00:00.71 connor Welcome back to episode one thirty three of a life and ruins podcast we are with Josh um, and we wanted to dive in this segment we wanted to like dive into the specifics of what you kind of found your correlation between um. 00:14.53 Josh Wolford Um. 00:16.55 connor Oral history and geologic events. Do you mind diving in there. Let let us know what you kind of correlated through your research. 00:24.70 Josh Wolford Yeah, absolutely. Um so like some examples of like placesing narratives that I have that I in my research for shake the earth was ah so the creation story according to a niavic tradition which can include a variety of details. Depending on the context of recounting something that's called arasokak which are sacred living stories or stories of the grandfathers depending on how you um, translate that word. It's actually out of sokan is singular and a so kaak is plural but ariso kaak is an animate gender of the word for stories. Exists in sacred context and are treated as living non-human persons. The act of telling such sacred living ancestral memories can be elaborated upon or made more concise depending on the situation you know and the teller so it so changes a little bit um, depending on the situation or who's telling the story. But. The most ubiquitous version of an Aris Soan a so canak that I focused on was the story of creation that involves a creation destruction recreation sequence first the universe came into existence from the inspiration that a dream the creator had get humanityou and. That was before time even began where they saw everything that is and they created the universe. Um and after the creation there was a destruction through the form of a flood and in the the long form of the story. It was from Nana Bojo who was like the. 01:58.64 Josh Wolford Ancestral embodiment of anishnaic culture along with main gun who's the wolf they went to go kill oh a manitou called Mishapesh which is the great lyns who controls all the water in in. Not just the great lakes. But and just you know inland lakes things like that and Mr Pes you lived in the caves underneath Mac Andina so they went there to go kill him but they only succeeded in cutting off his tail hence's why links have short tail. Um, but they didn't kill him because his body's covered in. Copper and silver nuggets. So he's also like a patron man as you have copper from like ale royal in places like that. Um, and in his anger. Mr. Peschu flooded the earth in retaliation killing pretty much all life and it was you know after that flood that we have the. For those who weren't familiar with this creation story. It's been you know publicized in like children's books and stuff like that where there's the great flood and then it was a great turtle who rose out of the water that offers back for all the animals that survived and it kind of depends on the story that you look for. But. Um, it involves the animals trying to dive down to the bottom of the water to grab a piece of soil to create land on the back of the great turtle and it's from the turtle's back serving as the nucleus point for where the earth was reborn and according to anishiave. 03:33.40 Josh Wolford Oral traditions that is Mac Andinaw Island and the word Mac Andina all that we have today is just a shortened version of the whole word which is bitchu muunookal which means place of the great turtle and they refer to the whole region as the place of the great turtle and because of that notion that. Land started there or restarted there and it regrew from there because in the in the oral tradition they say that the waters receded and the land rose and we talked a little bit about isostatic rebound earlier and that's where the land literally rose. That we can measure. But then also the waters ended up receding away because at Eleven Thousand years ago there there was a time period where the glacier lake phase is called ah the algonquin phase in the early phase was two hundred and thirty feet higher than Modern Lake levels in the stretch of macinaw region. Would have a period is a very flooded place compared to today. But then ah through that's because the water was blocked from escaping further north to filling the lake superior basin and also to drain out into like whatd is now Georgian Bay it was blocked buy that ice but then as years went on the climate started to warm even more the ice moved further north opening more avenues for the water to fill in and basins to fill in but then also the land began to rise because of that you know 2 factor of ice disappearing and land rising. There was. 05:08.40 Josh Wolford An event where the water drained out at this. It's called north channel it's Georgian Bay so there's Lake Huron and then on the north part of Lake Island's Georgian Bay and it drained across I think the madowwa river and Ottawa river into St Lawrence into the ocean and so it dropped from. Two hundred and thirty feet higher than Modern Lake levels to one hundred and fifty feet lower than modern lake levels and only a matter of like few hundred years and so to people that were there. It's like almost like someone pulled a plug on all that water and it disappeared. 05:42.90 archpodnet Right. 05:45.40 Josh Wolford And so you would have been able to walk from the lower peninsula to Macan Island at that time and there was only a mere river that went around the north side of the island and that is ah that River Valley was discovered in the 1920 s you know, like that the article I used to cite that part of my paper was literally written by. Dr. Stanley it's called the Stanley phase of the glaci lake algonquin and it was actually during that time when Lake Huron was split to 2 lakes 3 lakes depending on the source you look at or what time period it is but there was this ithsmus of land that went from elpna Michigan to Ambrella Ontario and there were some archeologists at university of Michigan in 2009 that were looking at bitthymmetry maps of Lake Huron and this ilpena Amberly Ridge or they call it the hundred fathom shoal for for shippers for people on like the freighters and stuff and. They were looking on that to find. Maybe there's some you know paleo ah habitation sites and they didn't find habitation sites but they found what they believe is a caribou hunting corral. That's nine Thousand years old that's at the bottom of Lake Huron because but I think it was. During the that's the algonquin stage then the the pissing stage just after the algonquin was when the water rose back up I think it was like I don't know my into pissing geology as much as the algonquin phase I focused a little bit more on that. But I think it was like 50 60 seventy feet higher than Modern Lake levels um 07:22.31 Josh Wolford Maybe more sure. Maybe there's someone out there listening to us that that knows you know then to pissing shoreline elevation levels. But um, so all yes. 07:29.65 archpodnet I have 2 comments real quick because like this is fascinating. It's been really hard for me to find us point to like stop you because everything you keep saying is just great but I like 2 things 1 What is it what is it royal island what was that called aisle royal so there's a student and that. 07:39.44 Josh Wolford Um, for sure Ale Royal So that's. 07:46.15 archpodnet My department I u who's out of Michigan who works up there and I recently found out that has the oldest evidence of copper mining and metallurgy in the fucking world. Not just the United States the world that place is like nuts for mining copper and doing cool stuff out there. So like 1 little fun fact with that. 07:54.39 Josh Wolford In the world in World. Yes. Um, in. 08:05.78 archpodnet 2 little bit of a rent the turtle island shit I mean it's not shit. Let me chrisp pull cut that off so the turtle the the turtle island thing. So lakotas I think are now the largest recognized tribe now by population. They beat out the denay but the. 08:14.00 Josh Wolford Um, yes. 08:25.16 archpodnet Um, ah a syineinabi I can never say that word in Niinae are now like 6 largest but like all those groups that come out of the council of the 7 fires or 4 fire fires like potawatomies. There's this whole macro cultural linguistic group that are all related that. 08:27.32 Josh Wolford Initial Abi. 08:43.17 archpodnet Come out of the great lakes are also some of the more larger tribes by population nations today by population and so like a lot and they're very active and this turtle island narrative for everyone like now like oh so you you know land back or you know, um. 08:44.26 Josh Wolford Um, man in her. 08:46.75 Josh Wolford Are. 09:00.27 Josh Wolford Um. 09:00.40 archpodnet Totally agree with what I'm saying is is like this whole. Um you know like saved turtle island thing or when people ask me specifically about well talk about turtle island I'm like I'm not. 1 of these god Damnn people like no, we don't believe in this turtle narrative. That's a very specific thing that just at a happenstance out of colonization that their narrative is like everywhere. No, we don't have turtles like what are you talking about up from the great plains. You think there's water out there. We have rivers. We don't have lakes. 09:14.94 Josh Wolford Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 09:27.60 Josh Wolford Um, yeah, yeah, that's from. 09:28.87 archpodnet And if you have a problem with that email jreid at pownyation.org and you just send all those that hate over over there. Let let Matt deal with that and I sure that that his yeah, he'll deal with it. But anyways just like side tangent. 09:34.10 connor Nay. 09:41.12 Josh Wolford But oh that's fine because like well it sometimes I feel like people and you probably deal with this is that sometimes people will think of as native american cultures this monolithic ubiquitous um thing. There's hundreds I have a map behind me. That's my that's one of the old natural geographic maps that you'd get and the insert That's all the languages language families. It's like there's so many different kinds of cultures or different cultures on just North America 10:07.36 archpodnet Yeah, does so does your map show The Lakota's out in the great plains. 10:15.35 Josh Wolford Um, um, let's see the pawine. The great plains. Yeah I don't see the Lak Hota um maybe or blind. 10:17.11 archpodnet But as they should be. 10:24.43 archpodnet Are they are they by the great lakes is that map right? because there's 2 kinds of maps. You'll find you'll find like language maps that are based on like nineteenth century where people were and then you'll find like ones from based on like sixteenth century where people generally are placed before displacement of colonization. So I always go that route. 10:33.40 Josh Wolford Um, yeah, yeah. 10:40.80 Josh Wolford Yeah, it's it's difficult like I don't really like when I put maps in my paper. It's like I don't like any map I find because it's like well they all move. They're all these are all mobile people and they don't stay like. 10:43.66 archpodnet And up. 10:58.67 Josh Wolford So Lake Hurons called Lake Huron because that's where when the french came and discovered it. That's where the huron were living because they were displaced by the iroquois and they were living. They weren't from there. They moved there. They were like refugees essentially. 11:05.46 archpodnet Yeah. 11:12.00 connor Yeah, it it. 11:12.23 archpodnet I I always go with the map that shows the Pony nation having the largest territory possible. So that's that's that's my go to is like okay where's the largest landmass map. That's the one that I'm throwing anywhere. Yeah, so that's it. 11:17.54 Josh Wolford Um, oh yes, it. 11:23.11 connor Not and not showing the lakota later which which you which you you, you kindly refer to as the invaders. 11:25.76 Josh Wolford Yeah. 11:29.93 archpodnet Oh yeah, the the great the great su invasion. Yeah yes I like to remind people that lakotas and cheyens and Raposs aren't from the planes originally like I always have to throw that in somewhere like they're not planes people they're from the great lakes. 11:30.44 Josh Wolford The invaders the the that's the thing with like. 11:44.88 Josh Wolford Um, up. 11:44.91 connor Yeah way way way 8 11:49.11 archpodnet Get back across the Missouri river please that's where you belong now I shouldn't say there go get cancelling. 11:59.43 Josh Wolford Ah, yeah, but no I agree. It's like there's specific narratives for like turtle. You know the turtle and it's like Macainaw Island is like the turtle island and a lot of times people refer to. All of North America as Turtle Island it's like well I don't know if everyone believes that and all the different stories that are out there. You know like the hopi they like you know isn't like the ant people and they came up from like below. Yeah. 12:24.30 archpodnet Yeah, you generally are going to find star people and then. 12:30.10 Josh Wolford Which that's also an an initialnotic culture which is you know to get get into like the the creation story the version I like to tell on my tour was that it was lochemous or you can call her skyoman as well. She fell through the hole in the sky to the back of the great turtle. And the hole in the sky is the pleadedes which is pretty interesting I always thought um it is piketa gijek in inniinae and that that's also um, which in a ceremony called the shaking tent ceremony the achicq and ah that tent. That they use mimics the pleiades because they use so depends on I've I've read some sources that say that it uses 7 poles like there are 7 stars in the pleiades to mimic the pigata geejik as like this conduit for channeling the spirits. Into his tenth. Sorry. 13:28.51 archpodnet See Now you're gonna get me on another now This is actually on a rant This is like this is actually contributing archeologically to this conversation in a meaningful way. Um, so we see yes sorry so the the plea is is a major ah star assemblage. 13:34.47 connor Thanks Thanks for doing that. 13:41.86 Josh Wolford Are eleven. Yeah. 13:45.67 archpodnet Some whatever you want to call that cosmologic thing that the pawnies um and that'll ah gravitate towards its part of we have stories about it but like I know it's also big at cahokia and and there are Cahokian outposts just south of the great lakes. 13:56.85 Josh Wolford Method. 14:04.77 archpodnet And so when I see when I hear the the the pleiades being like a major component or someone being associated specifically with the pleiades like ah usually it's like 1 or 2 people like these star people but there there seems to be this connection I think back to cookia with you know because the coia was a multicultural multi. 14:23.10 Josh Wolford Um, oh yeah, it was a metropolis. That's you know? yeah. 14:24.15 archpodnet Ethnic empire it was I mean it was like a state I mean hell I mean it. It's you know it had so much interactions to everywhere that I'm always curious like the vestiges of cohokia coming across in different societies across the great lakes the great plains and eastern woodlands you know outside the Missouri river Ohio river. 14:39.41 Josh Wolford Um, oh yeah. 14:42.94 archpodnet Mississippi like they had reach I don't know that's just when you were talking about the pletiess and the star woman comes to me like I I bet my ass that there's a kohokeian connection either directly or indirectly of of that of that. But you know whatever. 14:46.92 Josh Wolford Um, yeah, it could. 14:59.26 archpodnet This isn't an academic podcast So don't cite this. 15:00.50 Josh Wolford Oh well, it's it's all good. The I mean there are um, there's mounds in Grand Rapids right along the grand river that would be probably yeah, they're they're in Michigan there's even some a bit further north in the central mitten. Um, they're like. 15:06.42 archpodnet So I'll see there. We go. 15:17.65 Josh Wolford Kind of like hinge like Nott Stonehen it's not like mysterious stoneedge fund in Michigan now one of those clicked clickbaty like you articles? Yes, well so as I was talking earlier about like so submerge archeological sites. 15:23.24 archpodnet So yeah, right next to the viking tablets. It's solid. 1 place. 15:34.57 Josh Wolford There's one that they found in grand tra's bay and it's in forty feet of water but it's also probably another caribou hunting structure. But there's also ah a huge rock that has a mastodon carved in it and it's an underwater and that was ah actually on an episode of ancient aliens and of course. 15:51.41 archpodnet I Oh I bet it was. 15:54.42 Josh Wolford Of course they were trying to make it seem like the aliens did it and I'm like no because they're trying to make it like connected with how sea level rise and then obviously look at you know well sea level rise. There's all these like Atlantean states underwater and look at this place in the great lakes aliens had something to do with It's like no man like. Lake Huron lake Michigan when you're standing on the shoreline here. You're five hundred and eighty feet above sea level. The ocean level does not affect the level of the lakes here. 16:22.11 archpodnet Dude, all people need to do is just read introductory textbooks for like intro to geologic sciences intro to archeology like that dispels any of the BS that like Graham Hancock who's now especially big with his Netflix document days on netflix. 16:29.23 Josh Wolford Oh. No, he's on Netflix I haven't watched it I'll probably watch it just to see. Okay. 16:38.50 archpodnet Oh you Don so we're we're going to do a review episode of that we're bringing Jesse Tune and Shane back on. We're all going to watch the first episode the together and take notes and they do one of our little specials where we just you know? yeah, pretty pretty much. Yeah, good dude. Well. 16:47.70 Josh Wolford Mystery Science Theater three thousand it. 16:55.71 archpodnet This was a really fun conversation I'm really glad we were able to get in on the podcast and I this was just fascinating like you did that was a really cool thesis I hope you're able to get in publication. Um and get it yes, sweet man and so um, you know before we end the show Josh what are a couple sources is whose books articles videos that you would recommend for anyone. 17:06.58 Josh Wolford That's the goal. That's the goal. 17:15.49 archpodnet Interested in ethno geoareology and this this Yeah, there's all this one godsip they were talking about. Yeah. 17:22.63 Josh Wolford That's the best way I could describe what my paper is I guess ah, there's so many sources I would love to like I could probably spend a whole other hour talking about there's this and this and this um well I mentioned it earlier. It's called talking rocks ah the full titles talking rocks geology and 10000 years native american tradition in the lake superior region. That's a mouthful It's not an archeology book at all. Um, it's like a conversation between a geologist and an ojibwe elder and kind of like it breaks the ice of that like you know these 2 different philosophical worlds can. 17:55.56 archpodnet And is that a punnd did you just did you just put a geology pun in there on accident. So I can't tell if this was a potential breaking eyes Anyway, sorry didn't me interrupt I just wanted I wanted all of us to acknowledge that this happened so. 17:58.31 Josh Wolford And me probably probably no night well doing a carriage tours. We I. 18:02.81 connor Um, I'm clapping either way. 18:11.66 connor Ah. 18:16.88 Josh Wolford It's a lot of education but it was a lot entertainment as well. Which means a lot of puns came in those tours another book I recommended is ojibwe heritage by Basil Johnston that's a really good book into kind of delving into their cosmology and like the ordering of their universe which is you know. It's really great and and I think essential to kind of understanding um, kind of my big idea and then an archeology paper or rather like anthropological paper. It's the prehistory of the burke bluff area which is about um these rock art sites on Lake Michigan ah where they believe that shamans connued up to these caves and shot arrows at the rocker and they're like the entire artifact assemblage in those caves is like 8083 percent projectile points that were not refinished. All have shattered tips and there's no habitation in these in these sites and it's just purely a sacred site and that kind of like that's one of my fear. That's one of the things that actually got me into anthropology I went to that cave when I was a senior in high school. Yeah. 19:25.34 connor That's sweet. It sounds like that's just the tip of the iceberg with ah literature recommendations though. 19:26.64 archpodnet Hell yeah, how. 19:29.30 Josh Wolford Oh yeah, sorry that's. 19:30.63 archpodnet I here we go good now down the the floodgates have been unleashed with all the damn iceage funds we wart we warned Josh about the shit show that is recording with us how it just could go downhill so quickly that. 19:40.91 connor Ah, all right? Um, so we're ah. 19:45.50 Josh Wolford Um, oh don't worry about it guys. 19:48.62 connor Ah, so where can our listeners find you on social media or email or get in contact with you. 19:52.91 Josh Wolford So you can find an Instagram at jmwolfford so that's my first initial middle initial last name pretty simple and then if you want to like email me you can email me at jmwolfford at EarthJMWolfford51 at Gmail.com have any questions I can send you my thesis I can you know answer questions about you know more things have conversation about it. 20:20.38 connor Yeah, awesome I'm I'm also ah my last name my first and met last name with a number because apparently I'm not the first see John in 23 in the world. Um, so because this is ah a life in ruins we have to ask you a very important question. So if you could do it all over again. 20:31.78 Josh Wolford Ah. 20:38.16 connor Would you still choose to be an ethno geoarchaeologist. 20:41.00 Josh Wolford Yes I don't know if I'd call myself an ethnoge or archeologist. But I definitely am an anthropologist who studies ethnogeoareology. 20:51.10 archpodnet Hell are yeah man. Well we just interviewed Josh Wolfford you could find him on Instagram at JMWolfford and send him an email at J M Wolfford 51 at gmail.com um per usual connor. 21:05.15 connor Right review the podcast please we actually got a ton. We got a ton of them. We got like 8 more reviews since like the last time. So thank you so much keep doing that. That's how we get out into the the world. So thank you? um. 21:06.80 archpodnet Yeah, yes. 21:18.50 archpodnet Jim yeah. 21:20.24 connor If you have any problems with this episode email Carlton um any hate messages from from his slander if you have any biology um any any any problems with my biology hate send it to me. Um, we love interacting with you? Um, yeah, thank you, thank you. 21:28.62 Josh Wolford A. 21:38.00 archpodnet Yes, let me see real quick pull Rachel don't throw this in here I'm gonna see if do we have a review. Um, do we really? okay. 21:38.39 connor All so much. 21:44.74 connor We have one. It says not informative I'm just kidding it. No it there. It was like no its like is like is's like it's worth a. It's worth the listen. 21:49.41 Josh Wolford Not informative. 21:54.25 archpodnet I can't remember the last one. We've listened to Spotify doesn't have review. It doesn't have like actual type text reviews right? That's just let me sorry I don't mean to take up any more time I just want to see if we have a new one since the last one. 22:03.57 connor Yeah, it's ah it's I'll one dude I have a fucking doozy of a joke to okay. 22:12.97 archpodnet I I bet hold on hold on On. Um, it's not loading. Okay, and if you're listening to this show on the all shows feed Please please please subscribe to our individual show a life and ruins podcast having you guys download our show directly from our from our show. Not the all shows feed. Um, allows us to get. Basically we can actually see who's listening to our podcast which allows us to get advertisers and sponsors for the show that help us run the show and produce additional content. The all show feed is considered its own different show and we can't get metrics for that. So. We have a base we know more people are listening and following our show but we can't see that because we can't see those numbers So all shows feed Fantastic place to see all the different shows on the Apn and get a variety. But if you like our show, please subscribe to life and runs. 23:04.99 connor And with that we are out. 23:07.25 archpodnet And. And if you've made it past the credits. You know it is our favorite time of the episode for Connor's witty joke Connor what do you have for me and Josh today. 23:16.63 connor Oh this, It's a doozy so I heard this story on the internet. So This guy like finds himself as a cook on a ship that just like has set off he like. Like a quick survey of the kitchen. You know everything seems right in in the right places? Um, but he finds like several bags of potatoes that are all like shaped like Penises. He's like that's Weird. Ah and he and he goes and asks the captain. He's like hey what's so what's with all the potatoes looking at Peanut. Penises I don't like it can we can we change that the captain says well you can't change it. This is a dictatorship. 23:50.14 archpodnet Oh Jesus god damn it Connor just okay, whoa. 23:54.66 Josh Wolford It. That's a good one that's a good one Dick Tater taters precious whole take more of than master. 24:08.34 connor Did taters precious. Ah. 24:10.14 archpodnet Oh boil and mash him stick of it stew oh god oh god what it's almost thanksgiving so we're about to be doing a lot of that. So all right, everyone and that with Josh once again, thank you so much for being on the show and with that we are truly out. 24:11.30 connor I. 24:13.40 Josh Wolford And us do yes, we will thanks for having me guys.