00:00.00 archpodnet All right? Welcome back to episode one forty eight of a life nurse podcast after some technical difficulties we are back. Actually you probably don't know about the technical difficulties because they've been edited out. But anyway here Vincent Batista just want to clear 1 thing up last segment I mentioned ah hozbo is from Georgia Hozboah is actually from dagestan which is not Georgia very different former satellite states of the Soviet Union anyway but we're talking with Vincent about I want to get into. Homo erectus now that area you're talking about in Georgia um, him to think about this but I I often tell people that humans are like we're just mutant homo erectus like once we reached homo erectus and made actually in hand axes and and that tool industry. We've kind of just innerbred with other vari variants of humans and we are what we are today would would you agree with that. 00:55.38 Dr Baggadonuts Yeah, yeah, some that's basically I mean so that site in Georgia diminisi it's interesting because when the first archeological finds. Well the first human remains were found there. Um, there was I think 4 individuals and um, they tried to call it homo georgicus they wanted it to be its own species and then a couple of years later they found a fifth individual a fifth individual was interesting because the variation that you have these 5 individuals. Almost completely encompasses all the variation you see for contemporaneous members of the genus homo in africa and it's about one point eight million years old this site. So um to me to say that we are all different versions of homo erectus is but. Is fine I mean you know I don't know if you would take you know a 2000000 year old homo erectus and drop him off in new york city today some people would be like okay, some this this guy looks a little bit different right or this or this person looks a little bit different like that could be the case but for especially for later homo erectus um. 02:00.76 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 02:12.62 Dr Baggadonuts You know they're really not that different from us I mean I don't think it was a case that there was like a speciation event I don't think there was ever a clean break in in the human lineage from ah you know the last osholopiths to the earliest members of the genus homo up into us. It's a remember. It's a. 02:21.34 archpodnet Ah. 02:32.50 Dr Baggadonuts A long and slow process evolution is and some people are in favor of things like you know a model where there's klato genesis where you have this branch that goes off and makes their own thing doesn't really seem to have been the case for us. Um, now there are some. Unique populations of human like na leady. Um now leadi looks pretty different. It. It doesn't look like us necessarily um, it doesn't look like Homo Erectus necessarily either. It's its own um population. Um, and there's a remarkable amount of similarity between the individuals there and what's weird is up. They're only known from like you know a small geographical area a cave site right? So um, now if you compare na leady which is more recent with demonisi. 03:13.26 archpodnet Yeah. 03:24.15 Dr Baggadonuts Like again the variation in Dminisi is incredible. You have males and females. You have younger folks, you have older folks. You have people that are healthy. You have folks with a lot of bone resorption and their teeth are missing from their mandible. Um, you have 1 individual a male who is has the biggest skull out of all of them and he has the smallest brain. 03:42.80 archpodnet Thanks. 03:43.86 Dr Baggadonuts Ah, smallest end of cranial volume out of all of them. So you know it's pretty interesting. But yeah I mean all human populations on the planet today even though we have regional variation in the amount of ancestry derived from archa human populations like neanderthals Nio and etc. You know. The first tomo erectus that moved to East Asia met some really unique evolutionary selective pressures the same with the first homo erectus that went to northwest africa or ones that went to Iberia right? each one of these places would have had their own sets of pressures ranging from you know. Uv radiation to possibly high altitude to maybe even heat. Maybe even hotter places in what they were like living in sort of a tropical environment maybe in East Africa or South Africa or everyone talk about. But yeah, it's ah it's pretty interesting. We all you know there's no. Clear break. No line in the sand that separates us from really any of our ancestors because that's not really how evolution works. 04:43.20 archpodnet Sure Why do you think people are so hellbent on like getting a a line in the sand or like you know wanting a clear like well it was this then it was that right? Yeah there you go? yeah. 04:53.22 Dr Baggadonuts Yeah, a missing link. Yeah yeah, no, it's ah it's because we humans are weird because we like really simple explanations. 05:08.50 Dr Baggadonuts And for some evolution is a simple explanation right? like things that are fit for an environment are going to have a greater likelihood of being passed on to subsequent generations. Um, we the lay public. On the other hand this is like you know this is everybody. This isn't just people who are interested in science or not whatever. Um we latch onto certain ideas from the past and sometimes it takes a long time to unlearn these things so you see like you know the ascent of man or something like that the the cartoon of the. 05:30.12 archpodnet Ah. 05:41.89 Dr Baggadonuts Chimp and then an early human and then some later human and then us we have this idea that there's a missing link but every time you find a missing link and you stick it into that lineage a new Gap opens up on either end. 05:41.92 archpodnet Right. 05:53.59 archpodnet And. 05:54.91 Dr Baggadonuts So there's something that will come before it and something that I'll come after it and if you populate all those gaps with all the variation of humans. It's a big bushy tree with vines underconnecting them and it's a really tangled bank as darwin called it and. If you follow the the braided streamology analogy of human evolution. It says that you know our genes were we have parts of our genome that evolved in places that are not where we live today right? like there are there are parts of our genome that evolved to selective pressures in East africa there parts of our genome that evolved. 06:23.32 archpodnet Um, ah. 06:29.94 Dr Baggadonuts In maybe in the near east or you know, um, but as far as like a missing link goes. You know it's I think it's it's a catchall term because we expect there to be 1 thing that we can point to that can answer all our questions and that's never going to be the case. 06:46.71 archpodnet Yeah, what's um, what's the braided stream remember that in human origins. But. 06:51.56 Dr Baggadonuts It's said. Yeah yeah, So it's like it's Multi-regionalism. It's um, basically that that you know I don't know who came up with the term braided stream I think maybe Hawks may have but essentially it's at just like ah ah a glacial stream. Has these little rivulets that break off and reconnect and and when they diverge some of these divergent streams may disappear and evaporate but other ones could pick up more steam and collect more melt water and they become bigger and they become a mainstam of a stream you will have this process of of. 07:12.32 archpodnet Um. 07:25.80 Dr Baggadonuts Divergence and reticulation and that seems to be the case for human evolution. For example, we have a population movement um out of Africa into the near east and that population separated into um western neanderthals then eastern neanderthals and denisovans. And these different populations traded genes with each other and you have things like local lineage loss like there was a population turnover in in neanderthals that happened at 1 point in time where you have neanderthals from the east basically moving back into western europe you know western europe is where genes go to die. It's a cul-de-sac. And when you have things like ah glacial events happening populations get stuck. You know the gene pool gets smaller populations become more inbred and that's happened a billion zillion times in human evolution. But but then you know if these populations survive. New populations will move in and mix with them and bring with them advantageous genetic variance and we see that with you know, early humans that look like us who go to Europe um, they mix with neanderthals and and Denise Wins we see the same thing when they go into to. Um, central eurasia probably East Asia southeast asia happens every time humans in the past moved somewhere they mixed with whoever was there. Um, and that kind of defies this model of a single dispersal with complete population replacement. It didn't happen like that population's mixed and it seems like they always mix. It seems to be the rule. 08:55.85 Dr Baggadonuts More than anything else every ancient genome that we get has some level of admixture in it with arcade humans with with very few exceptions. 08:56.48 archpodnet Um. 09:03.85 archpodnet Is it possible that some of those like gene sequences that are more archaic are just still in the Dna or is it pretty evident that it's it's admixture. 09:16.10 Dr Baggadonuts You can tell that there's admixture. Yeah, um, so even though ancient Dna can be very degraded because of this population basically bifurcation that you get. You have these things evolving on their own and they evolve kind of unique ancestry informative markers so mutations that are unique to a place in a time that are then passed down to to offspring. Um, there's this I guess you can call it a mathematical modeling process. Using these admixture algorithms where you can um, detect amounts of these ancestry components being crossed into populations. There's also a really simple test called Aba Baba um where it's basically you have um. 10:05.68 archpodnet Aberbaba. 10:06.40 Dr Baggadonuts Yeah, a B a B B a B a B a it's It's also called the B statistic But basically it's um, you have a test for deviation from like a very strict bifurcation event or a splitting event in evolutionary time in long story short. 10:25.72 Dr Baggadonuts You You know if you have an excess of these mutation these mutations that are found in this you know Archaic Human population. Um, in inside your non archaic population chances are they were crossed in. So um. You know that's kind of oversimplification of it. But it's you know it's an interesting test. Yeah. 10:49.67 archpodnet Um, okay so another question I have then would be neanderthals just like kind of as you put it like they were existing populations in Eurasia how did they get there North Africa to okay. 11:00.81 Dr Baggadonuts In probably North Africa and probably North Africa too yeah um you know they're a human group and these humans left there was a population dispersal from africa sometime after two million years ago 11:15.22 Dr Baggadonuts Um, we find the earliest evidence of this at demonisi and there's some archeological sites in China that are around the same age. So it looks like as soon as they got out of africa they probably went back into Africa probably went into. Um maybe what is today that you know Saudi Arabia that area probably went into to. India and East Asia probably went all over the place but we do find archaeological signatures in Georgia we find early human remains in Iberia over a million years ago so you know they move into these places and they put down roots and then they evolve to local selective pressures and so like we have um. 11:33.88 archpodnet Are. 11:53.24 Dr Baggadonuts The ata puka hominids who were over 1000000 years old. Um I think the earliest evidence of the human there like osteologically is a tooth. Yeah I think the oldest individual there is a tooth at Cma I'm not 100% sure you have to fact, check that. But um. 11:57.71 archpodnet Ah, that's Spain. Yeah. 12:11.76 Dr Baggadonuts You know we have ancient Dna from those individuals too and we see that like I think their mitochondrial genome is more closely related to deniseovans than it is to the neanderthals who lived in Spain after them. But I think their why lineage is more closely related to the neanderthals that might be backwards. It's been. 12:21.79 archpodnet Huh. 12:31.40 Dr Baggadonuts You know six or seven years maybe longer than that since I last read these papers. But yeah, no, it's interesting. But what you do see is that you have the formations of basically a population structure of these western hominids in these eastern hominids and probably multiple eastern hominids the ones that are in Southeast Asia might look a little bit different. Um, but realistically like East Asia in China was probably a population center like the jukudia and Joko Che I don't know what the proper pronunciation is like you have a whole lot of individuals living there. 13:03.70 archpodnet It. 13:07.90 Dr Baggadonuts And like the last ones of them they're called like the late homo erectus and they could have been around you know, less than one hundred thousand years ago but you know they were mixing with humans that are moving there all the time they're constantly constantly mixing. So yeah, they yeah I mean we were I think we were using fire at least by million years ago 13:16.35 archpodnet Right? That's what they found fire to right? like over there question like yeah yeah I would I would agree with that statement too. Um. 13:25.65 Dr Baggadonuts Be honest with you but I don't know how we could like um as a person who studied cold climate adaptation I don't really know how we could have moved into all these places without fire. 13:37.39 archpodnet Exactly like even at night in the Middle East it's still cold like and the place you colder. Yeah um, that yeah, that's fascinating too and fire too is more. That's something I always looked at as a marker of like okay million years ago fire 13:39.36 Dr Baggadonuts Oh yeah, yeah, the desert is cold man. Yeah. 13:54.92 archpodnet It's like an education or an intellectual thing. But it's not It's literally just a technology much like level ah technology or Achila in technology. Um, it might take a little more fine motor skill to make a bow drill but like you know. 14:03.20 Dr Baggadonuts Um, yeah, yeah. 14:07.57 Dr Baggadonuts I Mean that's assuming they were making bodrells. You know what? I mean like are who knows like even if they even if they found naturally a current. Yeah I mean like but managing that resource in protecting that resource as fire. You know what? I mean like. 14:11.96 archpodnet Right here just hitting flint together doing a hand like lightning. 14:23.34 archpodnet Yeah, and. 14:26.55 Dr Baggadonuts But I mean even in Australia um, there are some. There's possibly evidence of a burning intentional intentionally managing the landscape with fire like as soon as aboriginal aboriginal australian ancestors get there. There's some evidence for that. so yeah so I mean like even. 14:39.20 archpodnet Really. 14:44.37 Dr Baggadonuts You know at fifty Thousand years ago they're using people are using fire in the way that we use fire today. So yeah. 14:50.37 archpodnet Yeah, and especially to harness it from. Let's say like a bolt of lightning or something natural like that requires a lot of oral and cultural transmission of like hey this thing's gonna strike at this point when the sky's get all black. We need to run to it and get that felt like that. 14:58.33 Dr Baggadonuts Um, great. 15:09.11 archpodnet That's just as much intelligence to me. 15:09.29 Dr Baggadonuts Yeah, let alone like overcoming our biology to be afraid of fire. You know what? I mean like understanding yeah like I don't know like dogs. Yeah, like wolves I mean my dog does not like fire but some dogs are cool with it. 15:14.66 archpodnet Yeah I Guess that's good point too. That's probably ingrained in a. 15:25.25 archpodnet Mine loves fire. 15:29.10 Dr Baggadonuts My dog stays about ten feet away and starre. We also might just overheat because it's coats so thick know oh my god no no shit wow 15:34.76 archpodnet Um, my mind tries to eat the embers that fly out. Um, as get a scar on and nose from it. But yeah, um, question for you though would be ah man we gonna wrap up here in a few but the um. Why do you think people are so like I mean I asked you why they're hellbent on getting a missing link. But why are we so intent on classifying each other into these different little groups and species and genera. 15:59.66 Dr Baggadonuts Because that's what we do Liam and it's unfortunate, but like we need to because the world is complex. We need to. We have this like need to categorize it and organize it in a way that we can understand and also we come from an academic tradition. And probably even a theological tradition in the west that says that you need to do this like you have this hierarchy right? And um I don't really know if that needs to be the case like as a scientist like I'm interested in clotistics and phylogenetics right? Like that's what we do. 16:23.24 archpodnet Ah. 16:32.24 archpodnet Sure. 16:35.96 Dr Baggadonuts Um, but at some point we're gonna have to have a serious rehaul of the way that we but think things that we call like I don't think or gas or rudolph Fes You know all these other. All these other early members of Homo I don't actually think they're all their own species at all. You know what? I mean so sometimes conditionally a lumper a lot of the times I lump. But then there's some you know groups of hominids where I'm like yeah dude this is I can't. 16:57.37 archpodnet Um, lumber yeah. 17:09.38 archpodnet Split. 17:11.75 Dr Baggadonuts Like I Really it's really tough to lump this but but at the same time. It's like you know there's good reasons to to split like if it means that we can protect an endangered species and split away. You know I mean um, ah you know there's like ecological species concept Biological Species concept. Um. 17:24.82 archpodnet Um, yeah. 17:30.66 Dr Baggadonuts Um, a big fan of the conservation species concept. It's like we conserve it then we're going to split it. That's fine. 17:36.55 archpodnet Yeah, okay well I think yeah I mean that's ah, that's about all I got for this time I'd love to have you on again and talk more about the stuff because it's just endlessly. 17:38.82 Dr Baggadonuts Yeah. 17:50.50 archpodnet Fascinating and Connor and Carlton couldn't make it but I know they have their own questions about all this stuff too and you're a guy for that. So well. Ah, if but anyone in the audience if you has any questions regarding human ab evolution shoot us say ah I'll make a post about this. You can leave a comment I just shoot us a message. we' see we can get it answered but Vincent I appreciate you coming back on in. 17:53.67 Dr Baggadonuts The guy. 18:08.20 Dr Baggadonuts Don't mention it buddy have a have a fantastic St Patrick's day. Yeah. 18:10.40 archpodnet A lets today isn't it. It is this will come out Monday so yeah, hope everyone's recovered when you're listening to this all right? Um, if you just listened to episode one forty eight of life news podcast. Ah you can rate and review the podcast on. Oh. 18:16.86 Dr Baggadonuts Absolutely all right. 18:28.33 Dr Baggadonuts Um, no. 18:28.74 archpodnet It just lose connection. No, we're back cool on Apple or Spotify and then rate and review to be great if you give us a review and send a screenot of it to the podcast Carlton will send you a sticker and Connor's not here. So I don't have a wity joke today but we'll get back to you next week. All right? see ya.