00:01.80 David Howe Everybody's careering if you believe in yourself. 00:04.81 archpodnet Chris edit that out please. Ah. 00:08.80 David Howe Ah, recording. Ah yeah. 00:16.57 David Howe So leave it in leave it in. 00:17.19 archpodnet Oh God is every portal. There's context to that Anyways, Um, well. 00:17.53 connor Um, yeah, clip it. 00:28.20 connor Welcome back episode one forty five of life ruins podcasts or talking vikings or giggling or having a good old time. Ah, we did want to continue our conversation. Um, and talk about a little bit about the occupation of Iceland and Greenland by the vikings except for Carlton's keeling over in Laughter. No, you're good. You good. They definitely made it. 00:53.10 David Howe Yeah, my bad. 01:00.70 connor Ah, Greenland and Iceland spent some time over there. 01:05.20 archpodnet And yes, so after getting to England in France they kept going they kept going west ah there's a couple of of of reasons for that one of which is still that desire to find more farmland as. Alliances and boundage are being drawn up in england there are still groups of scandinavians who are still seeking farmland and um, trying to find land. That's that's hasn't been quote unquote claimed yet. So we have early. Um. 01:36.39 archpodnet Ah, for those that know their geographies Iceland is a small island in between small ish island in between the british isles in Greenland and. 01:44.53 David Howe Also one of the only places on Earth not colonized by indigenous peoples First when the Europeans got there. They were the first to get there. 01:57.26 archpodnet Making them indigenous. Um hope juxposition. Yeah, okay, ah so they get to ah they get to Iceland. 01:59.59 David Howe Ah, oh careful with that one bro. 02:12.42 archpodnet Been between like eight seventy to nine thirty Ce so this is after they're you know raiding england and 100 when the first viking rates show up so about like a hundred years later um they're pretty well situated between nine thirty and 1200 um and they kind of continue on as like. The holdouts of non-christian day of of scandinavians from about 1200 to 1262 right? So like and there's occupation a little bit. Um after that and basically in 1262 they um, become part of the norwegian rule. So that's when that ends. So basically they kind of come under like the the country of Norway the kingdom of Norway they become under norwegian rule in 1262 so they get there 100 years after they start rating England but then Greenland's a little bit different so green. So. Basically another one hundred years later in the late 19169 SCe that's when we start seeing vikings in Greenland and they last there until like the fifteenth century. Not a great place to be a farmer and this is where we in both Iceland and Greenland especially Greenland. 03:09.83 David Howe Huh. 03:20.83 David Howe Whoa. 03:26.53 archpodnet Not very green. They struggle pretty hard in their farming practices. They try to go back to like ancestral farming practices in in Scandinavia because they're really trying to make it work. Um, it's not as great there and they are interacting with inuit in Greenland. 03:41.94 David Howe I srailings. 03:45.70 archpodnet Yes. 03:47.35 connor Yeah, so you you we do have good evidence for that and you know presumably eventually they they look a little bit more west. Um, and there are anecdotal things talking about. 04:03.87 connor Um, either maps or oral histories about that They that people think Reference North America Specifically the there's a guy the the Vinland map and the Vinland sagas. 04:12.64 David Howe Yeah. 04:22.39 connor So there's kind of. 04:22.62 David Howe And Venland is vaguely made out to be Newfoundland um, and then lunsa meadows is there which is confirmed to be a norwegian or nor settlement. But ah, it's not quite sure if that's the one that Lee for um. Torvald Erickson was that. 04:40.49 connor And that and the dating doesn't really line up what they talk about in. They're kind of in the sagas. Yeah, that's so the beginning evidence of of vikings in North America 04:44.67 David Howe In the sagas and. 04:58.70 connor Isn't solid to to start out with so and there's also another guy. Um, what's his what's his freaking name. Ah even Norton Horseford who's a chemist and part time Scrooge Impersonator who believed that. Um, there's a legendary settlement called norum bega. 05:17.28 connor Um, that appears on kind of sixteenth century maps and he thinks he found that in North America made a plaque for it made a building really went ham on it even though there's not really a ton of evidence but he spent the money and thought it was so. 05:35.12 connor Those are kind of the anecdotal evidence of vikings getting to North America 05:40.90 archpodnet Yeah, and just for reference like the first legit map that we know of that that has cartography of of Vinland is 15 3 15 oh 3 by a Genoese Map maker it's called the Canaro Map um it mentions a site of vinland in the first time in history. So that's that's confirmed so fifty know through we do have it and that's only like what 9 years after Columbus gets to hispaniola. Oh yeah, so I mean that was pretty quick once. 06:10.14 David Howe 11 years yeah 06:16.36 archpodnet Once europeans really found came in contact with with north America um, but yeah, there is definitely a confirmed viking site in Newfoundland as a very short occupation I'm trying to find the date for it real quick but it's it's. Burials there and some of those remains are fucking filled with stone projectile points. So ah, they didn't get along with the locals. 06:42.80 David Howe Ah. 06:43.15 connor Yeah, so I think I think the latest I think the latest dates are the 2021 article that is we'll put in the show notes says that the the beginning date of Norse activity is 1021 a d 07:00.81 archpodnet M. 07:01.12 connor Um, assuming and and you know they really only think it and articles say they only lived there for at least like 20 years there's this really sh yeah and we're out. 07:10.87 David Howe And then we're like as they working then they found coins there. Um. 07:14.99 archpodnet Yeah, it was very quick. It's at the end of the viking age and also you have to contextualize like how those ships the viking longships are great but the journey from you know. Scandinavia you have to go to England then you have to stop off in Iceland and you have to stop off Greenland like it's just not. They don't have the ships meant for that long distance continuous trade especially in the North Atlantic which is not fucking fun to sail many times of the year 07:44.12 David Howe Say that. 07:45.20 connor Now like the storage is on those things is like on those large like ah boats you have Columbus on or large galleons you have the ability to store tons of supplies so you can make those long journeys and and survive well when you get to the location that you actually get to. 07:54.73 archpodnet Now. 08:00.35 David Howe You got to drop some of the axes to fit some more water on that ship. So it's probably all the handle is projectile points in him. 08:02.42 connor So yeah, yeah. 08:09.33 archpodnet Little little margin for error with the viking ships. Um, and it's just when there and it seems like predominantly they're they're using Newfoundland for timber. 08:18.83 David Howe Um. 08:19.95 archpodnet They already have access once they're like brought into the larger european sphere of influence like they have access to timber so like it becomes they don't need it anymore like once they're brought in as a european player. Have access to timber they have access to farmland like they don't need people in newfoundland anymore fundamentally and people have been situated now in Greenland and Iceland for like one hundred two hundred years at this point and they're they're good like there's no reason to keep going and especially what it seems like the contact with. 08:41.11 connor Yeah, um. 08:54.32 archpodnet Um, indigenous first nations in Canada wasn't very positive. So note. 08:57.77 connor Yeah. 09:01.21 David Howe Anecdotally I don't know if this is true I've never read it but I've heard this in multiple like history. Thanks is that the vikings brought brought um like traded in some of the areas milk for like other like goods that the the natives had. 09:07.60 archpodnet Canceled. 09:17.28 David Howe And like the natives got super fucking sick because they have no enzyme to digest lactose and they were like thought they were poisoned by them so they attacked rightfully. So last time I got dairy poisoned I wanted to shoot someone myself too. Um. 09:31.59 connor Yeah, that sounds like a that sounds like a Thanksgiving story to me. 09:32.00 archpodnet I've never heard that before and that sounds fascinating. That's that's that's like yes, the home of ancient aliens. 09:34.97 David Howe I Saw it in like a like a documentary on History Channel and usually they're not too off but like that might not be true, but look it up. You know what? you might be right? Yeah, but history. 09:47.15 connor Yeah, that sounds like sounds like they all like you know, hung out together and sang come on. 09:52.69 David Howe History channel pre 2010 had some good stuff. 09:57.80 archpodnet But in terms of like who are the first europeans that we know interacted in in North America it is definitely the scandinavians with this settlement Greenland counts as North America they've known about it. Whatever um. Once again, we kind of hit on this several times in the podcast like some of the last people to figure out that the western hemisphere existed were central europeans or western europeans. Um, however, that hasn't stopped. Ah. Settlers in the Americas from reinventing how long in particular vikings have been in in the Americas so we kind of want to talk about this because we talked a little bit about salutin this isn't salutrin but in terms of like a pseudoareology and pseudoscience. 10:42.23 connor Yeah I. 10:50.39 archpodnet And and taking these ideas of like what's all already a very fascinating cool piece of human history of scandinavians interacting with in North America now they're taking it a step too far. 11:03.90 connor Yeah, this this is what pisses me off is like we have vikings in North America like for fuck's sake. Can we just keep that can we just enjoy it. Can we rally behind it. Love it. But instead we always have to or people are always going to take that back and ah apply it for their own. Nefarious goals and or rewriting history. So just just enjoy the vikings for fuck's sake. 11:26.15 David Howe I see several websites that point to it one of them being citing a podcast so we can't say that that's not true. You know the one named everything everywherere dot com and let's see there's there's several when I pull up a Google search so it may just be a rumor but like. 11:41.38 connor And for those people that are confused about what David is talking about. He's talking about the the thing that we talked about like 10 minutes ago did 11:51.24 David Howe Yeah, um, sorry I was looking it up. But yeah and it does say here on the vinland Wikipedia pages they traded milk. So um, anyway I don't know if that that one little story is true. We can't say that they didn't get lactose intolerant poisoning. 11:58.97 connor Confirm milk. Okay, that's been established. Thank you for. 12:11.78 David Howe Do you think they got gluten intolerant poisoning. 12:13.26 archpodnet Christ gluten and I think it's just if you're lactose intolerant that assumes the poisoning same with that. 12:22.77 David Howe Oh they taste big to our white men came and they gave me gaze. 12:23.70 connor Um, intolerance equals poisoning. Um. 12:30.40 archpodnet Jesus? okay, but and so there there are things that pop up. Ah that are specific to this this pseudoscience behind pushing back or reinventing where and when vikings interacted in in North America in particular and it it kicks up its head recentset. It's kicked up. It's ah it's becoming more prominent in american discourse because for some reason white supremacy is really globbed on to vikings and. Romanticization and mythos of vikings as this warrior race and so like it's becoming more prevalent today this idea so it's stronger linked to identity. But um, so as as Connor mentioned there's this vinland map and can you what what is the Vinland Map Connor 13:17.86 connor So actually don't have that off the top my head David do you know this right. 13:24.95 David Howe Um, the vinland map. It appears to be a map of a land of vines. 13:25.48 connor Yeah. 13:36.73 archpodnet Thank you David! um. 13:40.20 David Howe I Don't know what the answer is ah Vinland Map Oh look at this map. 13:43.14 connor They no you gett? Um, like we had mentioned before like we had mentioned before Vinland Map is associated with the saga of Eric the red um leaf ericson etc. And. 13:59.68 connor It's it's suggesting and describing locations that could be in North America specifically 14:07.76 archpodnet Right? So it's a fifteenth century map. Um, and it yeah allegedly shows locations as Connor said Newfoundland yeah. 14:16.72 connor Yeah, so it's I feel like we went backwards there I. 14:23.73 archpodnet It's a forgery we we figure that out. So yeah, there's this hole. There's the vinland map. It's supposed to show biking settlements. It's and from the you know fourteen hundreds turns out, it's a twentieth century forgery. So yeah, it it it. Ah. 14:33.26 David Howe Now. 14:33.36 connor Who. 14:38.54 archpodnet First popped up in one fifty seven when yale university acquired it um, was supposed to be this genuine pre-columbian map that also shows Africa Asian Europe on a Landmas South of Greenland that's labeled Vinland um and it gets tied in with ah. At this point people have ah have an idea that europeans had visited that area in the eleventh century. But um, in 2018 it was recently you know like recently confirmed forgery. The vinland map is bullshit. Um. 15:03.58 connor Yeah. 15:12.56 connor What? Um, luckily there is another thing that has been proven a forgery the kensings Tin Rune stone. 15:21.57 David Howe Ah, yeah, classic. 15:22.62 archpodnet The yes I first learned about this on the history channel I forget what the what it was about but it wasn't curse of Oak Island but they did a whole thing I think was just bikings in America um, but. 15:33.17 David Howe Um, didn't he put the runes like as English words wasn't that like how they debuced it. 15:38.72 archpodnet No, so was modern. It was like so they brought in a bunch of Exacon Concographers conifers. Whatever they do and the the norse runes were much later runes than what the age was claimed. 15:45.19 David Howe Um, lexiconner is lexicon area. 15:57.98 archpodnet Um, so basically there's a farmer in Minnesota or is it Wisconsin yeah maybe I think is minnesota um farmer finds. It basically like upturns a Stump. 16:03.84 connor 1 of those. 16:06.13 David Howe Ah, Minnesota Vikings would make sense. 16:15.66 archpodnet And in the stump itself is runestone and using archeological analysis one we know that it wasn't in the ground very long because you don't have the roots aren't leaving um the residue that they would have if the stone had been in there for like hundreds of years like all the soil. Soil markers everything doesn't work towards that and then second when they they took a gander at it. It's like wait. Those runs are not from the eleventh century or before like those are very much runes that modern people knew of at that time and I think 1898 is when it was discovered. Yes, 1898 Turns out the Kensington Rune Stone the guy that found it is fucking scandinavian and so like Minnesota and Wisconsin those are parts of the United States that were heavily occupied colonially by scandinavians and you if if you look for it closely like the dude that found it like actually new runs. Like it was kind of you know he he invented this the guy that found it is the one that placed it. It is an absolute hoax. Um, if it drinks milk like a norwegian I guess. 17:14.80 connor Yeah. 17:18.80 David Howe If it quacks like a nor region. It's probably. 17:21.89 connor I don't know what I don't know origin there? Yeah, but they they they discovered this and disproved this pretty quickly. It was like twelve years later we're not, we're not winning into 2018 this time which is which is good but it hasn't been fully not accepted by groups in. Ah, minnesota wisconsin etc. There's ah, there's still. There's a museum today that kind of glorifies. It. 17:47.71 archpodnet Oh my god you you can go to the website. It's it's fucking crazy because the website. Yeah, it's the Kensington it's the runestone museum and they don't mention. It's a hoax at all. Um, it's a very it's a it's a bad bad website. 18:00.26 David Howe Hey. 18:04.64 archpodnet Just says we have the Kensington Rune Stone in our museum the rootstone and the enduring mystery of its origin continues to be the hallmark of the runen stone museum. It's like no, it's debunked in 1910 like we all know it's bullshit like. 18:13.28 connor Well um. 18:13.58 David Howe It looks just like there rosetta stone. The guy was just trying to make a but it. 18:18.89 archpodnet I mean this is the dudes name. The discovery of the Kensington Rune Stone changed the life of olaf oman and his descendant forever like the dude is scandinav as fuck and we found that. Yeah now it is absolute bullshit and it is in Minnesota um, and many places in Minnesota. 18:28.83 connor Are. 18:34.48 archpodnet And the businesses there do have rune stones or vikings as identifying symbols like there's the minnesota vikings that is an area that was colonized by scandinavians I mean that that's the link like these people are bringing their culture with them and trying to like set as we've talked about on this podcast and archeology a lot trying to claim. Ancestry to a place and that was the way these people were doing. It's like oh look at these viking runestones they're they're capitalizing on the fact that people at this time after the Chicago world's fair whereas becoming more well-known that vikings had got here before Christopher Columbus pissed off the italian americans but the scandinavian americans loved it and they were kind of seeding the ground. Very much like the english did with um, pilt down man right? You know with the with the hoax of the first upright big brain Hominin in in england these people are doing the same to set themselves as and descendants of this land. They're like oh well. 19:13.50 David Howe Hilt down man. 19:27.00 archpodnet We don't feel bad about killing all the natives like there were already vikings here in Minnesota Eight hundred years ago 19:32.65 David Howe Ah, according to my 23 me I am 48 point seven percent northwestern european and I'm going to use that ah blood right? to say that I don't like that the mascot for Minnesota is vikings I want it changed I take offences. 19:44.95 archpodnet Is it northwest europe the English Isles 19:50.57 David Howe I'm looking at all of this and it says it could be norrawegia nor norwegia Norway Sweden Finland Germany France Netherlands Belgium Austria and Dora United Kingdom or Ireland so any of them how is is how is norse it's like halgar. Ah, but yeah. 19:55.82 connor Um. 20:01.88 archpodnet So just you're up So it's just Europe up. 20:09.52 David Howe Either way I take offense and I want it changed and I will tweet that right now. 20:12.85 connor But on that note we will catch you in the next segment where we. 20:16.67 David Howe Change it to the Minnesota Rune stones. 20:21.93 archpodnet Thank you David we'll be right back. 20:25.50 David Howe I didn't take my cloni today.