00:00.40 Jesus of Nayarit Welcome back to episode one Twenty nine of a life nerds podcast. We're here with our friend Matt Stern um and your career obviously has been fascinating I'm sitting here fascinated the whole time. Ah, but we haven't even gotten into the nitty-gritty of like what you currently do and I think that stuff is. You and I talked about this in the field. It is kind of like the future of archeology. So um, yeah, just go ham man. 00:20.58 Matt Stirn Um. 00:26.10 Matt Stirn Yeah, absolutely so um, in in addition to being a researcher I I currently work as a photojournalist and to be honest I've actually found myself doing more of that lately than than my own work. Um, and so probably like five or six years ago was feeling a little dreary about the state of archaeological academia just like information like people were doing such amazing work all over the place and even though when they publish like even when we publish in huge journals I mean the information gets out there but it only goes so far. Um. And I noticed there was a lack of kind of public awareness too of what archaeologists did I mean again, people were pouring their their lives and careers into just brilliant work and it was so depressing to me that like nobody had heard of it. Um, and meanwhile you're seeing others feel. Yeah, seeing other sciences like biology I mean things like paleontology especially that are in the news in National Geographic and scientific america in The New York Times like every other day and archeology is but just not that much. Um. 01:24.44 Jesus of Nayarit Well. 01:30.66 Matt Stirn And so I've always been ah a keen photographer and I've always had an interest in in being a journalist but I never knew that that's where my career would would lead and while we were doing a lot of these projects in the winds and occasionally when I would get to go on an international trip and I'd constantly take pictures and just give them to the ah the researchers to use. And so every every once in a while one of those projects would get pressed. They'd get a story in Usa today or something like that and I noticed from the I was getting really good feedback from the editors like you should basically saying they would love to know the next project I'm going on because they they'd want to to buy pictures and I kind of. 01:54.15 Jesus of Nayarit M. 02:09.69 Matt Stirn Turned on a light in my head like maybe maybe I can help um I could I could help be part of a solution to this issue that had just been nagging at me I have great connections in the archeological world. Um, ah college taught me to. 02:26.68 Matt Stirn To write worth something. Maybe not the best writer in the world but I can I can write a decent paper and I can take good photographs and so I I kind of blindly not blindly, but kind of tried to make a career shift by trying to cover other people's projects rather than doing my own. And so I went to people I knew I went to archaeologists I'd worked with um, rich in the winds I went to archeologists I'd worked with in Europe and just said hey can I come join you for a season I'll do some field work if you need me but I want to I want to cover it like a journalist. And after the first few experiments. Um I had a handful of feature stories run in archaeology magazine um, a few years later I was able to go on an assignment to Sudan for Smithsonian Magazine or I've done a couple features for um, actually today I I just sent off. Um. My my newest story which is about the site in Greece to the New York Times um and so it's kind of been this this really amazing opportunity to be able to help share the the work of other people and and that honestly to me has been more fulfilling than. Publishing in a journal or or writing a book chapter just kind of getting getting to help get this work out into the world. It's been really neat and yeah, we kind of talked about that too. I mean there's a lot of I agree that there's. 03:45.58 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah, um. 03:53.61 Matt Stirn There's kind of 2 aspects to to publishing archeology as as David and I talked around the campfire at la perrell like the traditional one is is academic and that's obviously important because you need to get stuff. Peer reviewed. You can make sure it's it's good and responsible work and it needs to be spread around the the archaeological community. But I think there's there's definitely a lack in. 04:04.10 Jesus of Nayarit And. 04:12.70 Matt Stirn Um, recognizing the importance of of getting your research out into the general world as well. 04:17.89 archpodnet Yeah I would I would say and we've we've talked recently in our past couple episodes about how we cover archeology how it is covered in the press and having it come written photographed from an archeologist is refreshing. 04:18.58 Jesus of Nayarit Close. Yeah. 04:35.59 archpodnet Because everything is very sensationalized. You know like lost City old is the Buth Blah Blah blah and it and it it really doesn't do justice to what we are doing in archeology What we're studying and the nuance to its. 04:36.70 Jesus of Nayarit Clean. 04:38.21 Matt Stirn Um, yeah, totally. 04:47.90 Matt Stirn But the number of times I have to fight to to takes a perlados out of a headline because oftentimes I like I'll write the tech but I don't get to choose the headline that whatever news agency runs with and so they'll send me a couple samples and it'll be exactly that like. 04:57.36 Jesus of Nayarit Oh no. 05:03.31 Matt Stirn The most exciting oldest newest thing That's never been discovered before like I like whoa Ho Whoa. Let's let's turn that down a little bit there hoss. But yeah I think I agree like the more archeologists that that can have a role in doing that I mean. 05:09.22 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 05:09.32 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 05:17.18 Matt Stirn Podcasts like this are a great example I mean all the the work that David you do is is a brilliant example of of how to do that? Yeah yeah, seriously I mean reaching reaching more audiences and it's crazy the way that um, that social media is is totally taking over. 05:24.41 Jesus of Nayarit Thanks man means a lot from you. Um. 05:37.11 Matt Stirn Um, like we a couple years ago I I did ah a course where I was working alongside the previous editor of sports illustrated magazine and he said that on a really really good year. 1 of their issues might reach something like. 05:53.86 Matt Stirn 2 to 3000000 people and that was like exceptional but you look at the power that um social media has like I saw one of your one of your reals about archeology reached 1000000 people like with that single post you reach half of what the. 06:05.43 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 06:10.49 Matt Stirn Sports Illustrated Subscriber base was which is just astronomical. 06:14.69 Jesus of Nayarit That is wild to think about it that way. Um, yeah, it's nuts and like talking with Bob about it too like his book can only get to so many people and like we've probably. Advertised his book more times and he sold it like on like on here and it's just like an odd thing to think about all that work goes into it but like um yeah it it is. It's a lot of responsibility too and obviously like with you with the taglines and the headlines like you like I don't want it to look. 06:27.21 Matt Stirn I. 06:45.15 Jesus of Nayarit Like you don't want your peers to think like less of you because of like you know a sensational headline. 06:46.61 Matt Stirn But but it's a fine line because if it's if it's totally academic then nobody's going to read it and so like there's this really fine line of hooking people to get them interested in keeping it it interesting for the non-areologists but also. Being responsible to tell the story and in like a legitimate way and that's where I think like photography and video comes in because you can you can hit him with some really cool visuals that that make people interested in the topic and then secretly feed them all the facts that they didn't know they wanted. 07:06.22 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 07:18.50 Jesus of Nayarit I Noticed that when you got there this summer too like it was cool to me because it's like man I get exclusive access to like the coolest clovis light in the country and like just filming and stuff like that. But I know. 07:25.39 Matt Stirn Fine. 07:33.80 Jesus of Nayarit How the digging works there like I've worked there before how that and I knew exactly what to film and like as soon as you got there too I saw you like you knew how to walk around the site. What to take pictures of and I was like yeah this like we need more of this. It was cool to me. 07:38.56 Matt Stirn Um. 07:47.37 archpodnet Yeah, it seems like that I was going to say I was gonna say it's like the nuances of navigating an archeology site or the nuances of archeology in context of greater research is the stuff that I feel like we we really miss when other people write the story. You know. 07:49.36 Matt Stirn Um, that's I'll go for kind of. 08:04.34 Jesus of Nayarit More. 08:06.48 archpodnet There's a lot of that out there. 08:06.83 Matt Stirn Yeah, exactly and it's hard I mean it's especially hard for for people in like the academic world to do because it's silly to me that you get um, basically you get kudos from the department or whatever for publishing in a journal. But if you were to write. And equivalent story in national geographic magazine you might get like a quick thumbs up, but it wouldn't really do much for your for your career and that's always been a little wild to me. But um I mean again, things things are always changing and evolving and in the field of archaeology. So maybe that'll that'll um, Morph one of these days. 08:26.68 Jesus of Nayarit Shit. 08:39.89 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah, it that is interesting like how it and like knowing what to like so I have the Ted-ed thing that I wrote and I consulted with Pbs Eons and it's like. 08:50.66 Matt Stirn Um, me. 08:53.90 Jesus of Nayarit Putting that on my Cv. It's like where does that fall. It's not research I guess it's like publication. But it's not. It's like media and then it's this weird time of like how do we advertise ourselves and stuff too. It sounds like you've been doing a great job with it. 09:05.27 Matt Stirn Yeah, and that's tricky too like I basically had to I basically had to split like god not just my career but like how I present myself into 2 different people depending on if i'm. Trying to apply to work on an archeological site versus trying to cover an archeological site because what they're interested in is is as you said 2 absolutely different things. 09:26.88 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 09:28.57 archpodnet Yeah, and it's painful for me that there's they have as as I think rich or someone else who had coined is that they they have bean counters you know within academia to see like you're worth. And yeah, none of those things count none of none of the. 09:43.27 Matt Stirn Um. 09:46.28 archpodnet Public Presentations Any of these things that are really actually going out and reaching people really factor into any sort of academic or anything like going forward. 09:53.37 Matt Stirn Yeah, exactly. But and even if that doesn't help you with your your career. The kind of the fulfillment of getting a happy email from an archeologist that you you covered their work is just the best thing in the entire world. Um, the other side. It's most terrifying thing in the world waiting for an archaeologist waiting for the whoever was the project director to email you after the stoking comes out because like I just sit there sweating until I hear a response from them like oh god I really hope I didn't mess something up. It is tricky too because like in other countries like Greece and italy. Um. Because like the the sites are owned essentially by the the government the and the antiquity service. Um, there's a lot of restrictions on what you can and can't photograph and can and can't talk about um and so that it's always really nerve-wracking because like the last thing you want to do as ah, a photographer a journalist is. Get somebody in trouble with their research permit just because you you wanted to publish like a pretty picture of their work and so it's like there is a whole new set of boundaries that I had to learn to or not boundaries but rules that I had to learn to navigate as a a journalist in addition to being an archeologist. 11:04.48 Jesus of Nayarit Oh yeah, and that that plays into that like we're anthropologists too. So it's a whole new culture. You have to learn um and like I've noticed that with doing this kind of stuff and stand up actually too. It's like you got to. 11:11.79 Matt Stirn Um. 11:17.12 Matt Stirn Um, how nice. 11:18.30 Jesus of Nayarit Ingratiate yourself to the the guy who runs the club you got to like say hi to the people that are at the club and you can see them go shake hands with the guy. So. It's like okay if this is primate behavior here's how I would function but like navigating a new field too like you were telling me about like having the boilerplate statement that you send to people about like idea like. All stuff I have no idea and there's no school for that. Um. 11:39.54 Matt Stirn Yeah, and that being said though I like I because I I talk and I work with a lot of other journalists who work in in different fields like conservation or sports or different things like that and I've learned that archeology Education. Has really helped me get a leg up and a different career as a Journalist I mean so it's a career that's related but the skill sets of I mean everything down to like doing budgeting to running a project to having to write a grant proposal to having to write a report about what you did. Those are all things that I have to do as a journalist that oftentimes they don't necessarily teach if you go to like Journalism school and so at the time I didn't realize it but what I was learning in my archeology degree really set me up to to succeed in in this field that I didn't know I would be in. 12:17.79 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah. 12:29.12 archpodnet So so it's it's easier for you to learn Journalism and like from a non-academic setting than it is to learn the archeology like you've okay this is. 12:41.92 Jesus of Nayarit Yeah, like scientist wheres journalist after kind of thing. Yeah I think other people try to do it from the other way like you try to go into for sure like people just want to be Youtubers or they want to be journalists and like they don't have a niche. 12:41.97 Matt Stirn Um, yeah, probably yeah, um. 12:53.80 Matt Stirn Um, yeah, yeah. 12:59.90 Jesus of Nayarit Um, but like you and I and Connor have gone and our literal scientists with degrees and then can do things like this and I think that's probably a better route to go. 13:05.30 Matt Stirn Um, yeah, absolutely. 13:08.90 archpodnet I mean that's like the Carl Sagans of the world. the the Neil Degrasse tysons you know being and and and learning yeah like you said, if if you have to tell like because you have you've had like first graders you've had like elementary school kids. Do you kind of have to explain archeology to so if you can. 13:25.14 Matt Stirn Um, me. 13:27.76 archpodnet If you can have that conversation there you can bring that up to another level to adults who are interested in this and and really explain things Well which is it's a great skill and absolutely. 13:36.91 Matt Stirn Yeah, absolutely yep and then you yeah 1 thing is yet you explain the text and the next the really tricky part is actually photographing in an archeological site because photographing a hunter gatherer excavation especially there's not a lot to see there are a lot of did like. 13:37.94 Jesus of Nayarit Um, yeah. 13:56.40 Matt Stirn Lot of different things once a magazine publishes at once I mean you're looking at people screening in Square units pulling out chipstone I mean that's the meat of it and so it's interesting like how do you photograph a story and make it entirely unique and special to that particular site while doing something different that. 14:06.85 Jesus of Nayarit Um, okay. 14:15.12 Matt Stirn Like something that's not everybody else has done in in the past and it's always kind of a um, a little bit of an obstacle that you have to navigate. 14:22.20 Jesus of Nayarit That is tough especially like when people don't understand what a flake is in a picture like it just looks like dirt. 14:28.87 Matt Stirn Um, yep. 14:30.67 archpodnet Well if you have like monumental architecture or something like that like those those pictures go Well, you know you. 14:36.25 Matt Stirn Yeah, exactly if you can if you can put lights and flashes on a pyramid that'll battlement people excited all the time but it's fun when we were at lapro The Archaeology Magazine story they'll come out. We played around with lighting I always dived in the the trailer that was out there lighting mammoth ivory and. 14:40.76 archpodnet Yet. 14:42.24 Jesus of Nayarit Um, breath. 14:54.45 Matt Stirn Um, Bison and Tickwis Mandibles and things like that and so we'll we'll see if editors like those are not. 15:00.96 Jesus of Nayarit Awesome! Yeah, um, yeah, you go. 15:03.67 archpodnet I have I was just gonna say have a final question so you obviously have a unique career path in archeology anthropology being a journalist. What would you tell a young person undergrad high schooler um about. 15:05.27 Matt Stirn Yeah, and. 15:21.60 archpodnet If they're interested in archeology if they're interested in in Journalism. What would you tell them what kind of advice would you give them at this point. Yeah. 15:27.47 Matt Stirn Um I think um as we kind of talked about earlier I would say don't pigeonhole yourself. Um I think I mean again, like if you have an interest and you know that's that's your jam like you're just obsessed and fascinated with one topic by all means do it, you'll you'll be brilliant. You'll be great at it. But. Think a lot of students don't know and and that's totally fine and there's a lot of pressure to kind of figure out what you want your specialty to be especially in archeology. Um, and I think one of the greatest things I did was not necessarily do that doesn't mean like you you can't. Do that and not have your hands in any projects. Um, but I I think some of the best advice is just explore and experiment in in all the aspects of archeology that you can. And then figure out what what interests you most because that's that's really what you're going to be good at and that's what you're going to have the passion to to pursue and write a 300 page report about and sit in the rain and the dust and work on. Um, but again if it. If you have other skillsets in your life like I noticed I had a knack for photography even though that's not something traditionally utilized in archaeology I experimented to see if it would work and it did and so everybody has different backgrounds and different things that they do outside of school and I think. 16:47.72 Matt Stirn If there's a way that you can integrate that into the the research you do or the work you do it'll it'll surprise everybody and it'll be awesome. 16:56.50 Jesus of Nayarit I Think that's an excellent answer man. Um, you guys go way back I'll have you can and you can ask the question connor. 16:57.99 archpodnet And death. 17:06.55 archpodnet Ah, so first off, do you have anything that you would recommend for folks to read. Um, obviously there'll be links to your your paper. Um and and kind of some of your work as part of the show notes. But do you have anything else. You would recommend as ah. For someone to read who's interested in either mountain archeology or you know all the things that you do. 17:27.83 Matt Stirn Um, yeah, um, actually if I have something for people to watch and it's M1920 s documentary called grass a nation fights versus a for survival I think that's the whole title. And for anybody interested in history the mountains or archeology that was single handedly. The most transformative thing I've seen and it's marion cooper who did um, King Kong did this documentary about a a nomadic tribe in the mountains in Iran and if you want if you if you think you know anything about anthropology or what. Ancient people did in the mountains this will change your world. It's it's absolutely incredible. That's it. 18:03.88 Jesus of Nayarit Is it a nation's battle for life. Okay, cool I just looked that up to you. 18:11.80 archpodnet Yeah, rich showed it in our class and found like ah, an original copy or however he found it and yeah, it actually hurt my brain like physically hurt. 18:18.83 Matt Stirn Um, yep, it's phenomenal. 18:20.11 Jesus of Nayarit Cool I've never seen that I'll check it out. 18:24.31 Matt Stirn Yeah, know and um, yeah, anyways, yeah, it's it's cool. That's great. 18:29.95 Jesus of Nayarit Okay, ah, Connor oh right, right? right? right? back it up Chris a episode. Ah you guys can follow us on social media. Oh wait. No and the no bra one hang on back it up again. Sorry Rachel 1 2 3 18:31.56 archpodnet Do you want a social media real quick. 18:45.78 Jesus of Nayarit Matt ah, where can people find you on the socials or on the internet or you know and just in general. 18:49.82 Matt Stirn Yeah, the the best way is probably my Instagram just at Mat Stern M A T T S T I r n um and or or my website mattsternhoto.com that's kind of where I'm I'm posting in in keeping people up with what I'm doing. 19:04.17 Jesus of Nayarit Okay, awesome. We'll put that in the show notes. 19:04.48 archpodnet Awesome and because we are Kony Podcast we have to ask you a very important question so Matt would you choose if you had to had to do it all over again. Would you still choose to live a life in ruins. 19:18.41 Matt Stirn Absolutely I wouldn't choose anything else. 19:22.60 Jesus of Nayarit Oh that's the answer. We usually get. 19:23.25 archpodnet Awesome! Awesome! Yeah, thank you Thank you for coming on. 19:28.74 Matt Stirn Um, have you have you ever had me but like I'm done. 19:32.66 Jesus of Nayarit I think 2 or 3 people were like no and it it was a firm quick. No um. 19:40.69 archpodnet Um, yeah, so we just interviewed Matt Stern you can find him at at you can find him at you can find him on Instagram at Matt Stern and on his website is it Matt Stern photography or Matt Stern photo cool 19:54.49 Matt Stirn Matt Stern photo 19:58.21 archpodnet Yeah, you can fight him there. 20:01.49 Jesus of Nayarit Ah, guys, please be sure to rate and review the podcast and know you ask you every week but I'm going to ask you again. Just press pause. You don't have to pause you can like s scrollt like flip the thing down go to where it says review you can give us 5 stars on Spotify or on Apple you can even write us a review. You could even just put the word the and it would help the algorithm so you could just do that Ah thank you. 20:24.97 archpodnet And with that we are out. 20:31.68 Matt Stirn My. 20:32.96 Jesus of Nayarit Um, ah Connor do you have a ah joke for Matt. 20:35.52 archpodnet I do and I know that because he's good friends with rich Adams he will least semi appreciate that because that is a large a large portion of his humor did you did you all hear about the the cheese that started working out. 20:41.73 Matt Stirn With your. 20:52.92 archpodnet It's shredded. 20:54.47 Matt Stirn Excellent, all done. 20:55.39 Jesus of Nayarit Oh man as good all right? Well yeah, this has been ah our interview with Matt Stern yeah thank you? ah. 21:03.23 Matt Stirn Um, yeah, this is awesome guys. Thank you so much.