00:00.85 archpodnet And welcome back. We're still here with Dr Jane Lee Thomas and so this you mentioned this in the last segment about Naa upcoming nagpa regulations and it's been ah a buzz now in the archaeological community for a little bit within the society for american archeology. Um, natpo and like a couple other places where some of these changes that are being made. Um, have are going to have some ah some rippling effects and maybe drastic ones and I think it's important 1 listeners know that nagfer is is consistently updated and and revised over the years hasn't just been. 00:28.64 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Okay. 00:38.27 archpodnet You know what was originally written in 90 It's been updated so you're very much well versed in this and you sit on the committee of native american relations with me and you've been the one to like educate most of the committee members on this and like keep me and wade like saying of like what what are we supposed to say. 00:55.92 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yeah, yeah, sure. 00:57.59 archpodnet And it's all really coming from you telling us what we need to tell the essay. So for for our listeners. What's going on with these regulations like what are they about? why are they being proposed and what's the general reaction like let's just get into it. 01:13.14 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Sure yeah I mean I think so um, as I mentioned earlier nagpro is an imperfect law and you know there definitely needs to be some some changes. Um, you know some of this is is my personal opinion. This is not necessarily um, you know I think. To some extent. Um, there hasn't been some transparency by some folks. So let me explain that so we in the nagpro community. Um, we had heard that there were going to be some edits and some proposed changes. And we knew we kept hearing they were coming. They kept hearing they're going to hit the institutions really hard and some institutions need to be hit pretty hard. You know I wouldn't say that's necessarily a bad thing and you know they. You know I had heard in 2019 that they're coming out soon and then of course the world turned upside down and 20.1 of the issues. Um was that um these new regulation the proposed changes as far. I know I don't I don't know who wrote those I don't know where that came from I don't know to the level of consultation that was done with tribes prior I don't know who came up with the idea of this you know that's not something that and I might have missed it but I don't know where the sum of this came from not to say that they're. 02:35.20 Jayne_Leigh Thomas There are changes that I mean they need to be made. For example, we talked about how the law says it's that funery objects may be given back. It's not a must well now it's a must and I think that's fantastic I think that's that's absolutely great. There's a couple other clarifications that have been added to the law. Um, which if that's you know, um, beneficial for folks then that's also that's also great. The the issue is that the new regulations came out and it wasn't clear that a lot of the I mean I didn't we weren't hearing that. There had been a lot of consultation. It's just that a version had been sent out. They were sent out last year in 2020 for the tribes to comment on in the middle of what was still the pandemic and some tribal offices were still shut down and so. And there was ninety days for there to be turnedaround the federal. Um and the department received over seven hundred comments and consulted with 71 tribes. Um, that to me and to a lot of folks that I've talked with is not enough. 71 tribes is not even one eighth of the tribal nations in this country and that doesn't include the native hawaiian organizations that's just not good enough. Um, but I understand that they might be also constrained by some sort of federal policy or rule. So anyway, not to make the excuse for them by any means but you know so. 04:06.73 Jayne_Leigh Thomas After they received the 700 comments in the consultation with the tribes over this last year they've been working on another set of edits and now it's the institution's turn and the organization's turn to comment on these my major issue and. I know that this concern is shared between other universities and tribes. It's one of the major issues is they're going to put a to your deadline to resubmit your inventory information consult with. All of the tribes that have all affiliations with your collections and in 2 years make a determination and turn around submit your legal paperwork to repatriate that's not going to happen it and they have included a way to ask for extensions. If this can't be done I'll explain a little bit. Ah why this is is very again. We don't know where this two years is coming from I know that they're trying to push on the universities to hurry up and get their act together and it does need to happen. But what they're doing is creating exactly what happened. Ninety Ninety the tribes are going to be inundated with universities panicking trying to consult in 2 years and make a determination and what's going to happen is if tribes do not have the resources. 05:39.73 Jayne_Leigh Thomas If they are inundated with requests from 50 other universities and they don't respond they're going to lose out on that collection because the universities will keep going and for years and years and years national niabra has said you know, meaningful consultation at the review committee meetings. Um, they've said you know it must be it needs to be as face to face as often and as possible. You know to really create meaningful work, meaningful consultation and meaningful relationships. Not going to happen with a 2 wo-year deadline. It's just not and um, so. We're not really sure we don't really know what to do about this you know because if that's what comes into the final rule then we have to abide by it. So yeah, so that's one of the major issues that I see is that the um. 1 of the other things that's exceptionally problematic with the requirements is the re inventorying of the ancestral means and funery objects and unfortunately a couple weeks ago on there's a nagpa community of practice and what that is is. A group of all of us across the country that can listen in on certain topics. The um, a representative from the National Niagara program said you don't even have to look in the boxes if you don't look in the box. You're not going to be able to communicate with the tribe. 07:14.94 Jayne_Leigh Thomas What is being repatriated. There are some tribes that will request that the university don't touch the box. Don't open it. Do we don't want you to touch it because unfortunately it was an excuse. The universities were using in the past of well we don't know we have to analyze this all over again. And that was that was absolutely an excuse that was being used but there are communities that want to know the number of ancestors being returned. They want to know the age and sex of the ancestors for certain ceremonial aspects of the reburial. You need to open the box. We have found that the 1995 inventory a lot of the times is wrong when if you're only relying on what's on a 1950 s catalog card or written on the box and it says 2 individuals. And you open the box and there's 8 right? Arms. It's nowhere near it's completely wrong, but by now the national network program promoting and saying you don't open the box. You don't need to It's not necessary. You can just give it back what if. You're getting ready to repatriate and you open the box and there's a forensic case. It's not an acra case but you've never checked. Also if yeah, also if you know what's going to happen is that um. 08:33.57 archpodnet Oh. Okay. 08:44.89 Jayne_Leigh Thomas By not also checking what's in the Box. You're going to force and by not making sure you have everything when you repatriate you're going to force the tribes to repatriate and again and Again. And oh we found more? Oh we found more and we're going to have to do this over and over and over and over because if you don't look through the boxes. For example, we find a lot of human bone in the fauna faunal bone in the animal bone. Um, we had a situation where we found over 2000 human bone fragments in with the animal bone If you do not open the boxes. You are not going to be repatriating all of the ancestors and the funery objects. 09:24.61 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Additionally, with a 2 wo-year timeline. What's going to happen is that right now there are a lot of situations where unfortunately collections are split between universities whether that be the ancestors are at 1 location and the funery objects are two states away at another university or whether there was. 5 excavations done by different schools at one site and so everybody has part of the collection what you're going to do is that if you have a ah 2 wo-year deadline the universities right now are trying to work together. So the tribes don't have to consult more than once on 1 site. Or rebury the same site five six seven times because there's 5 six seven universities with that collection. A lot of us are working together to try to make this efficient and streamlined and so that the tribes are not having to rebury the same collection over and over again. It's it's. You're going to go back to square one where now the tribes are going to have to. They're going to have to hurry pick because we're not going to have a university side are not going to have enough time to get together and do it and it's just not going to happen in 2 years Um, we're going to have to figure it out because if that becomes the federal law. Um. I think it's going to promote really irresponsible and lazy consultation efforts and I think unfortunately a lot of the burden of this is going to land on the tribes. 10:46.45 archpodnet Yeah I can imagine I'm just thinking of my own nag for officer. There's just just just the one and that's already as it currently is you know Marty does a lot and I can't imagine if this is past how yeah how much. 11:03.32 Jayne_Leigh Thomas I mean she will have 2 years to consult with every university in the entire country on anything pawny how how is she going to and and to do try to do face to face consultation to. 11:05.60 archpodnet Busier. 11:12.35 archpodnet Yeah. 11:21.32 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Do that meaningful work that they have promoted for so many years and now they're coming back and saying a 2 year um one thing I think would be a lot better is that okay, for some of these institutions. For example that have been obstructionary and not doing the work. They're supposed to do is. Have everyone have to reinitiate consultation in 2 years it's going to create a lot of work. But if you show that you have reinitiated consultation. Not that you have to have a determination allow the tribe to dictate the deadline on how long this stuff's going to take. Have the institutions show that they have reinitiated consultation on all of their collections. It's going to be a lot of work. But that's fine so that then the tribes dictate the way they want things to go and how long or how fast it's going to take um I don't know. If something like that is going to be proposed. Um I will be presenting to the I will be providing public comment in January on this situation. Um to try to just really hopefully bring these issues. To the forefront that people understand exactly what? um is going to cause a lot of it's not going to make things any faster I know that's what they think it's going to do in reality. It's not. 12:46.66 archpodnet And yeah, that sounds like the picture you're painting right now. So yeah, does not sound really great or actually to to fix a lot of these Well the fix is some problems but creates a whole new whole big one that. Kind of undermines the whole purpose of nac but to begin with and kind of takes a couple steps back with the relationships that have been built these past couple years between organizations and tribes. 13:13.74 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Right? I don't know why the federal government or the department of the interior is basically trying to dictate what the tribe's deadlines are with that two years because I think a lot of folks have forgotten that? yes. It's going to put pressure on the university absolutely and as it should but who's on the other side of the consultation table. It's not just the timeline on the university and for those tribes that have one person in their office if they don't consult fast enough. Are they going to lose out on a collection. Because a university's like oh never heard from them. Guess they're not interested. It's the same thing that happened in the 90 s I just I think it's really going to promote a lot of irresponsible um behavior on behalf of universities that are panicking and just trying to get collections out the door. They're not going to create. Those relationships. Um so I don't know I'm going to propose that. Maybe they the whole 2 year thing that there's a 2 year deadline to show you know evidence of re reaching out to communities but then allowing the tribes to set. The timeline I don't know if that will fall on deaf ears or not but I'm gonna try. 14:31.95 archpodnet Absolutely all right? Thank you so much for coming on on the show today Jane Lay it's absolutely phenomenal. Having you to talk about about something. You're an absolute authority of so what are a couple sources. These could be books articles or videos that you would recommend for anyone interested in nacpro or osteology. 14:36.54 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um, yeah. 14:51.34 archpodnet Um, yeah, what where can our listeners learn more. 14:55.80 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Um, yeah, so um, I would say that um there is a couple good There's a couple of really good books out there. Um, this one's going back a bit kat Kathy Finder in Colorado wrote gravenjustice. Um, that's ah, a good book. There are um, there's a Youtube video I don't know if it's out there yet. It's um, the repatriation of the omaha sacred poll. Do you know that 1 and it was actually a video documentary of Harvard returning a sacred poll I believe in the 90 s and um, that's that's really interesting to watch. Um and I think um. 15:44.20 Jayne_Leigh Thomas I would say that if anybody also has questions to just ask your local nagra person if you have one I mean I'm absolutely always willing to talk with folks about nagpra how it works how it doesn't work the balance between biowork and nagra and you know you can still. Do collaborative biowork research with tribes if that's what they want to do. There's ways to do that and um and we didn't get too much into that today but you know a lot of people had the view that when nagpro was passed. It was you know it was the end of science and it was the end of archaeology and it was It's just nonsense. 16:21.99 archpodnet Right? Did you ever read plundered skulls and shit and stolen spirits. Okay, 1 of my absolute favorite books and yeah, now there's a. 16:22.10 Jayne_Leigh Thomas It's absolutely not. Um, but yeah. 16:29.22 Jayne_Leigh Thomas I have heard of it I have not read it. Yeah. 16:39.78 archpodnet Good section on how um the conversations that surrounded ah the event that caused a lot of impetus for the push towards nagra with the with the demons consultations and the Sand Creek Massacre victims so really good luck. 16:47.42 Jayne_Leigh Thomas A. 16:53.89 Jayne_Leigh Thomas yeah yeah I mean I I think um, you know and if I have ah a moment or 2 I can mention this um one of the things that you know we actually at iu we have just received a grant. To next summer host a a week long training and it's kind of the first of its kind I had been complaining for years that there was no you know summer field school for nagra where people could learn and unfortunately I think a lot of people that ah teach nagra have never done nagpra and that's kind of just a personal soapbox frustration is that. You know you can't teach the law because there's so much more than just what's on the law you have to learn how to do it how to consult and how to appropriately work with communities and um, we received funding to fully pay for 8 individuals to fly to Bloomington for the week and have that training and that training will be um, done by tribal scholars tribal practitioners elders um a few people that are nia practitioners and then we're also going to open it for folks because we've already had a lot of interest. And we can only unfortunately fully fund 8 individuals tribal members will be given priority but we've also decided to open it up for anyone that wants to come in and have it and treat it like a field school and come for the week we're gonna do that as well. So from. 18:19.85 archpodnet Well, all right? That's awesome. Is there going to be like a link or something that we can put in this in the episode description. Okay, sweet. So yeah, everything. 18:27.18 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Yes, yes, we have a we have a yes we have a web website and um, a you can go through I use niara website for that. This is a partnership with the University Of Illino your ban of champpane. And we thought this is just a pilot program to see if it could work. Um and there is a very brief application form. This is not going to be based on number of degrees or if you're student or not this is completely open for anyone and everyone who wants to come. Um, through the application process it could be for tribal elders tippos museum professionals undergraduate students it it doesn't matter. You don't have to have um a certain you know we're not asking to see your cv There's you know there's you'll see on the application page. There's a couple of things. But yeah, we're really hoping that. This is a first year kind of pilot program to see if we can do this and you know hopefully in the the future we can figure out how to make this something that can be offered either through tuition or credit for some students but also be able to have the funding to continue to. Um. Provide resources for folks to come and not charge anything. 19:38.55 archpodnet Excellent and so all these links are what you can find down below in your episode description wherever you listen to this podcast. And last but not least where can our listeners find you either on social media or on the web. How can our folks get in contact with you. 19:55.63 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Oh um, yeah so um, the primary way to get in touch with me is actually through I use nag for website. Um I'm kind of old and old fashioned I don't really do a whole lot of social media. Um, but. Um, yeah I mean my email is thomajayat indiana.edu I'm happy to answer any questions about anything. Um, I also write fiction novels. So if you Google my name that might come up so don't get confused that is also still me but it's just some a hobby I do in the side. So. 20:27.42 archpodnet All right? Well good stuff. Well thank you so much for joining us today. Jane Lee of course while we have to ask this as we do with all of our guests if given the chance again would you still choose to live a life in ruins. Excellent. 20:31.30 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Well thank you for having me. 20:41.33 Jayne_Leigh Thomas Absolutely. 20:45.49 archpodnet Everyone we just interviewed Dr Jane Lee Thomas you can find um, Jane Lee on I use nac website and you can find her email down below in this episode description and as always please please please be sure to rate the podcast provide us with any feedback on whichever podcasting platform you're using to listen to our show. 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