00:00.62 archpodnet And I don't have an introduction like David I just I just do not have the capacity for that. But welcome back. The segment 2 of epiicidtle and 46 life earns podcast. So in the in the first segment we were setting the stage for you all on what is going on in Europe during the d. UP and we're not talking about the upper peninsula of Michigan we're talking about upper paleolithic. Yes, and so the impetus for this is a recent article that came out in science advances. It is a research article titled bow and Aero technology of the first modern humans in Europe fifty four thousand years ago at 00:26.75 David Howe Paleolithic. 00:40.60 archpodnet Mandarin France and this is by larae metz it all. Um and they don't have an abstract but I have an introduction. Um, do you want? Oh yes. 00:50.97 connor Do they have an abstract. It's like rippleo in. 00:54.22 David Howe I'm I'm looking right at it. 00:58.40 archpodnet Consensus and archeology is positive that mechanically propelled weapons such as the bow and arrow or spear throw dart combinations appeared abruptly in the eurasian record with the arrival of anatomically and behaviorally modern humans in the upper paleothic hashtag up I mean parentheses you after 45000 to 40 to two thousand years ago well Evan is for weapon. 01:01.36 David Howe Loud. 01:16.17 archpodnet You stirring the preceding middle playlet preceding Middle Paleolithic mp in your age remains sparse the ballistic features of Mp points suggest that they were used on handcast spears whereas upper paleolithic Lithic weapons are focused on microlith. Ah, technologies commonly interpreted as mechanically propelled projectiles a crucial innovation distinguishing up societies from preceding ones here. We present the early 7 for mechanically propelled projectile technology Eurasia from layer e of grot mandarin Fifty four thousand years ago in Mediterranean France demonstrated via useware and impact damage analysis. These technologies associated with the oldest modern human remains currently known from Europe represent the technical background of these populations during the first incursion to the continent I don't like how they say weapons. 02:02.30 connor Yeah, yeah, it's a buzzword. Yeah. 02:04.65 archpodnet So that's a loaded term that is ah. 02:08.35 David Howe It's buzzword. 02:13.16 David Howe I Don't necessarily have too many qualms with it. But I like I didn't think about that point until right now when you pointed out like we shouldn't like we should just say projectile technology or not weapon Yeah, a little more woke. 02:23.51 archpodnet Yeah, our tool. Yeah, like it's just like weapon to what no weapon to me just comes across as like hunting people implement. 02:38.80 David Howe Right? Well, that's what it is But yeah weapon weapon sounds more like killing other people where its tool sounds like you something to hunt. Um. 02:39.93 archpodnet But not even hunt just trying to kill people. 02:40.40 connor Yeah, it. 02:49.34 archpodnet Like I would I would bet it's more of you know hunting technology. 02:57.48 David Howe Much like a modern hunting rifle is a way of life and not a weapon That's right? ah. 02:59.83 archpodnet Hey it's my home defense rifle the I have my hunt I Yeah I have my I. 03:03.44 connor Your a are my semiau ar in for like a hundred hundred meters or would he a. 03:09.23 David Howe Yeah, you ever fired one I would if got to pick to defend a home with a 6 shooter and a r I'm on probably pick hair. But anyway. 03:21.60 connor Now you go shotgun shotguns the the foolproof. 03:24.69 archpodnet I just I would just use a Kentucky long rifle because fuck it might as well. 03:31.80 David Howe I Use a German shepherd. Um I'm going to use a blunder buss. But ah ya, ah shoot at their feet. Um, but anyway the ancient The ancient blunderbusses would be projectile. 03:32.53 connor I'm gonna use. Ah I'm gonna use a cannon. It's good for like 1 really big person. 03:35.26 archpodnet But just loaded with legos. But. 03:43.36 connor Ah, the scatter. 03:48.71 David Howe Mpps they're calling a modern project or mechanical projectile was what they saying? Ah um. 03:53.29 connor Oh that's let's tell you the you k guys right? The Mps. 03:59.25 David Howe Yeah, yeah, military police. What are they calling it? Um, it is ah Mp Middle Paleolithic Sorry anyway yeah, mechanically propelled projectile technology there we go? yeah. 04:05.37 archpodnet So yes I mean 1 of the big things here. Yeah, so they're suggesting that what they're seeing in this cave in France based on the Lithic debutage now like some of the things we talked about in the last segment. We're not There's no evidence for the wooden arrow shaft or fletching right? This is just analyzing the lithic technology and they're analyzing these points and suggesting that they're arrowheads. 04:41.77 David Howe Yes. 04:43.49 archpodnet So there's no so this is like circumsantial evidence which is great. We do that all the time in archeology. Um yep, however, like for our american audience which we're used to some of the most gorgeous and well-worked Lithic Technologies in the entire world. 04:47.78 connor And in the courts. 05:03.28 archpodnet The european points are you know? Yeah, they're very unfacial I like if I saw one of these in like an american context like David has said it looks like a blade or a scraper or shatter. 05:06.94 David Howe Um, we're much more blade. 05:22.12 archpodnet Um, but these folks are suggesting that these are arrowheads and they have some science behind it. But this is out of my wheelhouse. But I I get I Guess what? Ah what I'd like to say I'm sorry for getting up but what what I'd like to see is like a comparison of. 05:27.77 David Howe My mope sorry you. 05:30.71 connor Yeah, once once a once again. 05:40.55 archpodnet Because they have a table table 1 the values and statistical results for archaeological experimental ethnographic points ah would very much like to ah so see these data in comparison to like North American Blade Technology like the shatter and scrapers and see what the relationship is. 06:03.27 David Howe Um I would like to say looking at them one Europe has a lot more I mean they mostly have blade technology. So like this isn't out of the norm for them here I'd be like what especially if this was like a pre-clobus site. But. 06:12.90 connor Okay. 06:19.31 David Howe I we should probably talk about in the third segment this site for like an it's ah my first impression is paper. It has a complex. They're uniformly made tools and there's tools. There's more than four of them that are definable as tools you can see the the notchings are the the flake scars on them and things that's a tool. So like this is the kind of stuff we're talking about when we see an article of something in the Americas that's really old. It doesn't look like this. Not to say that it should look european I'm just saying like this is like okay, there's a culture of people here making this preclobuites often are just like you got to squint your eye and look at it anyway. Regardless. These look just like what those things in South Africa are in that little quiver like formation. So to me I think that is like fine. You don't even need like adhesive really, you could just wedge these things into the end of a stick and use it as a thrusting thing but they are very tiny. Um and that is a little suss to me. But then at the same time. What are you using these for that tiny maybe cutting fiber leatherworking don't know but the use wear on it doesn't really indicate leatherworking to me. Ah, you guys think. 07:26.76 archpodnet And then in an another thing I have do this is so out of my wheelhouse like that. That's the issue like I'm just looking at this. The dates are fine I mean like it's it's. 07:32.29 David Howe I Want I Want to ask you about the dates. What do you think about the dating techniques. Okay. 07:43.76 archpodnet Decent bays at bayjian like I got to see the supplementary files actually to really look at their code but they do bayesian in there and my guess is the dates are pretty good. My issue isn't necessarily with the dates like it's with. The attribution of these being humans and so you have to go to an earlier article that ah Metz was on on and so it's slimmick at all and science advances in a research are also a research article from 2022. 08:06.14 David Howe As opposed to near. 08:16.29 archpodnet And it's based on the same cave because it's the same same context and they're saying that there are modern humans in neanderthal territories fifty four thousand years ago in France which is much earlier than what is believed humans reach europe like homo sapiens sapiens. Because that's like what thirty five thousand years ago from like turkey. 08:38.16 David Howe Bro like Lascaux and stuff is like 39000 years old humans humans have been there for like a 100000 years behaviorally moderate. Well, that's the debate like did they just wake up as behavior them on humans one morning or like. 08:42.66 archpodnet Yes, now when did but when do modern humans get to Europe. 08:43.51 connor Still. 08:56.55 David Howe Was it a culture spreading from Africa but like I'd say at least 50000 years back to 100000 years humans are in Europe ok wrong. Ah, okay, you're right? yeah. 08:59.33 archpodnet Ah, no, no this here. This is the I know that's not correct I know they've been around for one hundred thousand years but not in Europe because like part of that part of that whole thing. So the article talks about it like. 09:05.43 connor Wrong. 09:15.79 archpodnet The earliest first settlements of modern humans in Europe have been constrained to 45000 to forty three thousand years ago and in starting in Greece so now they're pushing humans into France Fifty four thousand years ago which is like. 09:22.76 David Howe Okay, when's our Agnasian because I know those are like the oldest like defined culture there a 43000 yeah okay 09:34.10 archpodnet 1 of those like there I know there's a debate that homo sapiens. Yeah yeah, um, yeah, so. 09:41.30 David Howe Early modern humans. Yep Okay, you're right. 09:45.40 archpodnet So now that we have 44 forty fifty four thousand years ago in France which is like wait a minute so this is kind of similar to like the Pre-clovis clobus thing like when we talk about how the it's nowhere near as as a stretch as Monte Verde but like. 09:58.33 connor Yeah. 10:01.11 archpodnet There is a gap between where we know humans are fifty four thousand years ago and in Africa versus France and so that's that's a whole different story but the the way they get to fifty four thousand years ago in France is it's not based on genetic material. It's based on dentition so they. 10:19.23 David Howe A. 10:20.99 archpodnet Looked at the people in the cave at these different levels and based on that they think some of those molars are human and the context of that has been did at 54000 years and they talk about in this paper they were thinking about doing genetic analysis on the teeth there but they did it. On horses of similar age and they couldn't get the genetics out so they didn't want to risk because like any sort of Dna analysis is going to be destructive. So like they have a thing in this 2022 article before deciding whether ancient Dna extraction of rare of rare precious hominid remains could be successful. We assess the overall Dna preservation rate at Mandarin using 6 equied teeth excavated from layers b to g so that was their thing behind it. So I don't know anything about. Dental morphology between anatomically modern humans and neanderthals but they use that as the basis to suggest look on a couple of teeth once again, we're talking about paleoanthropology which we have bitched about on this podcast I'm about the lack. Ah, statistical data behind everything they do because they have so few remains that they're like people are in France which four thousand years ago that is that's a big deal. Take our word for it. That's a big deal and then they use this to go for a supplementary paper. That's like. 11:43.89 connor Yeah. 11:51.42 archpodnet And by the way those same humans that shouldn't be here also brought with them the bow like 10000 years earlier too and so my question is like I don't have a dog in this fight or a cat or a rooster. Whatever if they are. 12:06.25 connor Goat. 12:08.38 archpodnet Wrong if if those teeth are neanderthal that would then suggest neanderthals had bow and arrow technology in Europe which would be fucking revolutionary because we don't believe they had that and would therefore also upset our understanding of human neanderthal interaction. Technological replacement and species stuff in Europe. That's my that's my critical lens looking at this is like wait a moment but I don't know anything about dentition. So I'm not going to see these people are wrong. Are experts in this field but how different are neanderthal teeth from human teeth. 12:55.00 David Howe They're all 2 1 2 like we're all the same old world dentitionian but like I assume they have bigger mouths like because their skulls are a little bigger but like we were still interbreeding so like 1 of them had a regular teeth the next one was like change dying it like when it was. 13:06.70 archpodnet Are. 13:09.99 connor Are. 13:11.55 David Howe Warren so well. 13:21.86 David Howe I Didn't expect you guys to laugh for that. So ah make I mean about that. But anyway yes like I don't think I think getting into the weeds on that is like not really too like much about boat. Well mean I see your point but but. 13:27.15 connor Oh ah. 13:35.60 archpodnet Yeah, it would be revolutionary if it was actually anderthal not homo sapien but also like even the fact that humans are there in France that early also with the bow once again, circumstantial evidence because it's just the points and I mean I want to ask you David you did an experiment. 13:38.15 David Howe But. 13:53.40 archpodnet For your thesis in which you had like 1 style of projectile point made of obsidian like 30 different sizes how different like in terms of like an add lottle point from a bow point. Are we talking about that really affect. 14:10.48 David Howe Um, I would say you get Well I have multiple injurers to that buterl waggas back Hyineman and what's the other Miss Buzzer's name savage All'll have a paper together where you could use a bow and arrow with just a sharped piece of wood does the same thing. 14:12.40 archpodnet Transmission. 14:28.40 David Howe Ah, doesn't bleed as well like the aerial gets kind of plugged in there like a suction but the the point then would help with the ripping of the flesh and like allow for bleeding better. But also I've talked with Nathaniel Kitchchell about this He's a professor at Dartmouth I think um, he like. Ah, but essentially a point at the end is just wait like you just need something to lot like out in the end of there to like make it fly better and that my my experiment kind of showed that like weight really affects how the projectile goes but like those arrows without points on it still with a shot right? there you know? So ah. 14:59.75 archpodnet Death. 15:00.67 connor You were shooting How big were the the biggest points like. 15:05.60 David Howe Biggest points for like thirty grams um there were jonkers like it was like am trying to think they they were basically like the size of like a regular mississippiian like fat spearhead arrowhead at little dart. Um, they look like knives like put put it out like they're they're big. 15:07.68 connor Like how top height I like inches can you. 15:07.80 archpodnet They're big. 15:22.96 connor Yeah. 15:24.63 David Howe Ah, can't remember the sizes and mill me either look it up but um, with that being said, like these are perfect. It's perfectly acceptable to me, especially if I want to go with the thing in South Africa being points these look just like those like kind of ah they look more like these than they don't. Um I don't want to say like salutry and versus clovis point. But like these these are pretty much the same thing. Um, it wouldn't be crazy to me then that that technology diffused pretty quickly to North Africa then and then that through the levant or through Morocco into Europe. And then neanderthals adopted it because they weren't dumb. They could have figured it out what they had it traded to them but also like I think we often conflate like neanderthals couldn't have done this because they're not as intelligent as people but like we forget that like much like clovis to me. It's a technology and a culture It's not a biology thing. So like. 16:12.71 connor Yeah. 16:15.28 David Howe This is totally fine to me, especially if the dates are right? but like whether it was neanderthals don't know if it was people sure. Um, but again like Carlin saying neanderthals were still pretty prevalent in Europe at this time so then it would it would scream neanderthal so I don't know. 16:29.60 connor I This is I think that's my biggest beef with kind of these these indirect arguments and I'm not a useware analysis person I'm not an impact fracture person and maybe this shows really well. Um in projectile points when you. 16:30.54 archpodnet Yeah, this hint both these arguments hinge on like very circumstantial evidence. 16:35.10 David Howe But. 16:49.86 connor Experimental stuff et cetera but use swear and impact fracture as a marker for technology is hard for me to it doesn't feel I don't feel strongly and trust that data very much unless you're getting an actual arrow with a. 17:01.47 David Howe A. 17:07.83 connor With a point on it or a dart with a point on it if that preserves that makes me feel good that that technology exists. But if we're going to look at points that have gone through a series of post depositional processes. Um a crazy use life like that I think there's a lot of error potentially within that. 17:17.78 David Howe O. 17:26.51 connor To possibly get where things like that that might. 17:29.89 David Howe I agree cause something I noticed about this paper too is like those those the pictures of them screamed to me that that it's possible, but their their methods I was like what you like I didn't figure out what they did like I was like oh you just impacted them like maybe I just didn't read it correctly. But. It didn't seem to Compare. It wasn't like a full on fledged out experiment to me. 17:51.48 archpodnet It yeah and and sorry I did meant meant I did mean to mention something about dates having a fucking postcard here and I absolutely forgot to to mention it fifty four thousand years ago on radiocarbon dates the halflife of radiocarbon. It's like just beyond the half line like it is pushing the boundaries of. 18:02.80 David Howe Postcard. 18:10.69 archpodnet Carbon dating those dates are so like they talk about it. They're like yeah because it's probably beyond the 50000 year marker so like it gets there's ah they're they're pushing the boundaries on on c fourteen to its limit. 18:12.46 David Howe Gotcha um. 18:29.00 archpodnet And these are things I don't think about right and and what we've all kind of talked about is like we're used to working on a lithic culture Lithic Cultures Lithic Technologies that are far more sophisticated or complex than this like this is early shit and we're just and I'm not used to seeing it. 18:39.39 David Howe A. And. 18:46.19 archpodnet And or like even the way that you're talking about their halfting I don't know because I don't I'm not used to seeing that or understanding that and I'm and um, you know we have humans here confirmed fifteen Thousand years ago 19:00.93 archpodnet Well within the range of radiocarbon dating So like this is like looking at this. It's just like it. It just doesn't feel right? but I it seems to be Yeah, it's like I don't. 19:07.83 connor I Don't know enough to dispute it. 19:09.48 David Howe Right? question then to lead us in the next segment like with it being right on the cusp of radiocarbon being accurate or not also with neanderthals dying out dying out forty thousand years ago in Europe. And humans getting there about 42 to 48000? what would decide 42000 like 50000 years is not that far of a stretch from you're not saying two hundred and eighty thousand years you're saying it's a matter of like it's like 10000 years yeah 19:25.96 archpodnet Death. 19:36.51 archpodnet Yeah, but but even then that also changed because like the whole idea of how neanderthal is but quote unquote extinct because it like humans just arrive as neanderthal is leaving. So even if these are humans fifty thousand years ago that extends the overlap by 10000 years like it it it. 19:36.80 connor It's not a saruity. 19:53.46 David Howe It's the dog versus wolf skull debate to me like when when do you call it Nenithal when do you call it human, especially right at that like twilight. 19:56.29 archpodnet It's yeah it really throws a a wrench I don't know it's really like that meme of the kit putting a stick in his own bicycle wheel like it's like this. It's like. 20:06.84 David Howe Throws a hand axe. 20:12.76 archpodnet No matter how you cut this. It. It changes things it changes interpretations like pretty radically either to who has the technology how long humans have been there and it's like it's kind of it's it's not as bad as sairrudy in terms of like the consequences. Of the results. But these are present and they are still as prevalent that they have to 10000 years is a long time. Yeah anyways, okay, well and this we'll get back into um stuff and things. 20:40.74 connor Yep, alright.