00:00.61 archpodnet And we're back here at episode one thirty nine so kind of capping capping this off Dr Watkins in this last segment. Um. What are some current research projects and publications you got in the works for the next round of indigenous archeologies and in in the decade of 2020. 00:21.88 Joe Um, well so I first started working in Hakaido in 2007 so I've been going back and forth there fifteen and a half years um when I first got back from hakaido in 2007 I said I'm going to write a book. Um, and the title of the book is indigenizing Japan um, basically it's the history of japanese relationships. With the I knew community of hakao and hansu. So for the last fifteen years I have been talking about I have been saving articles I've been talking to people and looking at things. So my 1 year in Hakao was. Theoretically was so that I could write this book so that I could get it finished but for the last six months I've been doing a lot of other things I've given a couple of presentations to ah, a couple of i-new communities on tribal membership. Tribal enrollment um looking at tribal economic development of the Choctaw nation and all these things that the the I knew various I knew communities are interested in so ah for the next six months 01:51.34 Joe I hope to be um, completing that book or at least a manuscript of that book that I can take to a publisher right now. There's very few english um volumes. On the inew There are a couple from the late 80 s and early ninety s there are quite a few on archaeology joman pottery or or um hakaido archeology. But there's really nothing that pulls together the the deep history. Of the japanese archipelago the development of the archaeological cultures that have become historically known as the I knew. Um, and there's some archaeological. Cultures saumman oakhost and and other cultures that are probably recognizable as the precursors of the historic I knew but right now the general japanese population. Has no understanding of of what those agriculture or those agriculture what those archaeological cultures really mean so I am hoping to be able to provide a ah manuscript. 03:23.52 Joe Written in such a way that it will serve the english-speaking english reading culture. Well but also might be translatable into japanese so that the general population of Japan. And have a better understanding of what it means to be I knew what it has meant historically to be I knew and what contemporary I knew populations in Hakaido and on hanu. Ah, the kind of discrimination. They. Currently encounter and have encountered in the past. So um, that's my big project. Otherwise I have some smaller writing projects chapters on um, looking at how um, more recently. 04:21.44 Joe Excavations at cooper's ferry in Idaho Idaho uncovered some projectile points about 16000 years old that the excavators said oh they look like the jo man projectile points from hakaido. So people are now starting to say oh well Paleoindian probably came from Hokkaido again much like during the case of the ancient 1 when some people said oh well maybe the most closest living population. Of the ancient one are the anu. So um, I'll be giving a presentation and a writing a paper about the problems of trying to create. False dichotomies using technologies and and trying to say them in such a way that they become too dumbed down to where people make some really far-reaching interpretations of what they mean so again trying to help archaeologists better. Um. Save what they mean instead of saying sound bites too often. 05:37.89 archpodnet I understood um do the I knew have stories of like relatives that kept that kept going east. 05:47.92 Joe No none that I have been able to determine um, many of the I news stories were collected in the 1890 s by Missionaries Eighteen eighty s 1890 s there are some. Other ainu stories that have been collected There are some individuals who maintain some of the ainnew stories. But many of those stories talk about as with many tribal members creation in place. That they were created in place by the the kmuys the the gods above um and so then I think some of what the current genetic information is saying is that hope. Possibly thirty thousand years ago there was a population that split apart that one group ah moved to the south and east along Kamchatka sahaleen. 07:01.43 Joe Um, into that area which is now called herkaido and that population eventually um became the group that we currently call the anew there was some other genetic in mixing in there. But. At least the base population probably came somewhere from Siberia Lake bakal that area and another branch of that population moved to the north and the east and became a. Ah, group of the population that contributed to the populations that we now recognize as native american um, there's there's been genetic change. There's been time. There was some sort of a genetically. They believed. There was a time when the population actually lived in Beringia and on the land bridge for ah, a long enough period of time that they stopped interacting with other populations. Ah right now. 08:16.11 Joe the the genetics ah I don't think we know enough yet those the genetics is giving us some very broad strokes but we don't have a large enough population to be really assured that what we're saying is true. Most of these are. Derived from individuals and our individual genomes and genetics are questionable at best still it. It helps flesh out that story of forty thousand years ago but so long as we don't believe it is the story or the only story I have no problems thinking about genetics as another chapter to kind of help us tell the stories. 09:04.37 archpodnet And understood. 1 thing I did want to talk to you about is this being and becoming a indigenous archeologist which was first edited by George Nichas came out in 2010 and that had. It's a compilation of indigenous archeologists talking about why and what they do as indigenous archaeologists and and you were a contributor to that and there was only 36 contributors on and the twenty ten volume and you and and George. Are coming out with a ah sequel so how many indigenous archaeologists and and and for those listening it's not just north american indigenous but there are folks from South America Africa Polynesia and that in that first one. So what I guess 2 questions what made you and George decide to come out with a second. Volume and and how many contributors have you guys wrangled in for this one. So. 09:54.90 Joe Well, we initially George said um that he felt that there are still so many people out there whose stories need to be told that we recognize the initial book. Provided a lot of mentors for others people who could better understand and recognize that much of the issues that they are encountering in grad school or getting the degrees. They're not the only ones in the world who have experienced those that have. Had the same questions or have been told the same thing so George decided that time was right to to start the second edition. Ah we I think we currently have 43 44 chapters that we are working with. We have maybe 15 or 20 others that we had contacted who told us that it was not a good time for them to be able to participate but that if volume 3 ever comes about they would like for us to. Um, contact them again. Ah we we don't know what we're going to get until we finish it. Um, one of the issues is that we recognize that for some people like we have a couple of authors who are writing. 11:25.69 Joe From South Africa who don't recognize indigenous in the same way that we do in that they don't recognize indigenous as meaning the first people of an area because they've seen the way indigenous has been used. And a political sense to take land away from probably from people who should have had access to it. Um, so it's been seen as a political term in some circumstances. Ah. So we have started by not defining the term indigenous George and I will create a foreword which will discuss all the different aspects of indigenous indigeneity and how it. Varies across the globe and I think that's 1 thing that many people don't recognize or don't realize is the different perspectives that people bring about what it means to be indigenous. Some people say I'm not indigenous I'm Choctaw or I'm um, Sami. So or you know again as most of us we identify with tribe first. Um and then we have 1 author whose sister ridiculed him when he said that he was indigenous because she said you're not indigenous. You're this tribe. 13:01.90 Joe And so he doesn't really claim to be indigenous because he's tribal so we have all sorts of different people who are offering all sorts of different perspectives about what it means to be of the blood if you will in various countries various areas. Um, so we keep looking. We continue to look. We ask people if they know of individuals who whose story would help um, illuminate things in their country. We are still woefully underrepresented. Both in South America and and in Africa um, we need more people from ah Northern Europe the Fino Scandinavian countries australians fairly well represented new zealand atera ora is fairly well represented. But we recognize that until we can get a hundred authors that we really have to cut back on. Ah then we'll need to keep looking. 14:13.85 archpodnet And well all right? and so ah, kind of rounding out this interview. What what is your vision or hope or what do you see happening with indigenous archeologies coming up in the future. 14:28.94 archpodnet I Guess what? Yeah what are you excited about? you know so. 14:29.74 Joe Um, ah good question I think that the things that the future I see for indigenous archeology is exciting in that Um, in some ways I'm hoping. As other people have written in the past. So. It's not just my hope I'm hoping that indigenous archaeology stops being something exciting I Hope it becomes something that is so every day So Ho hum that people do indigenous archeology without. Thinking that it's somehow different from archaeology general Archaeology I like the idea of questioning whether or not it's still needed whether the at what point in time will the next generation or the generation of Archaeologists. After that have it so ingrained that working with tribal people is what you do collaborating communicating consulting all these things that you do on a day-to-day basis. That's that's normal Archaeology. And so I'm hoping that eventually my book indigenous archaeology sort of falls to dust and I I don't care whether it ever gets sighted again so long as people continue to practice. 16:04.38 Joe What other people have helped expand that idea into it was it was a germ of an idea that I borrowed from George Nicholas and Thomas Andrews and so many people have expanded it so many people have. Contributed contributed to making it more understood of what today's generation of archaeologists see its utility in being and in in those ways. It's not like I feel like I'm a father or a grandfather. Um. But in some ways I feel really like it was something that proceeded from to quote Shakespeare proceeded from a heat-oppressed brain. Ah from Macbeth but um, it was something that. Had to come out at that time and I'm really glad that it's reached a point where that there are so many people practicing it that it no longer is something that is quite. 17:11.65 archpodnet I understood and and since I have you here you know, like in the last segment you talked about these these people that you looked up to and and and like George Nicholas Larry Zimmerman and and others and for like my generation like a lot of us look up to you and now you might not consider yourself a grandfather but we like colloquially. Refer to you as Uncle Joe and and and in my circles with the other dig archeologists. It's like what's uncle Joe and Aunty Sana up to you know that's kind of how we see you guys is like those and not just in you know, ah, it's in a meaningful way because you. 17:32.82 Joe Ah. 17:36.99 Joe Yeah, yes, yes. 17:48.58 archpodnet Um, and and the indigenous archaeologists of your generation went through a lot from the field in the Academy just to have your voice heard and and allow. 18:01.56 archpodnet Scholars and professionals like myself the space that we are are way more are a much safer and welcoming environment to practice our our archeologies and use our tribal onologies in our research and that. Might not necessarily have been possible without the the work. The difficult work both academically but also like mentally and emotionally that you guys had to go through to to create this space that there's now so many more you know scholars of my generation. From all over in all these different departments where we're now at ah at a place where we have to question people's ah genuine How genuine they are in doing the collaborative work because now everyone is starting to do it and wanting to do it in a meaningful way and um, you know and especially with this last. 18:39.30 Joe Are. 18:52.61 archpodnet Couple of years were hiring indigenous anthropologists and archaeologists was was was a trend that's everyone started is like Pokemon you got to collect them all everyone needed to have an indigenous archeologist you know, um, and so you know that I have you I just really wanted to to thank you for 1 coming on the show and like doing all that. 18:59.65 Joe But. 19:11.20 archpodnet All that work and providing um the lexicon and the vocabulary and the and that that we use to help give ourselves a voice that you know as a. Indigenous archeologists coming from like we have a way of knowing and a way of doing that's sometimes hard to express or write down and we have you and Sonia and and Larry and others in George that we can look at your guys's work in the terms that you guys use and how you guys have done it and and use it to express ourselves. So I mean. It's just really awesome for me to have you on and to be able to talk with you about your career and the research that you've done and I hope to get to see you again in person eventually. But maybe when you get back from from Japan we can meet up at a conference at some point and and and get to see. Ah. Ah, future collaborations and then get some future work done man. 20:05.62 Joe Well thank you Carlton I appreciate it and I feel very honored to have the the term uncle thrown at me or to me um I will be at the essays will be flying back in March and April for those. So. Maybe we can meet up there if you're going to be able to make it to Portland I don't know if ah, ah. 20:23.54 archpodnet Ah I have to me and Wade Campbell you know we're we're the chairs of the committee of native american relations now and so we're hosting the native reception. It's on us so we'll be. We'll be there and we got a pretty. We got a meeting with with folks this week that we're hosting ah the portland native communities hosting us at the native center and so we have a we have a pretty big reception that ah we're we're looking forward to so excellent to have you there but ah so. 20:41.23 Joe Way Cool way cool. 20:49.63 archpodnet As always before we end the show Dr Watkins what are a couple sources these books articles videos that you would recommend for anyone interested in indigenous archeologies. 20:59.79 Joe Um, god is so difficult to say I of course I would look at just about everything Sonia has written about chattal haruk and and her work with their George Nicholas his encyclopedia. 21:01.20 archpodnet Learn. 21:16.60 Joe Articles on indigenous archaeology his book on at a crossroads really looks at the the origins and the relationships between the first nations of Canada and archaeologists there on anything and everything Larry Zimmerman has written. Ah I'm sorry um I wish I had sat down and said I've got to mention this book and that book and everything but you know there's been such a wide array of things that have been written. Um. 21:53.16 Joe Chip Colwell's work on plundered skulls and the ideas of the repatriation and how things have played out everybody you know, depending on what your interest is there's there's such a wide range of of articles and books that. 21:55.34 archpodnet Oh yeah. 22:13.15 Joe For me, it's difficult to to separate out 1 or 2 or 3 I think that you know whenever all you have to do is type in the term that you're interested in and add indigenous archaeology to it. And you will find some tremendous readings and the good thing is we keep getting more and more each year and I'm looking forward to to yours coming out at the end of this year and I I do want to I've been asked to. 22:43.13 archpodnet Out. 22:49.91 Joe Ah, play up the fact that the Smithsonian institutions handbook on a North American Indians just published volume one the introduction. Ah, it just came out I got my hard copy Today. It's a free download. Um, you can download the entire volume and they are asking us to let people know what I will do Carlton is to send you a link. Um, if you and if you can share that with your your friends. 23:19.86 archpodnet And okay. 23:25.78 Joe We would like every tribal member across the United States to have it to use it if they find utility for it for all the t hpos we're going to try to be sending out copies I have no idea how many are going to be sending out but um. We're going to try to get it all across the United States and that's something I'm glad to have been a part of. 23:52.40 archpodnet Absolutely and for our listeners as always all these resources will be accessible by web link in the episode description wherever you're listening to this podcast. Um, and then where can our listeners find you on on the web email address or. Social media I mean you look like a guy that has a Tiktok account. 24:11.50 Joe I don't do tiktok I used to have ah um, I used to have social media I used to tweet a little bit and I had Instagram accounts. But um, that went away couple of years ago. So i. Um, best place to find me probably email j watkins at the Ace Consultants Dot Com um and occasionally I show up on Pbs or um, I've been writing a a few. Short blogs for the global station for indigenous studies out at um hakao so that's been fun looking at my a little bit of my take on the culture in Sapporo and. And what it means to be sort of a american indian archaeologist in Japan little bit different. So. 25:11.91 archpodnet I bet I bet um and then lastly we always ask this question all of our guest. Um Dr Watkins if given the chance again would you still choose to live a life in ruins. 25:25.27 Joe I Would I think if if I were given the chance I would live a life in ruins. But I might live a different life I I really wanted to do experimental archeology and I would like to to get back into doing that in some ways. I'd like to expand my traditional technology skills. But yeah, definitely I would live a life in ruins. 25:50.81 archpodnet Absolutely well. Next time we do a weapons ballistic experiment I'll keep you in mind and send an email if you want to throw out lads at things and. 25:58.77 Joe Would love that that would be a blast. 26:01.61 archpodnet Absolutely well everyone we just interviewed Dr Joe Watkins you can find him on email at J Or J not at let me redo that. Well everyone we just interviewed Dr Joe Watkins you can reach out to him via email at Jay Watkins at the ace consultants dot calm and as always you can find all of ah the resources that we've mentioned websites that we mentioned and Dr Watkins's email in the episode description. And with that please be sure to rate the podcast and provide us with any feedback whichever podcasting platform you're using to listen to the show. We get your emails. We really appreciate. Ah, all the feedback and everyone's amazing comments and with that we are out.