00:00.00 archpodnet And we're back with life ruin's podcast episode one thirty four here with Dr Jane Lee Thomas so Jane Lee what exactly do you do as the director for the office of the native american graves protection repatriation act or nacbra here at indiana University Bloomington 00:19.40 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um, yeah I I do a lot of a lot of things actually but the main part of my job is um, the compliance aspect of of of the Niagara law and a very large component of that is consulting with the federally recognized tribal nations that have um. Claim to the collections that iu has in here at Ayu Bloomington and when I came to Indiana there had not been a repatriation when I was hired in 2013 and very quickly I learned that. We were not in good shape. Um, obviously having come from Scotland and now I had never been to the midwest before I had a lot of learning to do I started making the same mistakes I feel like a lot of people either did or do I sent out a letter. And I sat around and waited and nothing happened and I thought this is this is not how this should be done. This is not going to get me anywhere and I I like to meet people I don't feel relationships can be built through an email and so I got a car. And with a colleague of mine and and went door to door in Oklahoma and then I came back and I got and went by myself out to Arizona and I got a car and I went door to door to 14 tribes in five days and there was a lot of outreach and that was so incredibly important to me to start building that relationship. 01:46.45 Jayne_Leigh Thomas With the different communities and obviously didn't happen overnight. There was a lot of trust that needed to be built and so with consultation being such a key component of compliance work. The repatriation is still exceptionally important. But there's a. Ton of work that goes um before that and and first of all, you need to have a relationship between a university and a tribal nation work through the plans for reburial and and there's a lot to it. We now. 02:24.27 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Have from what the tribes tell us much better relationships with the Tribes. We completed a very large repatriation last spring 2021 at Angel Mounds and that was a very intense 4 years of work with a pandemic thrown in there. And yeah, so that's the primary role that I have also in charge of Grant writing um a lot of the the legal components of writing the the paperwork that has to go to the federal Register. And then working with the communities um to defer to their wishes as to how the repatriation and then reparial might Happen. So. 03:06.15 archpodnet Okay, and so what does that? What does this whole process entail for for being nagra compliant and actually repatriation because you were the first nagra expert we've ever had on the show and we've talked about nacpro and and plenty of different contexts. 03:16.55 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um. 03:22.13 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yeah. 03:25.65 archpodnet And from many different lenses but actually like someone who's well-versed and and has not only um, but you're also connected outside of like Iu and and in other different organizations as it relates to repatriation work. So like what what is this process like for the for those that. 03:40.10 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um, yeah, sure. 03:45.80 archpodnet Aren't familiar with with the with it. 03:48.82 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Sure I'll kind of give you guys or I'll give you the cliff not version. So um, for those listening who may not be as familiar with nagro. So in Ninety Ninety um nagro was passed and that required all institutions museums. Historical societies police stations anyone that received federal funding in the past it it could be just $1 if you receive federal funding. You have to comply with Niagra after the law was passed the very first thing that needed to be done was summary which was a list. Of unassociated funerary objects sacred objects and objects a culture patrimony that was due to the department of the interior 9093 and the list of your native american ancestor remains and associated funerary objects that list was due to. National nagbra by 9095 that list was supposed to be created in consultation. Um, but. 04:56.99 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Are you still there. 06:02.91 Jayne_Leigh Thomas They are. 06:09.71 Jayne_Leigh Thomas We can start over. It's okay, ah what I can't hear you. 06:17.87 archpodnet I because I muted myself. It's still been going. So it's still clocking So we'll just um, pick you up right? Basically start your cliffnotes whole thing over again and just sorry have to start all over the neck for process all right. 06:18.56 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Oh. 06:27.49 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Okay, that's okay, that's totally fine. So in Ninety Ninety nagpa was passed and that required all institutions that received federal funding and that didn't matter how much money if it was. ยข25 of federal funding. You still had to comply. Um, at that point they needed to create a with their summary information by 9093 that was the deadline to have all that back to the national niagara program. The summary listing includes unassociated funerary objects. Objects a culture of patrimony and sacred objects the list of native american ancestor remains an associated future objects was due 9095 after that point the universities's. But actually during that process they were supposed to start consulting and a lot of times the universities didn't um and even once their inventory and summary information was submitted. Not a lot happened and in the mid 90 s there were several reasons for that there were um, resource issues. Both on museums and tribes the tribes unfortunately were inundated with letters coming in from institutions email wasn't really a thing back then um, and and so no one really had a lot of the resources needed at that time. Not everyone but a lot of folks. 07:56.66 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um, we're reallyriving for resources I would say unfortunately a lot of institutions. Um, also especially in the removal states where the tribes were removed during um the 1800 17 venteen eighteen hundreds and are no longer. Um, for example in Indiana there are over fifty tribes that claim Indiana as homeland but those tribes were removed a lot of those tribes today are in Oklahoma um, a lot of institutions claimed. Well there's no tribes. We don't know who to talk to I guess we'll just keep the collections. I mean and that's being a little sarcastic but not far off from there. Um, there was us other there was at the time a component of cultural affiliation needed to be determined in order to repatriate the universities would say. Oh we can't find affiliation I guess we'll keep the collections and then we'll continue to do research that was a really really big issue obviously and in 2010 the regulations changed slightly to include culturally unidentifiable. And that's ten point eleven in the law and what that says is it doesn't matter if you don't know who to talk to all collections of native american ancestor remains must be repatriated and there's a process built into the law in which. 09:21.86 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Tribes that have aboriginal claim to an area are able to take disposition the problem with that is it privileges tribes that were willing to sign United States government treaties because that's one of their way parts of evidence. It also doesn't make sense because. For example, using Indiana again, there were tribes that passed through Indiana from the East Coast during the removal period. So perhaps they were Indiana only a 50 year period of time before again being pushed further out west towards Oklahoma and. If they are the only signatory of that treaty then they can claim take disposition over a collection. That's 4000 years old but that doesn't make any sense and the tribes will they've communicated with me and said we weren't here. We run the East Coast so it's it's obviously an imperfect law and 1 of the other issues is that when that regulation came in in 2010 on ah the associated funery objects the university um may give them back. It was not a must. And so universities have used that as a tactic to keep the funery items the fancy pots the pipes the effigies. Um, that was an excuse and those of you who follow nagprinews that that's pops up from time to time. Um for us at Indiana. 10:50.55 Jayne_Leigh Thomas When I came here. It was very much this is not negotiable. The funery objects are being returned to me that was like repeat reading someone's grandmother but not grandmother's wedding ring that seemed wrong to do that and so I was very adamant that we were going to be to do that? Um, right now in the Nagra world. There are some new. Proposed regulations which um have their good and bad components I would say um and we can talk a little bit about that later. But um, my job at Indiana is to consult with the communities. That have an affiliation or an aboriginal interest in the collections that we have and work with them consult to find um that affiliation and the work forward to repatriate and then rebury. 11:45.71 archpodnet Okay, that's a daunting daunting task and I can imagine like at so many different levels. You're faced with Bureaucratic B S I can imagine University State Organizations federal organizations but also. Tribe tribal politics like that's that's a pretty intensive position. You have so. How are you supported here at indiana university like do you have a staff. What's the culture like you know by colleagues outside of your. 12:08.85 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yeah. 12:19.77 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um, yep, Absolutely yeah, um, you know it's It's changed slowly since I got here. Um I was hired to. 12:23.47 archpodnet Office and at you know anthro here like um, what's it like. 12:36.97 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Work in the lab side of things as the osteology director and then I was made the director after a few months of the ah the program and that took me out of the lab and into the more administrative role. Um, and through time um through consultation and um. 12:56.68 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Gradually received more trust and more relationship building and more work and ah at the same time and I use side. We've really had a lot of support and now I'm not going to say this officially but I think we're the largest naggra team in the country. We have 6 full-time people that are dedicated only to nacbra compliance work. Um and doing the work in the way that the tribes that I work with wish the work to be done. That's not necessarily the way people might want it done in California or Maine or New York but tribes that I work with have requested that there are certain ways that we move forward to appropriately repatriate? Um I think to be honest with you and I just started my tenth year here there's been such ah a ripple effect and such a positive way. Um, I mentioned you know like you know we didn't start with a good reputation at all and to then turn that around and then to um, really have the relationships that we have today and not only into the compliance side but we're working very closely with tribes on. Ah, research projects publications grant opportunities opportunities for our students for tribal representatives and you know I have such an incredible support system from the upper administration. My staff are amazing. 14:25.29 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Have colleagues at iu and other places that are exceptionally supportive of the work we do and of course the tribes. Um, so patient and so gracious from day one I mean I moved here with a strange scottish accent that nobody could understand what I was saying and you know and. I had never been to the midwest before so I had so much learning to do. They were so patient with me and you know we've been able to um you know have quite a few very successful repatriations. Obviously we have a lot of work to do still but we're getting there one day at a time. 14:59.87 archpodnet It excellent and so nacfer was passed in nineteen ninety s so it's been a little over 30 years. Um, why is it still crucial day shouldn't shouldn't it. 15:06.85 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Hey. 15:12.66 archpodnet Be done like 30 years is that enough time to get everything back. So what's what's going on. Well. 15:15.86 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yeah I you know there are a lot of institutions today that are still dragging their feet thirty years on but there are a lot of institutions as well. That are really doing great compliance work and I think. The universities that are successful if they had started in 1990 with the resources that they have now with the attitudes that they have now if they had started. They would be done by now. But the reality is is they aren't um unfortunately I saw an article today that a university is just getting going thirty two years later um and I think unfortunately that is going to continue to happen, especially um for those institutions that tried to fly under the radar for a very long time that they said well we didn't receive any federal funding. We don't have to comply if anyone took cares act money because of covid. They now have to comply. That's federal funding and so what's going to happen I think in addition to trying to get a lot of the universities to move a lot of smaller universities that heave even less resources. Um are going to be panicking about how. Um, to move forward in a positive way. Unfortunately not as many universities are as supportive as I u is about compliance work and a lot of situations. You have a very large university and that university has very large collections. 16:53.10 Jayne_Leigh Thomas But they will only provide funding for 1 person to do the job and then their halftime tenure track and so that person is forced to do compliance work half the time and. Also work on their tenured dossier and teach classes and it just doesn't work. It just absolutely doesn't work. Um, so when you have an institution that understands that nagpra is not only a legal requirement but an ethical obligation. It is human rights law. That really amazing progress can be made not only to get the ancestors home. But the opportunities that come up working together with the tribes and different projects and different things that I've seen kind of. Um, those relationships started as an ag for discussion and then now other units are starting to create their own relationships and work on different projects and that's been really cool. 17:55.81 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely be um, but like aren't you technically working yourself out of a job once the last ancestor or or funery object grave good is is out of I you what happens? what happens to you. But. 18:09.72 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yeah, um, well I would imagine that there will be somebody else still out of compliance. Unfortunately, um, you know nagra jobs are they pop up all the time and whether you're an archeologist that wants to do work in the field whether you want to work for a Crm firm. A historical society a museum an art museum nagra is everywhere and people that are trained in nagra work are very highly sought after um and so um I mean you never know. I'll end up down the road. But yeah I mean hopefully I mean the idea is that all of the ancestral remains and the cultural items someday will all be home. Um I'm positive. And optimistic that a lot of universities are working in a very positive direction but there are definitely others that are not and so hopefully someday they will also move the correct way. 19:14.54 archpodnet You excellent and so I guess like to to close out this segment. What's the most rewarding part of your job like dealing with all these stresses trying to navigate all these different laws excuse me Chris cut that up. We're gonna redo that whole thing so to close out the segment. 19:25.53 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Okay, okay. 19:34.35 archpodnet Jane ah Jane Lee what's the most rewarding and fulfilling part of your job you deal with so much bureaucracy all these different laws and trying to correct the atrocities of the past in a field that has like deeply colonial roots. What what makes you wake up every day. 19:42.52 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Oh yeah. 19:51.74 archpodnet And wanting to do this and go to work. But. 19:54.11 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yeah I think that there are 2 things for sure. Um, number one is and this again is is a little bit going back to that experience I had in Edinburgh and that i. 20:09.95 Jayne_Leigh Thomas I'm helping in a very small way to um, again going back to also the human rights like I don't feel that human remains should just be sitting on a shelf for a researcher to do whatever they want to do with that isn't a human being. They need to be reburied respectfully treated with respect. Um, and for me, it's such an honor to be part of the process to see those ancestors go home. Um, sometimes I'm invited to be part of the rebuial ceremonies. Sometimes I'm not and either way it's the tribe's wishes. But it's very rewarding to see that that form of justice done and that those those ancestral remains are going back to where they belong. I would say the other exceptionally rewarding part of my job is the people that I get to work with um at iu but also in the tribal communities the work that I've done has I have made such amazing friends across the country and that so much of this is not a job for me anymore. It's not 9 to 5 it. It really isn't and I'm so invested in this because it's the moral and ethical and right thing to do and working with so many people that started off. 21:31.39 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Very upset with me because I represented I you and that there had been at the time a lack of repatriation work and to build that relationship into some very very strong friendships that I have today that's been just absolutely incredible. 21:48.50 archpodnet We all right? And on that note, we're going to go ahead and end this summer we'll be right back with Dr Jane Lee Thomas here for episode 1 3 4 of life from its podcast stay tuned.