00:00.70 David Howe Just at our our um our thing does it. Okay Chris I'm gonna do an intro or Rachel I'm gonna do an intro here but I need you to play our intro music in the background of this Ah okay, so 3 2 1 my fellow ameragasters. Our nation isn't crisis. The homosexual, not not not not the homosexual. the the homo sapiens man they're coming into europe up from the mid gritddle east with their superior technology and behave really modemlyvi jeans. Well we neanderthal shorts we needer shorts to hear with our ability to make fire our ability to speak a foreign language. And make stone tools using the levitation technique not not not not levitation. But we're intelligent and complex man come on. That's why I've sent vice prena colata hairlipp to launch a full-scale attack on the homocarpathians and kick them out of natool territory even though they are extremely attractive and we love to sex time with them and smell their hair. 00:39.20 connor Yeah. 00:55.84 David Howe They have these bow and tarro card things not not not bow and Terro Cosman bow and arrow things man but bad dudes man they can launch their small and large pepe from long distances just like you know neanderthals use trusting beer. Not not not thrusting beers spears man we gotta get these guys. Don't worry though. Uncle president Joe Rogenthha is on the case because Indiana Jones illogically without the preserve shafts and the project miles. There's no way to know for sure if they even had joty jeb blow technologies not not that not below tech the but bow technology man sponge malarkey. 01:33.70 David Howe Today we're going to talk about a new paper. Yeah. 01:39.00 connor Um, you broke Carlton. 01:41.85 David Howe While you guys are doing the outline of I wrote that piece of gold. Okay, all right. 01:49.67 connor Ah, and for reference if you guys haven't seen it called Kyle Dun again Joe Biden impression it's the best. Oh. 01:57.80 David Howe So today we're going to talk about a new paper that came out called oh I guess welcome to episode one forty six of a life mirrors podcast ah Carlton you are muted. 02:01.98 connor You muted bud. 02:05.73 archpodnet And so we just had a conversation about being careful and David just starts off with the homosexuals are invading. 02:16.13 David Howe So I correct it. It was a homosexuals homo erectus man homo homo sapiens. Ah so here's the deal welld to episode one forty six of a life insurance podcast I'm your host David Howard I'm my co-host Conor Johnn and Carleton she'll give you over professor extraordinaryaire we're today talking about. 02:21.70 connor Ah. 02:36.10 David Howe Ah, new paper from lori mutts mets more a yankees fan and it's the bow and arrow technology of the first modern humans in Europe fifty four thousand years ago at Mandin France for those of you who don't know I'm gonna go ahead and read the abstract consensus and archeology has put hang on I need to zoom in on this. 02:45.44 connor Oh. 02:55.88 David Howe But 1 of you guys if you guys wanted it. Okay. 02:55.96 connor I don't don't read that. What's what's what's set the stage a little bit more. Yeah, we're we're gonna set the stage a little bit more. So um, the the time period that this paper is referencing is called the upper paleothic in Europe Carlton is still broken. Um, like some of these stone tool technologies. He's been thrown against the wall um thatper paleolithic in ah in Europe so we got at least 2 different species of. Humans right. 03:29.74 David Howe Ah, so we got to define species. But for the lack of a better term. Yes. 03:32.71 connor We have different types of human. 03:34.26 archpodnet We here we go again. We've we've got we've gone over this podcast before it's Homo sapi and anderthal lenses and hopo sa me. It's Hovo safety and safety and. 03:43.10 David Howe Yes, so same species just different subspecious species species as a long time ago. Yeah. 03:47.87 archpodnet What episode was that was like an early on argument about we did a promo too. There was a commercial that we recorded. Do you remember that. 03:51.79 connor Yeah. 03:57.54 David Howe We we did I do remember the promo hit lumpers and splitters. Um I'll just to to say really quickly. You got homo erectus leave Africa and they go into Europe into Asia those kind of evolve into their own things which are neanderthals and then Dennis ovans. And then modern humans are like constantly boiling and like interbreeding in Africa and then they leave and replace those neanderthal and denosovan populations and all endbreed together which they were all interbreeding so in a sense I would say we're all just Mutin Homemo erectus but for for the purposes of this paper. It's like there's neanderthals in Europe and then there's modern humans coming into Europe. 04:29.71 archpodnet Dagger Agree. What was that for. 04:34.91 David Howe But you guys agree. 04:37.51 connor Yeah, um, and we can that we are doing neanderthals and and Homo erectus are doing pretty distinct different stone tool technology um neanderthals are associated with the Mysterian Stone Tool tech. 04:49.80 David Howe Yes. 04:53.21 archpodnet Um, 51 04:55.16 connor Ah, lots of blades is that right? What's most staring. 04:59.42 David Howe Neathols think that ah Maerian is like the Neanderthal Tool Complex. That's not the level Ah Technique. It's just like you call it like Choppers Axes kind of bifacially looking things. Um, and like triangular points or I'm trying to think about it without looking on it. Yeah. 05:15.64 connor There are some blades associated with them too. Yeah, yeah, that's right Triangle points Um, Ah, both Ah, both of them have bi facial technology Homo Erectus does as well. But they are they look different than what Homo erectus is is using which is the Shulean Stone tool technology. Um I think they're they're more I don't know I feel like the people give. 05:43.39 David Howe Um. 05:51.60 connor Judgment on like the more primitive less primitive but they're just different technologies. Um. 05:57.42 David Howe Ah, yeah, and you could even like argue that you could separate the species like quote unquote species through their cultural complexes of tools more so than their like bodies. But I think the conventional wisdom would be to just separate them by their biology that's kind of what most people are familiar with. But. 06:05.20 connor Me. 06:15.54 connor Again. 06:17.29 David Howe Yeah, it took me a year to be able to make an actually on handaxe like just like without having to think really hard about it. So it's complex. 06:22.10 connor Yeah, and they're they're they're bifacially worked and you know the use analysis and impact fractures etc. Really show that they're these multi-use tools. They're the Swiss Army Knifes of. Stone to its technology for Homo Erectus Um i't think what else. So yeah, that that's that's kind of what's going On. Um, we don't yeah and we don't really we have evidence of Homo Erectus doesnt foray into. 06:39.37 David Howe Yeah, yeah. 06:49.87 David Howe Generally what's grip. 06:58.25 connor Into Europe but it's not like like battening down the hatches and really investing and and getting far. 07:06.43 David Howe Yeah, and as we were talking about before the show like homo erectus um is like more known for being an asian species where it's ho over gasster is more associated with Europe but I think Carlton pointed out. They're mostly just in Southern Europe like in Diaberan Peninsula so 07:22.57 David Howe Ah, can't recall off the top of my head but I just know that people lump them into 2 different species but they're kind of just the east and west variant. 07:30.54 connor Yeah, and if this is complicated to anyone out there. Ah, it's complicated to us as well I think we just spent what 30 minutes trying to align this perfectly and we still are not aligned perfectly. 07:40.24 David Howe Yeah, we're trying to talk about bow and arrow paper Carlton. Do you want to you want to introduce the paper. 07:46.81 archpodnet So isn't that for segment 2 07:50.62 connor Yeah, um, so that's what's going on in Europe around that. 07:51.40 David Howe Oh oh I'm sorry. Okay, um. 08:01.50 David Howe We should probably cut out the fact that we have no control over like the flow of this conversation. So let's back that up theory 2 1 um see yeah there the stone tool technologies they're using. Um so neanderthals are. Are more known for their thrusting spears as Uncle Joe near brogenthal said ah they as I said uncle Joe Rogenthal he um, they're more known for using thrusting spears and that's might be why their skeletons are extremely like battered. They think it might be interpersonal violence or it's just like. Ah, somewhat like they were falling all the time down cliffs it was the ice age. It's cold. They're wrestling a lot maybe or the more logical thing would be like you can't tell you can't distinguish interpersonal violence from walking up to a rhino and getting gored by it pretty like easily with a thrusting spear I mean you can see perry wounds on arms. Um, that happens sometimes but you also have to parry like an animal that's charging you. So its it's hard to determine. Um, but the point being they they use thrusting spears is not a lot of evidence and I would say not any of neanderthals using projectile technology. Um like they they just didn't have it. 09:12.45 connor And and and during this time there's not really good evidence for Homo Erectus using it either right? um. 09:22.13 David Howe Are the sho spears are those Homo Erectus I can't remember I think those are them up in neanderthal. But I think they're they're thrusting spears that would be shaya shay at all. Um, yeah. 09:32.78 connor Okay, so they're but they're not. We don't conventionally think of them as using projectile technology during this time. Um the the earliest evidence we have at least indirect for use. 09:41.30 David Howe Now. 09:50.22 connor Of the aolatl is from Australia from from monngo man and that's because of at latal elbow as out that what it is. 10:01.30 David Howe Yeah, so like that would be the biological evidence for it and like you can he unmutes to cough Um, ah at Littlel Elbow is like a distinct pathology that you see on Homo sapien. Ah. 10:05.80 archpodnet Sorry am I not muted sorry my met. 10:12.70 connor Ah. 10:18.98 David Howe Think it's their radius I want to say like down at the very like where the humorist meets the radius and Allna. It's like a spur that kind of grows on your arm from repeated use of throwing and at an atlatl um and Monnggo man in Australia has that. Um. And like mungo where they found his body and that's about forty two thousand years old but there's anecdotal and anecdotal just like the idea that neanderthal erts excuse me sorry that atlatl um like technologies existed for at least like 70000 or so years in Africa. But I can't for the life. Maybe remember the um the citation for that. 10:59.35 connor Good, but like the first like direct evidence we have of it where we actually have a dart attached to or ah, a stone point attached to a dart is seventeen thousand years ago and that's in yeah in France. 11:09.12 David Howe Either France or Spain or Germany. Okay. 11:15.72 connor Ah, where we actually get the preservation of that. Um, so it's it's believed to be the direct evidence is believed to be earlier than um Bo technology. 11:28.44 David Howe Yes, that would be the conventional wisdom. 11:33.73 connor Yeah, um, whereas so the earliest at least indirect evidence for the appearance of bow and Aero technology comes from us so suboo do cave. 11:47.23 David Howe South Africa yeah and that's an interesting one too because like they're like little blade looking things but they were found in like piled on top of each other in like what would have been like a quiver or a pouch. 11:50.60 connor Yeah in South Africa and it's around like seventy thousand years ago this is 12:06.10 David Howe So like they think that like because it's just where they were all laid in a similar direction like it'd be weird if they were just thrown into a bag but they were probably attached to the end of either sticks or something that you were like a rudimentary arrow I Think that's pretty good evidence of that but it could be. 12:23.11 connor And that's a that's combined with like useware to write and impact. 12:25.73 David Howe Um else I Believe yeah you swear and I believe there's Residue analysis on it too If I um might be conflating it with something else. But you guys can look that up. 12:34.51 connor Yeah, but we we don't we don't and that at that point we don't have ah a projectile point attached to a arrow that doesn't that that comes much later around ten thousand years ago in stillmore jeremy. 12:43.35 David Howe Absolutely not m. 12:52.16 connor So later um in theory than that a little technology but kind of coming from the same area which is which is really interesting I think that they're all kind of coming from the same area. 13:06.30 David Howe Yeah, and I also when I was doing my thesis on this like that think it was kind of interesting that like I was finding very similar dates for the invention of both um and like my thought on that would be like that's when you can see the stone versions of them. But if you just think about it if any like if there's a lot of things we could like postulate or like ponder about technology in the past and at-latl is inherently way more simple than stringing together a bow um and like making all the sinu and other it's just like just logically it's a similar simpler technology. We don't know like if that was embedded first or not but you could see like I guess just play with me here. There's just a sharpened long stick and then another ship stick that has like an l shape to it. You're throwing an outletle That's all you need, but an arrow is inherently more complex but you can also just have a wooden one. Um, so you wouldn't see that either? Um, so I would argue that the atlat all was a far older technology because it's just so much easier to to just make but we don't know that because like if they had some kind of cordage you could ah pretty much figure out like if I pull it tight. And like do that like the at the musicology guy we had was saying you could make like a jaw harp out of it too like we have no idea. 14:23.85 archpodnet I mean they're still both complex tools and comp and yeah and their compound I mean like it's easy to talk about these things today. But the the logical leap to make a six foot long dart. 14:30.75 David Howe They're simple machines technically. 14:44.83 archpodnet And attach it to another so like it's still extremely complex like theoretically like if like bare bones you looked at 2 to be like okay, yeah, that can see the bow being um. 14:58.63 archpodnet More complex than the a little but even just that first making the first odd Lal is still just like that's still a huge fucking transition. Yeah yeah, and they're more and we and that's they're more likely like. 15:07.80 David Howe Um, yeah, it. What. 15:08.00 connor Yeah, because like it's so different from like previous technologies where you don't have any sort of compound sort of technology. Um. 15:18.90 archpodnet Delivery system is different but without the atlaal dart which is also probably fleched and half did you don't get arrows so they're both very complex. So I mean just like just and that's not saying David's wrong because I'm not I'm just saying like for our audience for someone to come up with this. 15:29.37 David Howe Um, yeah, um. 15:33.36 connor Wrong. 15:38.32 archpodnet To be like what if I made this giant because I want to kill something but it's thirty feet away from me and I don't want to move you know like that's that's a huge leap in human thinking. 15:49.13 David Howe Yeah, because you're you're already throwing spears but like then you would just be like maybe launched it up your foot one day and you're like well that was cool like let me make something that replicates my foot then you're like oh there. 16:00.37 archpodnet But how do we know the earliest so do have dates for the earliest spear. 16:07.45 David Howe Ah, shown engine spears. The only thing I can think of there's probably some in Africa but again ho erectus probably just had sharpen sticks that they burned over a fire and we have no no way to see it. Um. 16:09.96 archpodnet Probably. Yeah, yeah, and and also like there's a there is a sampling bias definitely towards europe which is like what they were talking about earlier. Why do we see a lot more physical evidence in Europe it's because Europe is far more archeologically investigated. 16:25.38 David Howe Um, yeah. 16:31.37 David Howe And developed is it really. 16:32.81 archpodnet Then the second largest continent of the world. Yeah Africa is number 2 Asia Africa Norte America. 16:35.43 connor Yeah, yeah. 16:43.23 David Howe Oh I thought you met Europe I was like I feel like Europe's like the smallest um gotcha. 16:45.56 archpodnet No, no, no, no no Africa is huge and also rife with geopolitical conflict making it difficult and blah blah Blah Blah Yada Yada yada. 16:50.54 David Howe Yeah, and there's. 16:52.63 connor Yeah I was always I was talking with Todd at Todd Serbell and Spencer the other day and I was like you know, making that first step. Um, you know creating technology is hard I do think replication from there. 17:03.84 archpodnet That. 17:08.47 connor Is much easier like to reproduce it Um, but like oh that person was using a stick on another stick I think I can reproduce that and create it for myself. 17:09.39 David Howe That would make sense. Yeah. 17:20.84 David Howe Yeah, and like I would be curious to know like a baby would they figure out a lever technology first or would they figure out a spring technology first and like not to say that humans are infantile but like you just I'd be curious to know which 1 comes first I assume lever. But like with a toy that has strings on it. You also then have a spring so like don't know. Yeah. 17:44.80 connor Yeah, but that's that when we see these things invented. We kind of see them. It's widespread pretty quickly. It's not just like it's not a slow slow burn. It's it spreads pretty quickly which is really interesting. 17:52.10 David Howe Yeah. 17:59.52 archpodnet Well according to Graham Hancock it's because the atlanteans. 18:00.29 David Howe Yeah, um, um. 18:07.91 connor On that note. 18:15.79 connor We'll be right back.