00:00.00 archpodnet 1 and welcome back to segment 2 of episode one thirty nine we are here with Dr Joe Watkins so Joe what? what's awesome to me is is looking back in in the field in the past really fifty six years which you haven't been a part of the field. Quite that long. Um, but you came in as an undergraduate in the 70 s right during the height of new archeology which is as you alluded to in that first segment that's when archeology under proponents especially like Lewis Binford um really promoting archaeology as a hard science that was very much being pushed on statistics and data collection and this idea of removing any bias that you have and just just looking at the looking at the data and. As ah, you've you've grown in the in the career and profession. Um, there's been a lot of of different changes I mean we touched on like the passages passage of nagpra in particular in the in the in in the 90 s but. 01:09.41 archpodnet You got to see the post-perceptual critique or the or archaeology's version of postmodernism creep in where archeologists um Hotter being a big name of course um, trying to deconstruct or critique that scientific approach and try to have people. Really think about more abstract ideas and not just worry about the numbers but think about things of culture Kinship Gender What was it like to be ah, an archeologist during that time, especially one that was growing um in the career as ah as an early professional. 01:44.40 Joe It was ah and in some ways it was a difficult time because if you try to approach study of humans ah without thinking about. Being human it. It makes it difficult for me. It was like believing that someone could create a computer program that could tell you everything you needed to know about the past is just not possible. So as I was reading. Benford and his discussions about how if we do this and if we don't do that then we can create a clean science that will give us the answers to the past or it will help us better understand. How we can influence the future with what we're saying or what we're writing um I struggled with that because I always felt that we needed to be talking about humans I I never really thought that there were pottery types that. Moved across the landscape changing from cord mark to to cut marked to incised. You know I I kept thinking well people are doing this not pieces of pottery and projectile points don't happen to populate the landscape people do so what. 03:10.81 Joe Causes people to change their ideas. Is it some sort of Identity. We only make projectile points that look like everybody else in my family makes projectile points and so ah to me that removed the idea that. It was scientific as much as it was Humanistic. So you know I had to in many times write papers in such a tongue and cheek way that my professors didn't understand that I was being a little um. 03:50.29 Joe Yeah, ah that I had to act like I really believed what? ah what I was spouting back on paper and to me that wasn't really a good way to to practice archeology I I got lucky in that. 04:08.65 Joe Um, nineteen early 1970 s was also a time when salvage archaeology cultural resource management started happening much more fully. Some archaeologists were doing surveys for um for highway departments for the states and much of their research was very basic you you go out, you collect the data. You find the archeological sites you craft reports. You give them to the agency that needs the information and then you step back you might interpret it if you want to pull together a presentation for a conference but generally it was just very basic archeology. And and so I learned a bit of that I learned how to create basic archaeology that other people could use if they wanted to start looking at broader pictures I really wasn't a big picture person i'm. Sorry to say I was very much and an Oklahoma person who just wanted to um say what I needed to say in the classroom to get through the classes to get my degree so that I could. 05:40.83 Joe Get out and do something um so it was I I I remember discussions with other archeologists in a few. Um I. I Don't want to say saloons in a few circumstances where conversation was lubricated ah and some of those conversations either evolved or devolved into shouting matches with people saying well. Archaeology has got to be science and others saying no archaeology is anthropology or it's nothing or archaeology is nothing more than something that we do because we feel good about what it is um. Some of them didn't see any utility for archaeology many of the the tribal people that I knew said that you know they they didn't believe in it. They they had their own histories. They had their own stories. They didn't need archaeologists to tell them something that they already knew. So. Um, it was it. It was looking back I Do admit it was a lot of fun. There were times when I I knew just how to twist a word or a phrase to to make a friend of mine angry or. 07:11.86 Joe Or at least ah have him look at me as if I were Crazy. So Um I was not at that time I I didn't think that I had anything worth saying. So I didn't speak at conferences I didn't give Presentations I didn't really write anything until until after I had my M a I was just very much focused on completing the degree and. Trying not to make too many waves. 07:51.47 archpodnet You absolutely yeah I mean you certainly did that did that a little bit later and and so as you're doing your ph d right? Nacrick gets passed in 9090 you send your survey out and as a result of of nacpro. Yeah Roger Echohawk and Larry Zimmerman working together to figure out. How repatrons good repatriation is going to work and they draw on oral traditions to identify cultural affiliation and they're doing this practice of incorporating indigenous knowledge but it's not until your book in 2000? Um, indigenous archeology. That comes out where you you provide a name for that approach it being indigenous archeology. So what was I mean that's such a foundational ah book and what was your what was the impetus for you for you writing it and and getting it out there because. You know and the first time you talked about how you had flak from some of your professors. They didn't think you were you were too native to do the science unbiased and now you come out like 2 decades later with like here's a whole book on why my indigenous um. 08:47.44 Joe That. 08:57.79 archpodnet Perspectives and ontologies matter for for doing this and and it's an inclusive approach not just Indians can do indigenous archeology but everyone can in a collaborative manner. 09:11.73 Joe Um, it was I think it was a long time in germinating the again I I was a part of the. 09:25.56 Joe Ah, 10 consultations that were held about the american indian religious freedom act 1978 in 1979 and during those consultations I got to to sit around with um. 09:44.92 Joe Bunky echo hawk walter ecoha um and a a lot of very outspoken forceful very intelligent, indigenous people across the United States tribal members attorneys ah people who had. Ideas that they had thought about for 2030 years and they had been given the opportunity with these consultations to talk about the importance of protecting native american human remains the importance of recognizing. Archaeological sites as places of the past sacred areas areas of importance to existing tribal people and not just areas of importance to science or to archaeologists. So with that as a background. When I completed my ph d and started looking at what I had learned from the questionnaires and the conversations I had had with people I thought it was important that to try to find some way to increase the conversation. Um. I was at the choc mo conference in Canada and was sitting down and had a a very long conversation with Brian Fagin we were talking about ah dissertations and thesis and writing and he said that he felt that. 11:13.42 Joe I should um, try to find a publisher and try to see if I had something I wanted to say so I I knew Mitch Allen used to be at alhammira press and then ultimately left coast press and he and I talked and he's. Helped me better craft it in such a way that might have impact my initial title was toward an indigenous archaeology and he said no, we don't want to go towards something we want to start something right now. Um. And the the term indigenous archeology to previous uses in the past indigenous archaeology really meant just the archaeology of indigenous people so that was the the initial meaning of it. But. Ah, George Nicholas and Thomas Andrews ah published a book in 1989 I think it is called at a crossroads. It's about archaeology in Canada and its relationships with canadian first nations and. In the introduction footnote I think it's footnote number 4 they talk about indigenous archaeology and they say here we define indigenous archaeology as archaeology by with and for indigenous population. So i. 12:51.13 Joe Borrowed the term from from George and Thomas and I they weren't put out that I borrowed the term because I did I do give them credit for the definition and for the use of it. But I I think i. Happened to be at the right place at the right time. Um with everything that had come out everything that had happened with the development of the tribal historic preservation programs changes to the um. National historic preservation act that gave tribes much more power. The basically tenure anniversary of the native american graves protection repatriation act all those things happening at at a time when people were. Already listening to tribal voices in many different ways, many different concerns. So it was um again I consider myself to have been very lucky and to be in the right place at the right time. And to be able to tell a story that some people needed to hear and that other people really wanted told. 14:12.68 archpodnet You gotcha I mean to the year two thousand was pretty pretty interesting because your book came out. You have Rogers article about oral traditions coming out as well as a case study for you know, looking at oral traditions like you would any other sort of historical data and and critically analyzing. Those for factual information. Um, but do you still had some holdouts that weren't very thrilled with the approach mason comes comes to mind. Ah so I mean like how what I couldn't imagine. 14:52.15 archpodnet Looking back? Ah, at your career and the amount of of crap you've you've gone through from from the profession. Um, starting you know as an undergraduate at oh you up until you know the the turn of the millennium As as.. It's almost been.. It's been a decade after Nacpa's past,, we're starting to see some um, non-forced collaborations and people like seeing the utility of working collaboratively as equal partners with shared power with indigenous communities and you're writing along with others. Um. 15:16.83 Joe Have ah. 15:26.75 archpodnet To get the field going like how you know what when when you see these reactionary critical approaches to what you're doing in in the two thousand s what's what's your own reaction as as you, you're dealing with the the critics of of the approach of indigenous archeology. 15:42.55 Joe I I try not to have too much of a reaction when people raise concerns about indigenous archeology to me. It's the conversation. That's as much as important as. What is being written or what is being said because as an undergraduate I was I would read the readings and I really didn't question. Critically what the writers were saying I I didn't know enough to say. I disagree with what this person said but I like the fact that people can discuss these things in a forum and I find that it really helps graduate students and undergraduate students. Better understand that there's more than 1 answer There's definitely more than 1 truth. There's more than one way of looking at things of different perspectives to me to me i. I like controversy in that regard so long as they're not ad hominem attacks and so long as people are willing to at least accept that others have perspectives that are just as valid in the past American Indians weren't given the opportunity to. 17:12.12 Joe Really give their perspective so far. Be it for me to believe that anyone should be censored and not be allowed to to give their opinion. Um, you know I've been very concerned about. 17:29.86 Joe Occasional practices of censorships and and even if I do not agree with the person who is making the particular statement I still feel that it's important for that statement to get published so that. Students can at least recognize that yes some people have opinions that may be a little bit outdated now and some people have some opinions that I don't agree with but I do believe it's important for others to understand. Why they feel they have those opinions. Um, you know it's I've I admit that when I first read Mason and others I feel like I would just shake my head and say ah. That's not what we're saying. That's not what we intend for this to be. We are not saying that this information is the only correct information we are saying that you know as scientists were taught to have multiple working hypotheses. And to preclude one just because it comes from a tribal person is is senseless. it's it's non it's not good science so you know, um, ultimately I think the conversation is much more important. 19:01.93 Joe Than what is being said. 19:03.79 archpodnet And all right, That's that's incredibly well put and as you're kind of you know you know part of my dissertation was like I have a whole chapter on you know, indigenous archeology. That's the longest chapter that I have out of all of this and you know really you know recently having gone through. 19:15.64 Joe What. 19:22.15 archpodnet Literature and and even though some of those conversations like Mason Mcgee or even more contemporary. Um Weiss. It's it's really been hard for me personally to not take those critiques. Personally because so much of my being an indigenous archeologist and the work that I do is is so personal to me and so it it feels like a personal attack and it's it's been like difficult to separate as you were so saying like. Now we're in a space where we can respond and that we do we we can interact with these folks in a professional way. But it's still you know, struggling not to hold my research close to my chest and kind of you know, keep it out of distance and and be able to have those conversations without feeling like a personal attack. It's. And I know ah other you know, young, indigenous scholars are struggle with those same reactions of reading some of these folks because you read Mason Mcgee and you're like how are you getting this idea that um that Joe um chip and and George and Roger are advocating for just. Only listen to indigenous archeologists. The oral traditions are the only things that Mattered. It's just like really like why were those kind of not you know frameworks coming from that they're so afraid of of bringing indigenous people to the to the table. 20:50.22 Joe Yeah, it. It can get concerting and it can get painful at times I I recognize that there are some people who take this so very personally because they hold it so very dearly and so very. Deeply within themselves. It is part of who they are and so to believe that a colleague or someone who is supposed to be a colleague is attacking and does not see the utility of at least. Thinking about Alternatives. It gets frustrating. It gets scary I have known some people who have been very angry for a long time at a lot of different people because they could never let it go ah and to me Anger. Can become counterproductive. It will color everything that one writes everything that one reads interpretations become skewed toward Anger or or toward the the worse rather than trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Um, and and I admit that's not the person I am I I don't get angry often I've been angry a couple of times and I I never I never write I never email. 22:26.43 Joe Anything that I've written that I'm when I'm angry I know better than that. 22:33.81 archpodnet I absolutely though that's a sage advice for everybody. You know you know you can't take back something once you hit send. That's why I've got some really good advice from ah my my dissertation share. You know he's like you know, whatever you want to write when you're angry put it in you know Apple notes first and then put it away. Because then you can't send it. You know so I I totally understand that um, kind of moving away from from the early two thousand s as as indigenous archeologies and more people have have um, begun. 22:51.48 Joe Yep. 23:08.68 archpodnet Using it as a methodological and theoretical framework and just becoming you know a practice and we've seen the you know quiche supernaught Sarah Gonzalez Sonja Adela and these other figures kind of come in begin to use the um to to contribute in meaningful ways to to the literature. Um. As you moved into the the 2010 s ah, you know how has um I guess like now that I've seen you know first we've talked about the dismissal of indigenous beliefs. Forced collaboration people beginning to use it. But now I've seen experiences where it's it's kind of being like collaboration is now like a checkbox you have to fulfill rather than something you you want or should do it's kind of like now everyone wants to do it or or says they do it. How do you Navigate that space as as an indigenous scholar with kind of saying now I don't even know how to describe the approach because it's not necessarily the genuine collaboration. It's ah now having to do it in order to get a job or to get the research approved like how do you figure out. Those who are generally meaningful in working with and for indigenous communities rather than doing it for their own personal gain and. 24:34.58 Joe It's very difficult to figure out I agree with you I've noticed that there are people who talk about collaboration and they talk about reaching out to tribal folk to to get their opinion on certain things. Often that collaboration really is with 1 or 2 tribal individuals. It's not a full collaboration in terms of working with I hate to it's difficult to say on a tribal level. But. I think that there are a lot of people who have found people who will work with them and they welcome them as their collaborator and so in some ways. Um it is a hollow action because. Many researchers know what they want and so what they want is to collaborate with someone who will let them do what they want to do rather than asking the question I would like to work with you in a way that will be beneficial to you. And your tribe how can I help you and there are some of those a colleague that I work with in Japan hirafumikato has been very much that type of a person that he would like to work with the inu communities on Hakaido island. 26:05.26 Joe To help them find a way to make the japanese population more aware of their issues contemporary issues as well as the the historic and their history issues. So he's very much involved in. Trying to find ways to collaborate with the I new community. But as with here in the United States part of the issue is defining that community which community are do you work with. Are you working with say in the United States under federal law. You have to work with the elected officials and the elected officials can allow you to work with traditional leaders or they can tell you yes you need to work with traditional leaders. But you need to work with us as well and sometimes traditional leaders are almost diametrically opposed to elected officials because they each have different jobs. Elected officials their job is to basically see to the economic health of the tribe traditional leaders very often. Their role in responsibility is to see to the religious social and. 27:38.96 Joe Metaphysical Health of the tribe and so they each have different um spheres to through which they should be working so collaboration if it's meant to be um, needs. Needs to start from the individual out. Um I've had people again that I know who have said I have this great project that I want to do but I can't get any tribe interested in it rather than saying this tribe wants me to do this project. And I I don't know if I can do it because I'm not really interested in it rather than saying this tribe wants me to do this project and I think I can find something of interest on my own to help. Fulfill or fill out the project. Ah and many people just don't have the necessary experience to help it move Beyond just that very superficial level. It's a difficult thing to do. 28:50.64 archpodnet I Absolutely I know it's been now that I'm on ah the graduate committee for Iu and I'm I'm getting to look at graduate applications and having those conversations of seeing people apply or want to do collaborative projects or do indigenous archeology. It's like. You're master student How in the hell and in 2 years. Are you going to build a meaningful relationship with the community to do that approach because in an indigenous archeological approach one that is for by and with indigenous communities like that's a lifelong commitment and and one as you said where the tribe has the power and and basically. You know they tell you what they want and that's been something I haven't you know with with my own community back in Pawnee You know they've they've asked me to do stuff and I've kind of drop everything to go to go do it because at the end of the day. That's who all my works for everything that I want to do you know? That's that comes separate as. As an indigenous person like I'm a servant to the Pawny nation like that's my role like I don't have ah I don't have a choice like I Do what they tell me to do. 29:47.10 Joe Ah. 29:49.56 Joe Exactly exactly and in many ways that's why it's important for there to be tribal people. Indigenous archaeologists people who do have those long-term relationships that can help. Masters students understand how the process works that can perhaps try to help the masters students be a part of ongoing projects so that they can learn how it works and maybe even develop some short-term ah relationships. That they can parlay on down the line into something long term. Um, it was very difficult for very for the majority of the first generation of indigenous archaeologists. Ah. To try to find those mentors to find the people that could help them better understand how these things work and to give them positive examples to to follow through Larry Zimmerman Zimmerman is is one of my favorite examples. He's one of my favorite people. George Nicholas is another one of my favorite people. They are just tremendous people who have gone out of their way to make things happen to to help other people move more fully along and to move this discipline this field. 31:24.17 Joe On further along. 31:26.77 archpodnet I the first time I met Larry I was so excited I was at the essay native reception in Albuquerque and I walked up and I was like Dr Zimmerman my name's Carlton Gover I'm a pawne archeologist and he just like shook his head. He's like dot another goddamn pawney and I just started laughing. Um. 31:43.14 Joe Um, yep. 31:43.91 archpodnet But yeah, all right? So all right? Everyone we'll be right back with segment 3 um the live froms podcast here with ah Dr Joe Watkins