00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to episode one thirty nine of a life ruins podcast reinvestige the careers and research of those living a life in ruins I am your host Carlton Gover and today. I am joined by Dr Joe Watkins one of the foundational and leading scholars of indigenous archeologyies Joe it is an absolute delight to have you on the show. How are you doing this evening. 00:18.30 Joe I am doing great actually I'm sitting in my office in Tucson Arizona having spent the last six months in Sapporo Japan I had back to sapporowednesday morning at five Zero a m for another five months of being um, rather isolated at least conversationally because people there they may speak english but they don't really speak english unless it's kind of pulled out of them. So. Much of the time I walk around Sapporo with my head down um with a a very specific location in mind. So I'm glad to be back in the Us at least for the last three weeks 01:07.16 archpodnet Excellent. That's that's amazing I guess like just what are you? What are you doing in Sapporo Japan that has you out there for so long. Yeah. 01:16.26 Joe I'm a visiting professor at hakao university in the global studies. Let's ah see it's a global station for indigenous studies and cultural diversity. It's a. 5 ive-year project looking at trying to increase. Um Eastern East asian understanding of what indigenous archaeology is so I'm there for a year kind of helping out with the the global station trying to um. Provide some background to try to help the indigenous population of hakaido the I knew better understand how archaeology works how it might be used to help them tell their story of the past but also try to help the. Japanese population better understand what? what it means to be indigenous and so forth. So it's a rather amorphous project rather large in in many circumstances. But um. Challenging and a lot of fun whenever it it comes together. Well. 02:29.82 archpodnet It awesome Does it look like it's going to have a bright future. You think it's going to have a substantial impact on on the field. 02:37.50 Joe I think it might I think it will have some impact there in Japan currently the probably 95% of the japanese population doesn't realize that the I knew still exist and I think that. Probably the majority of people who know anything about the inew are people who have read the ah graphic novel the golden kumui which sort of has provided some information about the I knew culture from the 1830 s up until the 1880 s or so ah but beyond that I think many people at least in Japan don't realize that there is a very separate distinct indigenous population. There. 03:29.63 archpodnet And all right. That seems pretty similar to maybe some americans living on the East Coast not realizing that there's still indigenous people here in the America as well. Ah, other than being this visiting scholar and professor for the. 03:35.93 Joe Ah. 03:44.51 archpodnet Is there an acronym for the global institution for collaborative research and Education Gi Gi core. 03:48.46 Joe Um, it it well g I core is the another large program but Gsi it's a global station for indigenous studies and cultural diversity. So gs iscri. We just call it. Gsi global station. 04:07.67 archpodnet Ah, ah, right, got you and and with that you're also ah, still um, a core team member for the murals of America project and are you still an associate faculty at um Arizona Our University Of Arizona and and Simon Fraser 04:23.80 Joe Yes, um, I've been involved with the University Of Arizona since we moved here in 2018 that was one of the first things I did was to go to the school of anthropology I had quite a few colleagues there and ask. If I could be involved so that I could perhaps help out with students if they have any questions or concerns. Ah gain access of course to the online library system and try to find a way to to help out some of the colleagues that I've worked with in the past I work. Again with George Nicholas up at Simon Fraser University we were involved with ah a shark project in Canada called what was it called I pinch in intellectual property. Ah. Rights in indigenous cultural heritage that was a a large program that George Nicholas and a large group of us got together to look at the idea of intellectual property. Whether cultural heritage could be protected under. Existing intellectual property laws or or whether new laws would need to be constructed and then looking at working with ah tribes and first nations to help better understand their ideas and concerns about cultural heritage. So it's. 05:55.34 Joe Um, when I look at all the things I've been associated with over the past ten years it it scares me I don't remember half of it until I start looking at it and then it was like oh yeah, we did that and and we did that and oh yeah, that was a lot of fun. So it's been a tremendous I would say the last 15 years. 06:18.30 archpodnet I mean just looking at your your record I think it's been like a tremendous like 30 years I mean you've been all over at so many different institutions contributing to the field in so many different ways. Not only at a Us context but clearly a global one and. You know you're one of the in in the us especially one of the foundational scholars of and of indigenous archeology and you started your um, collegiate education back in the 70 s at university of of Oklahoma. And at that time, especially we've had a number of indigenous archaeologists on on the show and most of them are you know in their twenty s thirty s and we all you know watkins is always referenced in anybody's work or or mention as someone that we rely on for a lot of our work. Um, in the 70 s what what got you into wanting to study anthropology back then right. 07:20.92 Joe Well I got really interested in archeology when I was 10 years old excuse me I'm going to start that again. I got it I got really interested in archeology when I was 10 years old my grandmother and I were walking on the family homestead in Southeastern Oklahoma and I found ah an archaic projectile point. Maybe he's 4 to 6000 years old and I showed it to my grandmother and she let it be known that it was not the. Deep history of the Choctaw nation but rather it was a history of the people who lived there before the choctaws were moved there in the 1840 s so I kind of kept that in the back of my head I initially wanted to be a paleontologist but. When I realized I wasn't going to be able to go to China and dig up dinosaur nests I decided that well archaeology gave me that same sort of a thrill. So um, interesting I graduated from high school in 1969 um started. School at the University Of Oklahoma in the latter part of August of one sixty nine and that happened to be the same month that vind lawyer published some excerpts of his book Custer Died for your sins in. 08:55.44 Joe Playboy Magazine of course I I really tell people yes that it was he he did an excerpt of anthropologists and other friends in Playboy Magazine August issue of 1969 so I 08:56.44 archpodnet What? what. 09:14.99 Joe Read that I read the book and here I was an american indian student planning on going into archaeology and yet I was having to list off all the things that vine deloya was writing about and say yeah, that's true. Yeah, well yeah, that's true archaeologists do present themselves as if they know everything and that the tribal people don't and yes, well there have been some very crazy archeologists who. Have a tendency to go out and dig up anything and everything they can ah but I kind of felt at that time that if things were going to change that perhaps they needed to be changed from the inside out. So i. I dealt with being in the middle from the time I started my archaeology classes in 1969 and still quite often and in the middle at this point in time still trying to help anthropologists better understand. Why indigenous people have concern with the the discipline and trying to help indigenous people understand the ways to which anthropology and archaeology can be used to help at least the general population. 10:47.48 Joe Ah, better understand how things can be seen from different perspectives. So um I I got to know vine deloya after I moved to the University Of New Mexico in 2001 and 2002 and got him to autograph 2 copies of my ah Playboy Magazine of his articles. So I have those and ultimately it was vind loria who set me on my path toward. My my dissertation research to look at how archaeologists perceive american indian issues about archaeology here in North america so and I told him numerous times how much I thanked him for. Making me stop and think about what it is that I had hoped to do and ultimately what it is I did accomplish. 11:50.89 archpodnet And absolutely so I mean coming in the field and in the 70 s especially at that time at the ou anthro department were you one of the only indigenous students present. 12:05.60 Joe Um I believe there was I know there was and a south american indian student. There were a couple of american indian students but they were primarily either in linguistics or in cultural anthropology. There weren't any in archeology. The archaeologists didn't really believe that an american indian could be subjective enough to do good archeology. They always thought that we could not. Erase our cultural background and our cultural baggage to provide a very subjective interpretation of the archaeological record. Um and nowadays I think that's what they're trying to to tell us we need to do more of but. This was fifty years ago it's I I really hesitate to think of it being fifty years because I only feel like I'm about 35 at this point. 13:07.65 archpodnet So and and that's crazy and they felt like at that time that they were capable of of being that non-biased themselves towards the archeological record. 13:21.00 Joe I think they really thought they were you know they were doing science. They were doing things that ah could be repeated. They were doing excavations and recording them in such a way that other people could come along and. Possibly reconstruct everything that they had done so that the idea was that the archaeological record was clean and that they didn't really consider their own biases and it really wasn't until George trigger really started writing about. Ah. Bruce trigger I'm sorry wasn't until Bruce Trigger started writing about the inherent biases within archeology that they started thinking about well maybe we've need to do this differently. So um, interesting times. I do know that I did not speak up as much as I probably should have I I remember sometimes walking out of the classroom shaking my head thinking? Oh if only I had said or if only but. Um I was afraid to really counter anything that the professors were saying. 14:45.23 archpodnet I just understood I mean I know people do with that today and and and back in the seventy s I couldn't imagine that kind of environment and um and the ability to do so or being it safe enough. You know for for you to do so um, so you got your your bachelor's of arts in anthro in 73? Um, what led you to pursue a masters in anthro and archeology specialization at at Southern Methodist University why why did you choose Smu to. 15:09.58 Joe Well I always wanted to do old world archeology. So the summer between my junior and senior Year 1972 I was lucky enough to get on a field school with francois board in France in. The doudone region of France with laisaz and um, there was a tremendous experience. Got to see lascaux fonaggome all many many major rock art sites and cave painting sites. Um. Ah, tremendous tremendous opportunity and you know I really at that time wanted to work in the old world because I wasn't going to excavate american indian burials and American Indian Skeletons so ah part of me just sort of was thinking well I should go to Europe and and dig up their ancestors and see how well they like it but it didn't have the same impact because of one I I never we never found any human remains and. Francois Bord was was such a great joker that he always used to kid me that his ancestors ate buffalo before mind did so we we we had a a great joking relationship and he turned out to be a good friend as well. So. 16:44.61 Joe I wanted to do old world archaeology I didn't want to go to California I checked out the university of missouri because they had a fairly strong program and then one of my professors said well you should check down at Southern Methodist University because they had a good. North African and sub-saharan african programs are very strong programs. Um, of course I I knew I couldn't afford to go to graduate school. But I thought I would kind of check things out anyway. But I was walking through the the library. At the University Of Oklahoma just before December break in 1972 and there was a small little poster that said Ford Foundation grants for American Indians and I thought huh so i. Took some information went back to my um, my room and actually applied and got very lucky was able to in January I flew out to Tucson for an interview and. Was lucky to get a ah full one year scholarship with tuition fees and living expenses paid um to pursue my degree. It was ah an extreme bit of luck. 18:19.21 Joe I admit that I I know that had I not found that piece of paper in that announcement had I not applied I would never have accomplished 95% of the things that I've been able to just because that. Little degree that piece of paper has made such a great deal of Difference. Both the the master's degree and then later on going back and completing the Ph d. 18:47.56 archpodnet Yeah, so there's there's there's quite a gap so you got your your master's in in 77 what did you do after you got your master's degree. Yeah. 18:54.24 Joe Like I went to work for the federal government in Atlanta for a year and a half um worked for archeological and. Services I guess interagency archaeological services in Atlanta they decided they wanted to reorganize and asked if I wanted to move to Michigan and I said I did not want to move to Michigan so I resigned my position. Having been there for eighteen months moved back to Oklahoma City developed a consulting firm did some consulting for a couple of years um oil field was just beginning to to blossom and boom. But I just couldn't find work so I went to work for Oklahoma Indian Legal Services as an office manager then became assistant manager of a legal services program they're in Oklahoma city. Um. 20:05.39 Joe Was there for 2 years ah moved to toos worked at millicent rogers museum for a couple of years um mainly I did a lot of different things that were not archeology I had gotten a little. Burnt out I was a little angry because some of the professional archaeologists that I had been dealing with were anything but professional. They were sort of undercutting their competition. They were doing. Ah. Projects that they couldn't really make money on but they just didn't want other people to have the work and they were trying to develop a following so from basically 19179 ah maybe 1980 through 19 90 I was just doing bits and pieces of things. Um in ninety ninety one I went to work for the um university of oklahoma oklama archaeological survey worked there for 3 years and then started working for the. Bureau Of Indian Affairs in Anna Darko and I I loved that job I was there for 10 years actually I think I started there in 90 at the beginning of the native american graves protection and repatriation act. 21:36.41 Joe And I remember working with tribes here in oklama in in Oklahoma as they started getting boxes and boxes of um summaries and inventories of. Native american human remains funerary objects sacred objects objects of cultural patrimony from museums in response to nagburg. So um, that was a busy time. Ah. 22:06.92 archpodnet I I bet and for our listeners nacpro is the native american graves protection repatriation act of 1990 which was a law signed by George Bush and basically forced. Um. Federally funded museums and institutions to repay create objects of cultural patrimony back to to federally recognized tribes and so that was a big move and it kind of stems off of the american religious freedoms act of 1970? yeah. 22:32.84 Joe 78 Eight Nineteen Seventy eight 22:38.30 archpodnet 78 which basically yeah and so a huge a huge time and that really ah, kind of created force collaboration between institutions and archaeologists with indigenous communities and a lot of archeologists and museum professionals at that time thought. 22:50.98 Joe Um, right. 22:54.26 archpodnet Ah, Nacfer was just going to be a clearing house and tribes going to come in and take take everything and that has been shown to be be untrue. My fallback is to go to the B I If Archeology doesn't work out I think that's where I'm I'm going is is the work with the bi just like every everyone else in my family. But. 22:58.50 Joe Um, so. 23:11.98 Joe Ah, yeah, well the B I a has done some good things and they've done some very terrible things. Um, but it's as with any governmental agency. There are good people in it and there are some people who. 23:14.00 archpodnet Please. 23:28.75 Joe Just want to beat Indians away. Yeah, so it's I had the good fortune to work with some good people and they they helped me. They allowed me time to actually. Work on my dissertation while I was um in office if I had gotten all my surveys done all my reports done if there wasn't anything that really had to be done. They allowed me to take some writing time in my office. So. Um, being able to complete that in 9094 was you know that was a ah big thing for me recognizing that in my brain the Ph D didn't mean anything. But. To people outside of in the other world. It made a great deal of difference. 24:29.50 archpodnet I absolutely so your dissertation titled ethics and value conflicts analysis of archeologists responses to questionnaire scenarios concerning the relationship between American Indians and archaeologists which you then published and did you get that published in plains. Anthropologist. 24:40.45 Joe I. 24:47.19 archpodnet Yeah volume forty Four ninety nine issue One seventy 24:47.46 Joe Um, yeah I published just a a sort of a summary chapter in it looking at basically some of the statistics that I had used to talk about how archeologists. Tended to view concerns if it was on private property Archaeologists felt that tribes shouldn't have any say if it was on federal Property Archaeologists felt that as long as laws were being followed then sure there was okay to listen to Tribes. And if his own tribal property Archaeologists understood that the the tribes should have the the ultimate say over it. So um, there was still some statistical things that showed up but in the long run. Basically the the biggest thing was. Ah, land ownership was what the archaeologists felt should be driving it nothing to do with ethics or anything else. 25:50.22 archpodnet Interesting and do think if you because you you sent that questionnaire out between November Ninety Ninety One and April Ninety Ninety Three um if it had been maybe like four years earlier do you think your responses would have been different or because ah the results of your ah survey were really just showing. It was it was just land rather than ethics. Do you think it would have just been the same if you had done it in the late 80 s before nacpro was passed. 26:13.68 Joe I think it be I think it probably would have been very similar if it had been conducted in the the late 80 s because what I believe is that there is sort of a generational effect. That the archaeologists who had been who were trained at a time when archaeology was basically freeform that the tribes did not have a great deal of consulting power. Ah that I believe that the archaeologists still would have felt that. They only would have followed what the law required I think if that's survey were done now or at least say at the turn of the century things would have been different because we are seeing a generational change. We're seeing that students who have. Taken classes and have learned about archaeology after repatriation after Nagpur and after the national museum of the American Indian act are much more forward in looking at tribal consultation conversations with tribes. And recognizing that tribes should have a say about how how archeology is practiced. So um I think that eventually we won't be having these same sorts of conversations because the conversations will be in history books about. 27:51.34 Joe The way things used to be rather than the way things are. 27:53.89 archpodnet And excellent and on that note, we're going to go ahead and take a break here on segment one. We'll be right back and in the next segment we're going to talk to Dr Watkins about his experiences and and what we were just talking about paradigm shifts and archeology over the past couple decades and some of this creates key transitions that he's been a part of so we'll be right back. After these messages.