound area in the state of Washington right? Massive ah population centers. Lots of building um increased storm activity um due to changing climates. Um, by. I only foresee my job getting more hectic as these things as we keep encroaching our coastal environments and as we keep um and as you know as the as storm seasons potentially get worse and worse. So you know we're we're seeing similar things here as well. Um, my work is much more individually based ah typically it's you know a single interment um less large scale cemetery work like that. Um, thankfully because we already have enough on our plate. 20:03.74 archpodnet And I think on that note, um, we are going to end this segment. Um and we will catch you in the next one