00:00.62 archpodnet Welcome to a life and roots podcast episode 136 reinvestigatee the careers of those living a life in ruins I'm your host Carlton go and I am actually joined by my co-hosts Conor John and and David Howe tonight we have a special episode featuring a ah fan favorite. 00:02.82 Kanye West Coming up. 00:10.47 Kanye West But. 00:19.55 archpodnet Dr. Shane Miller from Mississippi State and tonight we're talking about episode 6 of Graham Hancock's ancient. Apocalypse America's lost civilization and we we just finished watching it. We didn't watch the other 5 episodes we have that this is the only episode. We've watched. 00:20.32 Kanye West Was cold. 00:38.16 archpodnet And my head hurts. 00:40.94 Kanye West I Believe him. 00:47.45 Kanye West Um, he convinced me. 00:52.59 archpodnet Ah, yeah I don't I don't know I guess starting with you with you Shane what were your? what's your general ah reaction to watching watching that episode. 00:52.86 Shane Um, um. 00:57.40 Kanye West Um. 01:07.96 Shane Um, that was fucking weird that was a that was an acid trip I didn't ask for. 01:16.83 Kanye West Ah, we just finished it like 10 minutes ago 01:22.19 Shane Yeah I still haven't had time to really process it that was weird that was really weird. Um I just gave my last final of the semester earlier today and I'm like reconsidering everything So I don't know man. 01:37.95 Kanye West Because he's right? um. 01:39.88 Shane Okay, clearly clearly apparently I need to just stop telling my students to read and tell him to start walk listening to Joe Rogan 01:44.81 Kanye West Okay. 01:49.73 archpodnet So yeah, that was ah there was there is a lot of theories presented in what amounted to a 30 minute episode um 02:05.20 archpodnet Connor how you how you doing over there buddy. 02:06.61 connor I Feel like I've been like been like running through hoops and like shot across the world. It was just this wild ride of like you can't even you can't even process it when you're getting thrown through it because the arguments are like so. Short sweet and there's no questions asked in between anything. It's like you're just on this wild ride this rollercoaster that he has in his brain that that generally connects to something that happens it it it it hurts it. I'm physically hurt my face physically hurts. 02:48.59 archpodnet Yeah, so the whole point of the show is to back. Graham's claim of some sort of ancient apocalyptic event. So each of these 7 episodes investigate different regions and he finds quote. Um. Evidence to support some sort of global apocalypse that happened in the past we just watched an episode that specifically focused on mound building cultures and I use the word cultures loosely because it really focuses on 2 so two sites and cherry picks which we'll get onto and in the next 2 segments. But. 03:25.22 Kanye West Don't think he cherry picks duty like Mary Sheno Jerry picks that's the best ones. 03:25.33 archpodnet We. 03:31.94 Shane Um, hello. 03:35.52 archpodnet Right? And um, he he does and then sprinkles his own bullshit in there but like Grahamcock Hancock we've talked about him. 03:44.93 Kanye West Um. 03:45.56 connor Graham Graham Cock is his new name. 03:45.80 Shane Um, yeah, oh we're getting trouble for that one? okay. 03:47.88 archpodnet Graham Cock yeah Graham so that grant we know we're protected. Ah yeah, where if if anyone wants to come through us. They could have the the $400 in our bank account but they stuff to get through the apn first. 03:52.37 Kanye West Yeah. 04:05.10 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah, podium up Chris and Rachel ah, but and and we decided to do episode 6 particularly one because um. 04:05.10 Shane Um, I'm putting my real my safety. 04:05.80 Kanye West And. 04:18.22 archpodnet Ah, we had Shane on the show. We're all more familiar with american archaeology than the other topics like go beverly techie and other places and then also if those of you who listen to the archaeology podcast network know that a couple other. Ah, shows have touched upon the first 2 episodes and so we kind of wanted to skip ahead and carve out something. That's that's ours and that we can be authorities on as much as we can be ah, be believed to be authorities. Um, without being said though. Ah he. We've we've talked about Graham a number of times on the show and me Connor and David have talked about Graham in and Shane and Jesse Jesse tune from Fort lewis college um, who's been on the show a couple times as well. Um about Graham and he is not a trained archeologist. He is a writer. 05:06.78 Kanye West Journalist. 05:07.65 archpodnet By trade journalist um, and interestingly enough his son is a content producer at Netflix which may explain how Graham was able to land this this deal. Although it has been rather phenomenal to see. That the society for American Archeology has put out probably 1 of its quickest statements in the society's history condemning Netflix ah, you know all the other you know, horrible things that happened the essay they take a little bit but you know god we got to get Graham down and you can find that statement. 05:28.26 Kanye West Did they. 05:42.55 Kanye West Um, see that only helps him win like I don't like that and I'm firm on that opinion I agree that like he's spewing like. 05:44.17 archpodnet On the society for American Archeology website. 05:56.53 Kanye West Nonsensical stuff but like his whole thing is that archaeologists did the secret Illumina of society that hide the truth and are stuck in their ways and then when the entire society's like we condemn you it like only helps his argument get over it. 06:10.35 archpodnet Um, he's like what is. 06:11.76 Shane What's the start just ignore just like not any oxygen into the file. 06:15.21 Kanye West Yeah,, don't give him air ignore him or like meet him on his level and like talk to him but like none of them want to talk to him Apparently? um, he's he said that on the show he was like I've reached out to people. No one wants to argue with me. And it's like all right. 06:34.93 archpodnet And well he has he has a history of when he does talk with archaeologists. He employs the same sort of debating tactics as Ben Shapiro or other known um punits that that engage in really not. What's the word I'm looking for like they don't come with um, good behavior. Not good behavior. They're not well-meaning when they when they're there to sit with people. It's not an actual dialogue or conversation like Graham is out to push a narrative. He has or oratory strategies in order to. 07:00.69 Shane Um, ah. 07:07.79 archpodnet Disable his opponents and as we've talked about at the show at nauseum the vast majority of archaeologists and anthropologists do not have the communication skills and the public speaking skills or the debate skills to engage with individuals like Graham Hancock at a platform. 07:24.11 Kanye West I Could see that. 07:25.14 archpodnet Um, that's beneficial to both parties. Yeah, like we saw that with like bill Nye the science guy when he went up against um, ah ah what is his name. The australian like I can see is his. It's red on the tip of my tongue who's Ken Ham Ken ham 07:31.29 Kanye West Creation guy. 07:37.69 Kanye West Ken Ken some yep 07:43.50 archpodnet Graham Hancock and Ken ham and you know that I mean I thought bill postured himself. Well but like kind of to your point David like what happened after that special came out Ken Ham got all the money he needed immediately following that special to build his arc and his interpretive. Museum right? Like that was the result of that national stage. Um, so I don't think and I think because of those his history of engaging with archeologists in that manner now. We have a situation where archeologists don't want to engage with him and it will have to probably come down to. 08:03.60 Kanye West Um, thank. 08:09.77 Kanye West Of. 08:21.95 archpodnet Maybe a few individuals who like legit train like get trained up to to debate with with Graham um, but in any issue with that is um and that that you see on this show is Graham takes us to a rather like ah a large variety of places across the globe. He dips into many different cultural groups and time periods and as our listeners know on the show like when we interview people they're specialized in a particular region a particular time period or a particular material culture. We don't. Like sit down with encyclopedias of archeology and know and everything right? like we're very specialized in what we know and we're very open about like you know we brought Shane on because he lives in the south. He goes to seac he knows mound cultures. Um I do earth lodges and plains towns. Like I I'm not an authority or know that record yet now I just got handed the fucking giant 2 volume book on angel mounds to start dipping my toes into Mississippi Worldll seac next year shame I know? Um, um, I'm scared man. 09:16.52 Kanye West Ah. 09:29.97 Shane Um, who that's a lie but that's a mom seac will be fun. Angel mallins is a monster that's a that's a heavy hitter that's amo 1 09:34.19 archpodnet Um, so good. 09:41.20 archpodnet It's yeah, that's that it's in my museum like we own that collection. It's terrified. Actually why I want to get into that later because our new museum We have a whole virtual reality dome that actually. 09:43.70 Kanye West I've never heard of it. 09:44.30 Shane Yeah, don't screw it up. 09:47.99 Kanye West Um, does it align with your north. Um. 09:58.64 archpodnet Ah, recreates Angel mounds and you can go through different day cycles and and time periods and years that you can actually see alignments and stuff like that. But we'll get into. 10:03.66 Shane We should probably talk talk about that whenever we get to the surfit mound stuff out like Tim Pocketat stuff with the archeology of the cot like there's stuff here that hancock goes through that is now. 10:06.10 Kanye West That's pretty sick. Next possible. 10:23.69 Shane It's not like new stuff. It's not he didn't come up with this archeologists have been talking about some of this stuff for decades. That's the other frustrating thing. It's like it's literally watching that was like. Like when you're a professor and you got your kids and you know you got your students. You got your grad students. You give them assigned readings. They all can't come in and you know which ones are prepared. They're ready for a deep conversation and then you got the person who showed up is clearly read the abstract maybe to the articles. 10:42.29 Kanye West So. 10:54.98 Shane And then like is like scanning the Wikipedia page and then picks up on the conversation and tries to and tries to jump in and they just sound. It's very skin deep like treatment of the topic. 11:07.72 Kanye West Are. 11:09.52 Shane But then they've won off in some crazy direction like derailing the whole class. This is what Graham Hancock feels like is like the guy who shows up without reading and attempts to be provocative to unpress a class ends up looking like. 11:22.10 Kanye West And. 11:26.94 Shane An idiot to everybody else who's read Um, but if you haven't read well then it's like oshher or whatever. But like if you've read the material you know literature and it's just like no no, no, no, no, no, no, but like we're talking about earlier. It's like if you try to argue with somebody like that they'll say something crazy. 11:36.99 archpodnet Right. 11:46.42 Shane It takes you 3 minutes to explain the background information to contextualize why the idea is crazy before you even get into that 3 minutes they say something else crazy and something else crazy and it's like trying to keep up with crazy and it's like yeah I know. 12:01.70 Kanye West Um, what does that remind you of why I met Trump but yeah. 12:02.84 archpodnet Bernie Taylor 12:06.70 Shane Yeah, like it's like political disports now it's it's like trying to argue with somebody on Fox it's like trying to argue with like um, a family member at Thanksgiving and it's just like this is just a losing battle. 12:09.60 connor Um, or you. 12:20.71 Kanye West Um, yeah, did we lose Carlton. 12:22.19 Shane We lost Carlton. Oh. 12:24.78 connor Now I think he's muted and he's doing something listen. Um. 12:27.98 archpodnet And I'll be back. 12:29.92 Kanye West Okay, but yes it it is like arguing with a like a fan never at Thanksgiving I would say connor. 12:33.19 Shane Um, he's got. 12:36.31 connor I was going to say I think this and I think this the space that that Graham is talking about in this episode specifically the arce astronomy is something that is talked about in archeology. But maybe so not something that everyone is really interested. Or fully buys because and I this is just my personal opinion I think that I mean it is interesting to look at celestial now locations and where things point etc. Um, but I'm I'm really just not truly interested as interested. And that as I am like the material record ah of where people lived and other things. So I think this like this spot that he's attacking in archaeology has a history of being associated with pseudoscience and less accepted within the discipline. 13:32.70 Kanye West And. 13:32.33 connor But that doesn't mean there isn't good um scholarship done within this and Shane like we'll talk about in the um in the poverty point section. There's like a good paper that kind of delves into these ideas and really focuses on and does a ah good work of scholarship. 13:50.28 connor Um, but I think I think Graham really attacks that area because it's not accepted as much I don't know that's kind of my. 13:57.51 Kanye West Um, it's also sexy looking too like everyone like I grew up watching history channel and stuff and like the maya and the aztec calendars and stuff and like how it aligns with celestial stuff and like doomsday calendar and all that stuff like it's cool sounding. And like oh that makes sense and like it's kind of ethereal and like what he does is like you said he attacks that and like ah uses that as his like weapon and like people tuning in on Netflix that are like moderately into history like whoa and then he spends the whole time saying archeologists don't do this like he literally said that episode. Archaeologists just rule out archae astronomy because they don't understand it and it's like yeah, it's not our job but like we're I'm totally happy to include an astronomer into here if we if we had to what. 14:43.57 Shane I think it's funny his strategy at the beginning of where he was like I feel like I'm less deconstructing his archeology in this and more interested in how he constructed his arguments. It's like the rhetoric is more interesting than the actual archeology stuff that he is talking about. And I think it's fascinating that he starts off with peeling of the America stuff and he starts out with that is like the undermining thing of like people thought it was this for so long and it was dogmatic and now we have he brings out white sands and sarudi which I feel like we should have had a Bingo card. Ready to go and it's like those would have both been on it for the english but you know I've talked about those sites with you guys like one's one's very controversial the other one's controversial to the point of being absurd. Um and he uses that is like. 15:24.74 Kanye West Yeah, yeah. 15:41.42 Shane This like crack in the door to like oh doubt the end of the establishment. It's like I feel like I'm like oh this is this is my corner. This is me and my colleagues not having our stuff together and not making good faith arguments and talking past each other and and um, they. 15:43.61 Kanye West Right. 16:01.32 Shane Leaves the the crack in the door open for some guy to come busting through with like using this as like ah a gateway to crazy. 16:11.30 connor Yeah, ah but the hard part is is that if we don't have engage in these dialogues. We're not I don't think we're doing the scientific method and process and we shouldn't like the inverse would that be like we don't debate anything or don't allow these things to. 16:26.36 Shane Yeah, well I'm not saying not debate the peopleing in the Americas I'm saying maybe the way in which the debate has played out has has made it seem I don't know I'm struggling for my words here. Um. 16:27.71 connor Happen. 16:39.95 connor Is it like too dogmatic like that's. 16:43.35 Shane I Think maybe just the contentiousness of and the way it was always set up is like oh you had this pre-clo you have these clovis police Blah Blah Blah Blah blah and then now look the clovis. 16:52.79 Kanye West Well. 16:55.49 Shane Police are wrong and so this is an example of how archeologists can be wrong and so yeah, I'm going to tell you about other places where archeologists are probably wrong like they were wrong about the people of the Americas leaving out the historical fact that somebody like Vanance Haines was like. You know I'm not He's like I'm open to being wrong. He actually set up the scientific 3 criteria that's got to be archeological. It's got to be a good context got to be in a date and if it's older than clovis and it matches all 3 of those within the clovis he literally set up. The guidelines by which you would undermine the clovis and you know then you know the story behind the story of like when freakking came out Vans Haynes Mr. Clovis police himself sent a nice letter to Mark Waters saying this looks like a really great site I'm really impressed with what you did and. Um, I really want to see more. Um, so it's like how dogmatic is if like the fucking sheriff of the clovis police is like sending letters to ah white waters congratulating him on his pre-clovis site like this is if you don't. 17:57.43 Kanye West Maha. 18:04.61 Shane No, and you're not in these circles. It's easy to believe that it's that this narrative is as simplistic as Graham Hancock lays it out to be and it's clearly not at all. 18:16.78 Kanye West I think that is a great place to end the first segment and we will come back in David diving more into the ah chaos that was this episode.