00:01.43 connor Welcome back to episode one forty six of a life in ruins podcast I think that last segment was coherent the first one we apologize if her in advance because it was dad and Carlton was doing a hamster ball on his brain so apologize. 00:15.61 David Howe We can't apologize in advance because it already happened. 00:21.32 connor Apologize whenever the fuck I want um I was going to mention. Um this is published in Science science advances so it is not a archeology specific journal but it does publish archeology articles. So. 00:24.30 David Howe Ah Jesuss Ah yeah, so you guys say. 00:39.47 connor I'm gonna just put that in your ear. Um as a little skeptic skepticism coming from me but I also don't publish so take that with a green of salt or smoke it like a grain of salt. Whatever David's doing 00:47.90 David Howe Won't publish you that's stupid just write a regular paper that's easy to read. That's not behind a paywall I'd like maybe people stop buying Hancock books. 00:57.64 connor Yeah, no. 00:57.84 archpodnet This science advances is not behind a paywall the the whole the whole model that I was just about to explain the difference between science and science advances it. Science advances is the open access model. So these people paid a shitload of money or their institutions did. 01:01.18 David Howe Good. 01:09.30 David Howe Okay, oh right? because you have to pay to. Yeah, let's paywall but to my my point being like when you guys send me articles sometimes I have to like log in to like someone else's account to like read it. But this one at Science advances I forgot is yeah, you're right? and there's another one that's. 01:09.30 connor O. 01:15.71 archpodnet Yeah. 01:28.57 David Howe You could read like online too. Is it. It's not nature. 01:31.55 archpodnet Um, it is p and s not penis PS what is that's what does PP and a stand for national academyism sciences. 01:35.55 David Howe Elsevier PS Okay Ah, pen nes parentheses next podents ah parentheses nextonents addition subtraction. 01:40.20 connor Penis proceedings of the National Academy ah and his sciences. Yeah. 01:48.21 archpodnet Yeah, so that like 1 just real quick. An issue that David talked about like to do an open access journal or submit to one you have to put a lot of money upfront to do that which does limit which scholars can do that some institutions will allow you to I mean it's like thousands of dollars like or you publish in a paywall in which people have to access it through $50 year. Anyways, it's a whole thing sapiens articles though. Peer reviewed scientific blog posts. Yes. 02:15.10 David Howe Um, that's it sapiens. Yeah. 02:15.78 connor And they they publish 2 2 of these articles within the same within a year. So I mean they have the money to do it which is is interesting and maybe why this is getting spread as wide as it is. 02:20.78 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 02:28.24 archpodnet I Don't think Science advances is physical like I'm pretty. That's why it's kind of easy to once you submit to one of these things like it's it's out so like for for instance, the the bow and Aotek one. 02:36.93 David Howe And the. 02:46.60 archpodnet They received it June Fifteenth Twenty Twenty two it went through revisions. It was accepted January Twenty fifth and then it was posted online February Twenty second which is a very quick turnaround time for accepted to being out so you can get stuff out. 02:55.97 connor Because you you're talking about years Normally right. 02:57.98 David Howe Wow. 03:02.35 archpodnet It can be it depends on the journal like I think american antiquity right now. The wait is like at least a year 03:05.27 David Howe My thesis is taken since Twenty Seventeen Dude I like I'll get it. 03:10.75 archpodnet You have to you have to submit first. It. 03:11.61 connor You have to submit it first. Ah. 03:15.20 David Howe Ah I was waiting you guys to cloth up. Um, yeah, yeah, so I don't know I don't have a dog in that fight or a cat or a thylacine like I I don't know what to do. But if this one I Forget why we get on open access like what what were we gonna talk about with the paper. 03:29.91 connor We're just talking about I would we were just mentioning because we talk about another when we do these articles that we actually mentioned the journals itself and so we just put that out there. We said it I don't know if it's bad or good Carlton seems to think that it's generally positive. Yeah. 03:31.44 David Howe Um. 03:34.48 David Howe Right. 03:42.31 archpodnet it's it's pretty good yeah it's it's good it's it's one of the more reputable like to get ah a paper in scientific advances. That's that's a big deal because that shows that you're able to acquire the money for it. So like it's it's a whole thing and in the ivory tower. It's one of those journals that if you have at least 1 pub in there. 03:43.38 David Howe Um, she said what she said. 04:00.27 archpodnet So I got to I'm like fifth and twentieth coauthor but its on there somewhere. So yeah. 04:00.29 connor Okay, you buddy it's still counts flow it counts as one. 04:03.70 David Howe Nice. 04:14.60 David Howe Ah, yeah, well now I can be well I'm not gonna say that on the podcast life. Ah what was it will wait Nothing um. 04:19.12 connor Wait. What? um. 04:22.21 archpodnet Chris cut all of that out. Um not all of that just us trying to figure out what we're going next. But. 04:31.80 archpodnet Um, paywall and open access aside so for our audience both the papers that we we just mentioned neanderthals and humans at this cave bows and arrows at this cave will put the article down Below. It is open Access. You can click on it and you can read these papers for yourself. These are in my opinion a little Jargon Heavy I had to read through both of these a couple times because it's they're They're very quick articles so they're very dense in content. Um. 04:57.78 connor Oh. 04:58.57 David Howe I Would agree with that I had to listen to it on like speech like I had to have it read it to me because I was like I can't focus like this is too much. Yeah, that's normally me though because I need people to read me story time. But. 05:09.62 connor Yeah, so we will drop those articles. But if you want to pay us for him. We'll take your money. We'll put our venmo account in there so feel free. 05:16.12 David Howe Ah. 05:21.31 archpodnet Ah, but this does bring up a good point as to why you should adopt or not adopt technologies or what the deal is so like we know that addolatls and bos were used contemporaneously in the Americas for at least 1000 years because bows show up. 05:36.26 David Howe Yeah thousand a DSMedieval warm period middle choose Ai nt it 05:40.94 archpodnet Yeah, so yeah, and theres there's pots at Spiro and other mississippian sites which show people with both atlatls and bows and we know when Cortez got to um the aztec empire in mesoerica he was attacked by atlatls and bos. Some you know people in Australia had both and still use them. So it's like they exist together. The europeans seem to and africans just kind of got rid of at levels altogether it. It looks like. 06:11.20 connor It is interesting though that they do coexist you feel like I feel like that's an arms race that usually 1 technology emerges out of and is usually more efficient and replaces previous iterations of it. 06:21.96 David Howe Yeah, well like Devin said oh like he was saying like in Mesoerica it was more of like a costly signaling type thing like like you were just like not like your your weapon load out someone was like I'm an eye little guy. Yeah president was I'm I'm a bo guy. 06:23.14 archpodnet In Context completely a aside? Yeah, go ahead? No please. 06:38.30 David Howe Which like that also leads me to think like that's probably the case like my thesis was then you could use either with those big points. So like it was just preference. But um. 06:45.32 archpodnet And even context today we have a black powder season. We have a bow season in some parts in New England and canada there is a chafflin season now. Granted, it's not like yes, yeah, no, it's it's. 06:55.61 David Howe Oh my god has someone looked at that. Okay I have not read that like versus at Lats versus Bose like seasonal. Okay. 07:03.58 archpodnet It's a thing it was it total. Um, children. Do it pretty thing like it's kind of like what children in canada learn on is job javelin hunting because it's earlier so like and which leads into the point right? like we're talking about context people like. adlal beau these at the same time in american specifically in american hunting context. There are different seasons so it is kind of like if you want to use a rifle during rut you can't unless you're doing black powder and then it's it's easier to you know there's a whole meeting season. Also it depends on hunting strategies. But we do. No people today like I thoroughly enjoy black powder. It's actually cost prohibitive for me to get into it because the rifles are more expensive. The tack and equipment is more expensive. So there's kind of a. 07:42.70 connor Yeah. 07:49.60 archpodnet And inverse it's easier for me to go to the local gun store to the bargain bin and get like a hundred dollar thirty hot six then it is like a $600 planes black powder rifle by all the brass caps by all the balls. So like yes, there's yeah. 08:00.35 connor Yeah, you look like you actually do powder and you you put it in there. Yeah. 08:01.73 David Howe What's a black. Are you talking like a musket. Like you're playing like Yankee doodle in the background biting off the thing. 08:09.70 archpodnet Didn't I ever send you that snapchat to me a couple years ago where I'm dressed up as a victorian and I say the only there can only be 1 Queen but Victoria and then I fired Devin's black powder rifle. 08:18.27 connor You? Ah yeah, um I do want to. 08:19.49 David Howe You might want to delete that when you publish your book but dude like what the fuck. Um, but I meant to as oh sorry you go kind of. 08:26.50 connor Do want to say oh I was going to say although I'm not discounting what you're saying because modern hunting preferences are obviously different. But I think hunting for food and for living is a different context than hunting for sport. 08:30.38 archpodnet So. 08:42.60 archpodnet Um, 100% yes 100% they're totally different contexts. Yeah. 08:43.62 David Howe Yeah, yeah. 08:46.48 connor Ah, will say that but but but but but obviously there is still some overlap and some like either nostalgia or um, some situations where the Aal is more um is better in situations and it exists up until you know. 09:01.98 David Howe Yeah, went oh time. 09:04.28 connor Today. 09:04.45 archpodnet Yeah I think Prep prep personally and once again I don't have a capy bear in this fight. Um. 09:13.53 connor That's the best 1 09:15.96 archpodnet Yeah I just can't be able to keep throwing shit it like just like I don't have you know like I don't have ferrets in the fight. Um, ah I just brought it it there. Um I when when I did. 09:15.96 David Howe Papa Cappa band in your. 09:21.69 David Howe You You got the whole zoo pals collection Bro Link I Just steel pals. 09:33.20 archpodnet Ah, played battle la with Devin and Justin people at hellap and battle ladl is a sport. They invented to test this hypothesis in relation to grunde and grund's dissertation. Um in which you take an out ofatal. You don't have to with a stone point what you do haveed it with is a nerf football. And then you wear a hockey pads and you make a little meche tech shield out of a sled and then you throw them out of each other battle ladle. Um, it's like pretty easy now. Granted the ballistics are different to block and maneuver away from atlatls unless you get 5 on 5 and throw them in mast then it becomes fucking difficult. That said when you put a nerf football on an arrow and launch it from a bow that is terrifying and like you can't dodge that it's really hard to block and it's even like when you go from throwing out littles at ten yards from each other. 10:18.65 connor Yeah. 10:29.77 archpodnet Firing a bow at someone who's prepared for it thirty yards the velocity behind the arrow at thirty yards will reach its target before the ah the adol atl from 10 So there is a hypothesis behind it? Yeah, so there there is a difference like in terms of just like if you want to kill somebody. 10:40.10 David Howe Estained in Mel Gibson's Apocalyp though. 10:44.81 connor Yeah, yeah. 10:47.79 archpodnet And arrows pretty good. But as we've talked about in this podcast. We know people hunted megafauna with addle als so they are effective because even though they have lower velocity. They have greater impact and mass and do much more blunt force trauma right? So that's my personal experience once again. 10:59.60 connor Yeah, yeah. 11:00.60 David Howe Ah, got that wit. 11:07.10 archpodnet Ah, do not have a Carolina parakeet anywhere associated with this fight? Um, but like just from the personal experience and anyone can do that if they have ner footballs and or at a labable tech. So ah. 11:17.52 connor And David you you've noticed and you've studied this there is an increase in violence in the past once the bow and arrow technology like appears like because beat. 11:18.47 David Howe Yeah. 11:29.96 David Howe Yes, as somebody with a bandicoot in this battle I would say that had that locked and loaded dude. Ah yes, like violence like Bows and arrows are much more effective at killing people because you can hold many more arrows on your back or on your side. Quiver. 11:36.39 connor Ah. 11:47.32 David Howe Um, Archers are a toxic community by the way like you really, they didn't put it on their backs I really put almost side it like ah yeah I shoot it just as fast from my back. So whatever. Ah the ah yeah, that happens. Um it. Um, yeah, like the bow and air like right around the middle of a warm periods. We like we talked about last episode. 11:52.65 connor Yeah. 12:07.28 David Howe People start bashing brains in like crazy all over the world at that time and it just so happens the bow and a is like pretty prolifically spread a thousand years ago in North America so um yeah it just it easier for violence. Yeah. 12:16.62 archpodnet Yeah, especially agriculture and agriculture is associated with it and also also someone that is not in this Mario Cart race um 12:29.39 David Howe I'm not an Italian in this minor car. No it needs his been alliteration. 12:31.87 connor What? Ah what are the what are they like the but mushroom things. What are those called? No no that Mario the mario mushrooms go but gomba I got a ah. 12:32.92 archpodnet Said I'm not I'm not I'm not in this Mario Cart race I'm just not racing at all I'm on it. Um I I'm just doing the time lapse the turtle shows. ah ah yeah um like 12:36.63 David Howe What's that a monitoring. 12:44.87 David Howe Cupas. Oh I'm not a gomba in this Grand pri. 12:47.43 connor Ah. 12:51.66 archpodnet It's also to to be more to be stealthier. It's easier to fire a bow stealthily like the the mechanics of firing a bow are much um, more reserved to the upper body. Well because if you want to throw a a lot like if I'm hiding behind a tree and I want to hit an elk. 12:53.49 David Howe Yeah. 12:59.10 David Howe Well actually. 13:06.90 archpodnet I Have to get away from the tree and then I also have to like step into it. It's a way more full body motion whereas like the bow I can just you know it's much more upper back. It's much more traps and can fire from cover. 13:07.20 David Howe Um. 13:15.93 David Howe I just know Donny is listening right now and he's like shitting himself because he's gonna be like I can do that and he's gonna send me a video and be like yeah like throwing at lidle stealthily. Ah yes yet. 13:25.31 connor Can you throw an out loud of wire on the ground. Yeah. 13:25.96 archpodnet You You know that's probably right? You know I'm I'm just thinking about my personal throwing style like I'm like I have to think about it's like it's ah it's a lot more. Ah, what's the word um like not exotic expressive. 13:33.15 David Howe I Would agree. 13:43.32 archpodnet In when I throw an at loudl. It's way more expressive and I'm way more intensive in it whereas with the bow. Its yeah. 13:49.40 David Howe It's Con. Do so to emphatic Andphatican gestures. Um, yeah, ah I meant to ask this before and I kind of got sidetracked from it. But like when I asked like has someone researched that has somebody researched be versus at little use in seasonal hunting strategies in the past. I Didn't mean like modern. Okay because I would be really curious to know what? that's like I didn't think about it. 14:07.60 archpodnet Devyn has in his dis yeah and he also in Devyn's dissertation he did find that modern day bow hunters in Africa have far greater success rates than um. Rifle hunters in Colorado and in the west african african yeah Devin Pedigre Dr. Devin Pettigrew who's been on the podcast like 2 or 3 times and she's appeared in our videos african bushmen today that hunt with bows and arrows or have a greater success rate than. 14:25.60 David Howe Who does. 14:25.35 connor This this is Devin Petigrew by the way. 14:42.11 archpodnet Um, and yeah, it's a whole. Yeah. 14:43.30 connor He he definitely talked about that. So go listen to previous episodes with him. He's the expert. He actually has a podactyl yeah tarradactl in this fight. So. 14:43.75 David Howe Um, pretty damn good. 14:49.45 David Howe Boat Bos and hope and think was so he has a taractyl in this this tournament. Yeah, go. 15:02.56 archpodnet He has an orca in this free willy show. 15:06.55 connor I don't think you can do that you can't say that anymore isn't that what is not what Louie was doing free Willy show. 15:11.80 archpodnet Oh yeah, it's illegal. Ah I think he got I think for it was shamu. It was telecom yeah tillcom was he'd killed some people he like legit killed people. No. 15:11.20 David Howe Ah, yeah. 15:16.36 David Howe Is. Oh The the the the the cetacean not the comedian. 15:28.11 connor So it's making a bad joke. Yeah difficult you know. 15:28.68 archpodnet What are you guys talking about Oh have I know I'm talking about a Killer whale I don't know a what cars talked about. 15:30.33 David Howe Are you talking about a Killer whale. 15:37.51 David Howe He's talking about Louis C k' sexual Misconduct Um, ah yeah, so it was pretty funny actually um I know like I personally I was King I do ah the um so this article which was the main part of part of this this. 15:41.64 archpodnet That 1 right over my head. Um. 15:43.22 connor Um, should. 15:55.28 David Howe The main idea of this podcast today where are we at what questions do we have for the audience listening what is in the intertal. 16:00.18 archpodnet Um, perhaps. 16:04.90 archpodnet All 3 of us contribute a different aspect of our archeological understanding we at it and we're applying this to a paper that and an archeological culture and complexes that we're not familiar with. 16:22.30 archpodnet We're not saying they're right or wrong, but it's interesting articles regardless and they ask they open a lot of doors to reinterpreting known relationships either between ancestral humans and their technology or um. 16:41.38 archpodnet Relationships between ancestral human subspecies to 1 another. It's yeah, no, it's it's exciting stuff that is being conducted and. 16:50.83 David Howe You clearly don't have an ocelot in this octagon. 16:53.47 connor Oh yeah. 16:57.35 archpodnet Love how we just moved to alliteration. Um, maybe that's what we should do someone should fund the 3 of us to do because that's what these the 7 ages guys do like they get together and go travel around. 17:08.15 David Howe Yeah, but they're adults with like salaries will start not not me anymore. But I left that life Not great I've hospitalized. 17:12.66 archpodnet We're also adults with salaries like like to yeah one of ah 1 of us is always rotating a porate um is this. 17:15.10 connor Yeah, or some of us some of us. Um, yeah, how's it. How's it been going? Um, we have some questions. 17:25.56 archpodnet So yeah, yeah. 17:30.43 connor That's what I think we standed at we have. We have some questions. 17:32.40 David Howe I know I said the last 3 episodes I'm gonna post an Instagram post about this podcast and I'll let you guys discuss but Donny did ask me today like where do I like actually post comments and so Apple Apple podcasts you can comment and leave reviews but I need to be better about putting. We need to be better about posting on the. The podcast instagram this stuff let this one should be a cool discussion of course any back of donuts is gonna say what's a species or we did. We did get ah an email about that. 17:57.39 connor Species. Yeah. 17:58.77 archpodnet And I didn't use the Lord's name in vain this time. So thank you Jay for for that email I appreciate that to calm down. You're absolutely right? because we don't want to upset those people and I would never do that. So I appreciate it. 18:12.94 connor I't calling those people though I don't know that really we will. We will watch our language we are. We are constantly trying to do that. 18:14.87 archpodnet He got the point home is he was not wrong. 18:21.58 David Howe What wasn't this point like not to use other deities. Not not Jesus unless you're disproving him I think it's what his point was. 18:21.68 archpodnet Or. No, he's said to use other deities. Not Jesus and then also if I'm want to say yeah he yes he's like don't target and part of that is like yes and if I'm going to use g gfc jfc I need to be like Jesus comema fucking comma Christ I think. 18:32.52 connor Um, what's a equal opportunist like we should? yeah. 18:45.98 archpodnet Regardless of just not going to say it anymore because he was absolutely correct and I appreciate and he's he's commented on her stuff a long time like he's He's been really good about giving us feedback. So like I can't I wasn't mad at all I Like you know he's right and he's him an and and broaddus I was always like they gave us really good feedback. So that's another way. 18:47.32 David Howe So see. 18:49.83 connor Yeah, thanks for emailing us. 18:52.36 David Howe Yeah. 19:03.10 archpodnet Just like email us like we really do. 19:03.38 David Howe Yeah, and look if you email us, we'll talk about it. What will you give you shout out all right? What what did you say of that we had his 13 year old sleepover. 19:09.12 archpodnet As long as you're not too dickish. We did roast that one guy that was a couple years ago that that yeah like refrain from that be professional. 19:15.86 connor Yale. 19:20.14 David Howe Also thinking back on that speaking of sexual misconduct ah, nothing should follow that how does he know what a 13 year old girl's sleepover sounds like I I'm like where does that come from. Maybe he was a thirteen year old girl as a child I don't know but this is this conversation has escaped me i. 19:34.26 connor You watch Tv Yeah yeah, can you just can. We just can. We just come could we yeah got that cut got that all right? Thank you all. 19:38.83 archpodnet Could I get it. 19:39.98 David Howe We cut that out cut that quite that cut that? Ah, ah yeah, thank you I had fun with this episode if you guys have other topics or articles you want us to talk like this to discuss like this let us know. But. 19:50.63 archpodnet Yeah, this was a good one because this brought us down a rabbit hole because we're both once we're all like oh yeah, let's just talk about it and we all kind of dove into the article we're like wait a minute. There's something. Yeah, it was like wait. There's some this needs some some delving into. 19:58.50 connor Yeah. 19:58.57 David Howe Yeah, had nice pictures had nice figures. 20:09.37 archpodnet So. 20:09.42 David Howe So if you have a panda in this peia. Um, that's not goingnna work I think I fight Lucia Luia lets say if you have a llama in this lucia. You need not Joe. 20:13.70 connor Well played. 20:16.89 archpodnet What's a pelaia. 20:19.71 connor Isn't that Mexican food. 20:25.57 David Howe Ah, yeah, let us know what you think and I'll make a post I promise on Monday for this if you want to rate and review what is set up to do with a fight like. 20:29.40 archpodnet Sweet and like we said we have no gators in this gazebo. So I don't know Joe exotic lost gaters. Yeah. 20:38.92 connor Ah I mean you're going to here's yeah, if a gator's in a gazebo you are going to fight it like there's. 20:46.13 David Howe I mean it's the Florida way that's in their constitution. 20:51.80 archpodnet Right? So we will have the links to these articles and the episode descriptions. Once again, they are open access. You can read them for yourself if like check out these authors. That's one of the cool thing about science like if you didn't know that science advances was open access and you're interested in stuff like this. They have a bunch of free articles that are peer reviewed so you know that they're worthy. Um. Yeah, give them a give a listen. So yeah, please be sure to rate the podcast provide us with feedback on whichever podcasting platform you're using list of our show in order to leave comments um needs to be Apple but you can 5 star us on Spotify and Apple um, and with that we are out. 21:25.41 connor Hey Chris Reeze Wait wait one second Chris please cut out the louis c k joke that was not good. 21:26.82 archpodnet And as you mean. 21:32.73 David Howe And the pedohellia joke at the end there. That's not good for. It's not a good look for the whole podcast network. We're sorry about us. Um, okay, 3 2 1 and I guess it's time Connor don't you have that joke. 21:35.19 connor Yes, please cut that cuts. 21:41.84 archpodnet Ah. 21:45.98 connor They guess how does a computer get drunk. 21:51.87 David Howe Um, like give me a second I I don't know. 21:53.64 archpodnet Oh ah, um I don't know oh. 21:58.13 connor It It takes screenshots. 22:02.35 David Howe O wasn't that from Twenty Eight days later no ah last of us god just stealing shit now. Oh that's true Carlton if you havent watched the last of us like it's. 22:05.92 connor Yeah, so slackers Well I've been stealing shifts since day one. 22:10.33 archpodnet I haven't watched it. 22:19.97 David Howe Pretty damn good dude and we are out.