00:00.00 Whoopsi Goldberg Welcome back to episode 97 of life re insuranceance podcast I'm lost without our Captain Carlton um but I'm trying my best we're here with um nicholas carbon and we um are actually he told me in the Dms when I hit him up about this that you actually did listen to the podcast before or you do do actively. Before we get into the some new england stuff I want to know what is that like and I'm sorry. 00:25.33 Nick Well actually I found I found you guys because I originally listened to the ah the dirt um and Carlton went on the dirt 1 time and pitched. Ah, he didn't pitch it but he like I he was I found out about you guys through carlton going on the dirt. 00:32.25 Whoopsi Goldberg Um, okay. 00:41.80 Whoopsi Goldberg Um, cool. 00:43.86 Nick Um, and I've been listening ever since I Love you guys? Yeah no I Love this podcast. 00:45.84 archpodnet I know we we appreciate it I think ah I think Carlton described. Ah David's style podcasting style as Joe Rogan where he takes like the Pbs he hans kind of approach in that interview which is which I thought was hilarious for. 00:57.10 Nick Um, yeah, ah. 00:56.59 Whoopsi Goldberg Um, yeah, interesting. Yeah, um, yeah, that's that's cool to hear. Um, it's like weird we started the podcast What 2019? Um, so We haven't really gone to like a conference or car conor and I haven't seen other archeologists really? So it's like going to be weird when we go because apparently people listen to it. So um, yeah, that's more what I'm getting at you take. 01:21.61 archpodnet Yeah we're gonna get a lot of hate. Um, yeah, so you also you sent you one say so you were also given other opportunities during your undergraduate career to do. Archeology specifically looks like you you did some stuff in some more new world archeology kind of working in I think it's in Connecticut right? with that independent study. Do you mind talking about that and what kind you did you did for that. So. 01:54.81 Nick Yeah, so um, with the independent study that I did ah it was actually just a continuation of the fieldwork that did over the summer we were we had ah hundreds of like float sample bags to just like so go through. Um, and I was doing that the entire semester because we had because we when we were excavating these shell middens like we just kind of just baggged them all and so I was going through and you know sorting all the soft shell clam and the oyster in the. Ah, ceramics and the animal bones and like the faunel stuff and all separate stuff into separately. You know bags and weighing them and whatever so that that was like kind of the tedious aspect of it but I was also doing a bit of research. Ah like as I was doing that and so I was looking at the. Um, ceramic diversity at this site because we were able to deduce um a few different and like discrete individual households at the site. There's about 3 of them and each of each each household. Um, had a shellmeden associated with it so was like the shellmeden of of the house. Um, and each shellmeden obviously because they're different families. They had different ah like waste disposal patterns and like different you know habits. Um, and what I noticed when I was going through the bags was that some of the like each like there was a lot of of diversity. Um in the ceramic types that they were using some of the ceramics had shell temper in them. Others had grit Temper others had no discernable temper. And so I just kind of wanted to figure out why that was also there was like different design elements on some of them as well. But yeah I I just I just wanted to figure out like why like what was accounting for the diversity. Um, and I didn't I didn't get super far with it I kind of. 03:51.90 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah. 04:03.23 Nick Paper I wrote I just kind of pitched a bunch of different like hypotheses as to why this could be I mostly was like oh like this the grit temper could have a different functional. Um, functional. Um. 04:18.74 archpodnet Like it was it was purposeful for something. Yeah, more. 04:21.27 Nick Yeah, better. Yeah, better for some things and than others. Um, and yeah or like you know the different design elements could be different. You know Kinship Networks or whatever. Um, and again I was working with a pretty limited sample size because there wasn't actually a ton of ceramics to come out of that site. 04:32.12 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah. 04:40.91 Nick Um, so you know ah grasping at Straws a little bit sometimes but you know I had a fun time doing that? Yeah yeah, exactly yeah. 04:45.00 Whoopsi Goldberg Sure. Ah. 04:47.11 archpodnet Grasping at shirts and. 04:50.12 Whoopsi Goldberg For um, the audience listening who's non-areologists a Shellmanden Um, essentially it's kind of just a dump right? like you just it's like where they put the shells they were like cracking open and then some junk um in the Southeast here you find dogs in Them. You find people in them. Um. Ah, they're cracking open the people but they just threw people in the dump sometimes um and then what was the other word temper right? That's like the stuff you put into pottery to bind it and it's usually Sand or shell or something like that. Yeah, um, so yeah, that's a cool thing Man. Um. 05:21.45 Nick Right? Yep so. 05:28.95 Whoopsi Goldberg Did you find any like thing like what was your the best takeaway for you like would you like most about it. 05:32.45 Nick So when I was sorting the the bags. It was interesting because we'd find like really like tiny minicule stuff that you'd never get in the sifter. So I found a few ah these like dutch glass trade beads from like you know the sixteen thirty s and um. 05:48.15 Whoopsi Goldberg So nice. 05:51.62 Nick Yeah I found like and again like I said like impacted musket shot. Um, and you know like like little bird bones and stuff. Um, yeah, no, it was just but I personally liked you know, like working with the ceramics the most because it was just. Don't know it because it felt like like someone like touched this and like made this and crafted this this vessel and like now I'm touching it. Um is this really kind of it's is it's corny but it's kind of like an emotional experience like when there's like 400 years separating you from this person who last touched it. 06:16.89 Whoopsi Goldberg So yeah. 06:26.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, absolutely and I know Carlton if Carlton was here he would he would call arrowheads deport man's ceramics because because you can learn so much about ceramics. You can learn about the local environment studying the Temper you can really date. 06:27.28 Nick Um, it's cool. 06:44.48 archpodnet Pretty well using osl and things like that where what time they came from um, like you said there's those individual design aspects that are really really interesting. Um, and you know out west at least where I was working in in Wyoming. There's like the whole state is described under brownware. Which is like that's that's there's like no diversity out there. So that's cool to hear that there is that sort of diversity out there and at least within the same site and within the same group of people. 07:12.35 Whoopsi Goldberg Um, yeah. 07:14.34 Nick Yeah, no, ah New England Ceramic like especially in the um like during the contact period. Ah this the new England I have a lot of criticisms of the ceramic like typologies but it gets very convoluted and there's a lot of diversity right around that time for. 07:29.60 Whoopsi Goldberg Um, ah. 07:33.18 Nick Variety of different reasons. But yeah, no there's a lot to the The only thing is though is that um ceramics don't preserve terribly well in new england ah because of the weather here I think it's just like you know the constant freezing and thawing and also the fact that new england ceramics are. Relatively thin and they just shatter like there's bazillion pieces. You'd never find a full vessel but. 07:57.27 Whoopsi Goldberg Do you guys get Colonnawa up there or is it not thing. Okay, it it it is down here, especially on the coast. It's like ah like european. 08:01.12 Nick I I don't not I don't think we get that I mean um is is that like a but kind of is that from the Southeast or is it. Ah. 08:15.39 Whoopsi Goldberg Indigenous and African like pottery styles like combined together. Okay, yeah I guess it's probably because there's more. It's more like I don't know I don't know why it would be I'm mean the African sure it down south but like the indigenous I don't know that? yeah. 08:16.85 Nick Um, all interesting I've ever been I Got to look more into that. Actually it's interesting. 08:34.97 Whoopsi Goldberg I always thought that was a whole coastal thing. But um, yeah, anyway, sorry tangent. Um, um, Connor ah, you're probably more on task than I am sorry I look at it 2 screens. 08:38.28 Nick The. 08:41.88 archpodnet Yeah I got so you also got opportunities to do stuff that is not specifically New England Archeology Specifically you also worked in studied the ah truscan populations and kind of. Took a ah very different approach and studying something completely different than you know ceramic sheds and and burials like that. So Do you mind talking about that. 09:09.63 Nick Yeah, so that's kind of a funny story. Um, so when I when I was initially going into archaeology. Um I went I went in with the mind that I was going to do like classical archeology I wanted to study the Mediterranean um. And so like the first research experience that I came across was like this professor and he you know, um, was asking like if anybody wanted to like ah if anybody wanted to sorry. Um. 09:43.10 Whoopsi Goldberg You're good. 09:44.41 Nick Was asking if anybody wanted to ah do like like a research project with him and I said yes like I'll do it and I came up with this like research question and I applied for this grant and he was kind of my mentor. Whatever he was very It was like very kind of hands off experience. Um. So it was like pretty much just on my own doing this? Um, and I was like oh like you know Well, the etruscans are pretty well-known for you know like gender like gender um like not equality but like women in a truscan society were always like regarded as like they had more positions of power. And they had like a greater kind of stake in things whereas like you know the romans are notoriously like ah patriarchy. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and so I wanted to figure out like like if like the onset of like Roman rule. 10:31.23 Whoopsi Goldberg Mail. Yeah yeah. 10:43.85 Nick In that and atrria that part of Italy where the Etruscans were um would be like detectable um with the change in gender relations if that makes sense and I didn't really like get super far with it. My My my. Project was kind of all over the place I was looking at epitaphs and like burial goods and like language I got really in the weeds and it was just a bit off more than I could chew and never even fully finished it completely? Um, but it was It was fun and then but that was. Then shortly afterwards I realized I wanted to do North American archeology. Um, after I finished that. So. 11:21.60 archpodnet Yeah. 11:22.51 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah, that's cool dude like um I think all of us like it's why we asked the dinosaur history kid question in the beginning like we're all at some point every archeologist goes through like ah I'm really hyped on Greek and grease and rome stuff forever. Um, like as a kid and then like you'll do it. Like I wanted to do classics when I went to school and I was like well that I don't want to learn german so um, um, and yeah, but. 11:43.74 Nick Um, yeah, yeah. 11:45.57 archpodnet I I feel like there's like 3 categories. It's like Greek Slash Roman and then you have the egyptians and then you have the mezzo folks. So there's like all people that there's probably another one too. But it feels like folks fall into. Yeah yeah, you're like okay I've seen this here you know I watched. 11:53.63 Whoopsi Goldberg Um, yeah, the sexy ones? yeah. 12:04.21 archpodnet Movies on this so I would did gladiator whatever you know, whatever inspires you but there always is it seems like you fall in those categories and then you're like oh it's really complicated. It's really convoluted and there's a lot of people in these disciplines. But if you're doing North American archeology like if you're doing it in the plains. You are. 12:05.56 Nick And. 12:23.67 archpodnet There's like so much research you can be doing and obviously you mentioned new england as well that that if you stay in North America and do prehistory or pre-contact. Um or even contact air stuff. There's a lot of research to be done out there. So that's a. 12:37.19 Whoopsi Goldberg And. 12:39.91 archpodnet It's a cry to all our listeners like please study North American archeology. 12:43.00 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah, ah, um, like I've told this to people that ask me these questions on Instagram a lot but like you'd think there are some areas where like people haven't gone to but like Connor like your thesis kind of like proves it as well like people have been here for. 12:44.11 Nick Definitely. 13:01.70 Whoopsi Goldberg At least 25000 years so it's like and upwards of 20000 now but um someone's been in that spot and probably napped a flake. You know it's like there's always something there. Yeah. 13:11.76 Nick Ah, yeah, they just found a site in Connecticut ah 12500 years old right? along the banks of ah the farmington river so yeah, is this called the brian D Jones site is found a couple years ago now yeah 13:20.14 Whoopsi Goldberg Helia. 13:23.65 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah, off to check that out I haven't heard of that. Um, oh. 13:25.22 archpodnet Yeah, cool, very cool. So you you worked on you so you obviously yeah you decide I want to do north american archeology and then you actually got to work doing collections which is something David and I and Carlton have all done or dabbled in. 13:43.54 Nick Yeah, so it was at this museum in Washington Connecticut called the institute for American Indian studies um and we were doing so like they had this this big ah assemblage in their basement. 13:43.94 archpodnet Yeah, do you mind talking about that. 14:02.73 Nick Um, from this rock shelter and in the same town called woodruff cave that was excavated in the 1970 s like throughout the 70 s and they kind of like they. Bagged all of the like cause like they were interested back then they were interested in finding like arrowheads and like you know the like you know, glamorous stuff and then they kind of just threw all the debotage and like everything they didn't think was like super important and these big like paper baggs and just like and there's like left them in a box for like 50 years and then. 14:30.60 archpodnet Um, no yeah. 14:37.41 Nick And then ah so I was applying to be an intern and they're like oh like you know we got a job for you. We sort through ah this this box of like moldy paper bags has been sitting here for since the seventy s that was like yeah sure and so it was it was cool I got to like sort through um and like Classify all this lithic. 14:46.17 Whoopsi Goldberg Um. 14:56.12 Nick Like Lithic debotage from this cave you know date. It's like dates from the I think it was like the early to late woodland period um, and yeah, so was like you know there's cher and quartz and whatever I found like some pottery that got mixed in there sometimes um. 15:08.40 Whoopsi Goldberg Ah. 15:15.22 Nick And yeah, there was actually there was a couple like you know Calcine Calcine Bone? Um, but yeah and I did that and know that was kind of like my day-to-day work I also helped or helped out around the museum like I would help assemble and disassemble exhibits. Um. Ah, they what else did I do I Oh and then there was also a ah this assemblage of like so like pottery that they had and like it needed to be. You know, sorted out and crossmended and kind of just organized so I helped with that too. So yeah, there's a lot.. There's a lot of you know Tedium But. What's archaeology if not tedium. 15:49.70 Whoopsi Goldberg Um I think I probably say this at least every other podcast or not every other but and and our bigger ones. Ah collections guys like listening if you're wondering what kind of job like you can get in archeology or like what do I do like. Look for collections jobs and if you're at school like take any opportunity to do anything collections based because one there's like millions of art billions of artifacts that need to get sorted and like only so many archaeologists and so many tax dollars. Um and like. In in Mike in Connor's case too. We did it because we needed money in grad school and got like ah a job doing it just like being a tech but then it ended up employing me for the last three years like with a 401 k and stuff like that. So like it it it pans out for you. Um. And yeah, so like good on you for for doing that because that's a skill that a lot of people just overlook because they just want to go dig yeah. 16:40.38 Nick Yeah, yeah, no and I enjoyed collections I mean I did not mind the like kind of monotonous aspects of it because I thought it was pretty therapeutic honestly and like and I had a lot of fun with all my people who I was working with like they're all great. So you know it's It's a good time doing collections. 16:49.47 archpodnet Oh absolutely. 16:48.95 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah. 16:55.29 archpodnet Yeah, well and the the amount of paper brown bags that are in basements that are like actively molding and dying like that is like ah Brian Schroeder who's been on the podcast before did his master's thesis on a collection that was in brown bags. 17:00.55 Nick Yeah, if. 17:00.35 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah, yeah. 17:13.69 archpodnet Was in the same sort of context that they wanted to look at all the bones the bison bones so they did the bison bones and they kept the lithicx other places and yes, there's always room and there's always work to be done in and that sort of space and there's money for it like David David was well-funded doing that stuff and yeah. 17:15.31 Nick Yeah, yeah. 17:32.77 archpodnet Highly recommend that to anyone out there so to do north american collections then you'll be solid and on that note I think we're going to end this segment and we will be right back. This is it been episode 97 of a life and ruins podcast. 17:32.58 Whoopsi Goldberg Yeah. 17:38.48 Whoopsi Goldberg Um, and.