00:00.00 David Welcome back to episode 98 of a life neuros podcast we're here with Dr Shane Miller talking about the comet and the hopewell comet. Um, we've talked a lot about how we're skeptical about it and how we you know. Always just like oh here's another thing in the media. That's just like like what evidence do they present in this article that like is actually kind of neat and interesting like Dave Anderson would pull from it. Um, or like if we if we weren't being skeptical and we were cool with it like what you guys hear what I'm saying. 00:35.34 Shane Um, flip it around look at it positive and not be a hater a minute. 00:36.70 David Maybe yeah. 00:41.25 David Yeah, just like to be objective. 00:44.89 Shane Um I would like to know more about that sourcing thing they did where they with the meteorite fragments from Kansas that everybody just assumed that they were from Kansas and being trucked into Ohio like. Is there a there there like is that legit like have people been misidentifying the source of this stuff for a long time because like that's part of the fascination with Hopewell is like the long distance trade network aspect of it. And so if he figured out if they figured out that this is not actually the source of that and it's from somewhere else. That's interesting even if it's not like airburst related raining from the skies. You know I think that's pretty freaking cool if that's not the source. Not as exciting as airburst. But it's still fascinating. 01:43.88 archpodnet And yeah, when I was looking at the bayesian like for some it's there's this weird I don't know if correlation and causation are related here of course but like when there's these major transitions in the archeological record that always seems to be these radiocarbon plateaus where we. Don't like it's the same this the same time period for the olmec and some other major transitions in human history there. We can't figure out the exact dates because there's this three hundred year period where we can't figure out where the radiocarbon dates go and I've always thought about that especially in my research because I deal with 2 of them and they're right when like woodlands ending. Hokekie is ending like and I've always like when I see this It's like that same thing I'm like part of me was like I entertain for like a moment. Could it be like these near earth objects or air bursts like. Putting more carbon into the atmosphere and that's why we might be getting these like those were the thoughts I was having and kind of made me really start to make me think critically about some of these other events in time of like well maybe it'd be interesting to see around these other periods in a radiocarbon curve where we have these plateaus like. Their evidence for air bursts then because like that's something if someone can figure that out like whoever figures out how to accurately date during these radiocarbon plateaus. They'll get a nobel prize because fundamentally it's like I'm so deep in that literature where people are like we have no idea you have to pick a hill a literal. 1 of those probability distributions you just have to pick one. So. 03:15.62 Shane What. 03:18.70 David Um, well I mean you bring up a good point. It's like with the younger dryas impact stuff too. It's like okay if it if it did happen like I Personally don't think it was like. The be all end all like it did that there were other factors at work already like mammoths were dying before that with the population was going down So like it didn't help if it happened you know so like in this case like if there was an air burst like the civilization could have been declining and like it just didn't help. 03:49.85 Shane Or his. 03:51.79 David Um, but like to say that it like it ended it like I yeah know. 03:54.54 connor I Think it's an interesting question too is to say how human or how human communities adapt and try to understand these cataclysmic events when they happen I think that is an interesting question that you could fundamentally you know. Look at in the archeological Record. So what? What do these impacts impact. Essentially I think it's a cool question. But I think it's a hard question to get at without really good chronology. Really good understanding or even historical records I think that's the way it is so I will give them. That that like trying to understand these cataclysmic events and their effect on human populations is ah is an interesting question I'll give them that. 04:40.15 archpodnet And I Also I know we're supposed to be positive. But if they would have made their Bayesian approach a little bit more robust by putting like end and start boundaries around the sites they looked at they could have been able to figure out their start and end Dates. Would have been a little bit more precise. So like I was just kind of like realizing that the Basian that they show us is just kind of like the distribution of radiocarbon they have. But if they did like what I do and others do to figure out start and ends for different sites or cultures that can partially overcome the bimoot Modal Distributions. So I'd be curious like myself. Well they do they give us the radiocarbon dates in the data I think they send you to a website right? I I think they do I but I believe um, they they put their radiocarbon data as ah as a supplemental website that you can go to. 05:22.27 Shane I Can't remember. 05:35.72 archpodnet I'd be curious to throw those things into oxkile tonight and just make a quick model that has the start and end boundaries and compare that to when this when what they they say it's Haley's comment if I'm correct. Yeah I'd be curious. 05:55.32 Shane Um, the host sorry. 05:55.37 David Oh that's a dog drinking water I was very concerned at that sound. No, you're good. Ah. 06:01.98 archpodnet I I don't know me but like Shane you you are far more entrenched maybe not entrenched but like out of the 4 of us here you are. You're the senior archeologist who's been in this field longer and has gone has seen much more of this kind of stuff. You know we're still junior. I still consider myself at least a junior professional in the field like what is your takeaway from from this is this part of a pattern that you've been seeing in the literature. Um, and how do you talk about this to your undergraduates like these kind of big nature articles. That come out that are trying to you know shake up the game in the field as we know it and. 06:42.19 Shane I mean I think whenever I taught to my grad students about it I just I tell them that you you just gotta my dogs are going ape shit hold on one second can I pause or we pause is that okay. 06:58.71 archpodnet So Chris cut it here. 07:01.34 David Actually Chris don't cut it here. Just let it ride. It's actually it's probably Rachel hey Rachel I hope you're having a good time like you know doing this I hope I hope you're having a good day if it's Chris doing this I hope you're having a mediocre day not as out kidding I I hope you have a good day too. 07:07.77 archpodnet Oh yes, sorry Rachel. 07:13.90 Shane I shut them. 07:19.77 archpodnet All right? okay and cut. 07:20.84 David Um, bye. 07:22.29 Shane Are all right? So I tell them that you got to like understand the motivations of not only the people publishing but the people who are doing the publishing like the actual publishers that we already kind of. Talks about a little bit and just there's some ulterior motives behind what gets published now because like anything. Um it's weird. You can you can you can trace a lot of stuff back to like notions of shareholder value right? so. Again, like why does not to pick on Facebook again. But why does Facebook do the things that they do to try to make money. It's to keep their stock price up. It's related to shareholder value and so it's not what is best for what is best for archaeology. It's what's best for generating income for um. For the major publishers. So so you got to be cognizant of that and which it's funny. What ends up happening is like some journals like that are regional like Southeastern Archeology this would have gotten I don't think this would have made it through southeastern archeology. They're not They're not really I mean they still got they still got. You know clickbait problems because they're owned by a corporation as well. But the the reviewership is much more local. Um and further removed from that game than probably nature. Scientific reports is. 08:53.43 archpodnet Is there because I'm familiar with like seac planes. The southwest one is called Pecos or what's Kiva is the journal but is there like an Ohio River Valley like northeastern society. 08:53.60 Shane Maybe I could be wrong on that. But I'm like. 09:02.70 Shane Um, mid continent old journal of archeology and so I really would be interested. It's interesting at least for the the ice age stuff if somebody comes out with ah. With a paper that's controversial what ends up happening is people will write a response to it and say it's nature or scientific reports or science and it may or may not get published and part of it is. It's there's some politics and drama on not only what gets published but who gets to. Um, write counters or critiques of these. Um, and so those that don't get through paleoerica has been the journal. That's actually been the home to a lot of critiques of debates around the peopleing of the Americas I think there may even be some some regarding. The younger dries comet stuff. There's it's become a home for like this is the place where the the argument actually gets hashed out that you know doesn't have nearly the visibility as the initial piece in science or nature. 10:13.53 archpodnet Yeah I mean I remember Bob's back when Crudy first came out Dr Kelly roped up a bunch of graduate students and colleagues to read response and nature said no we don't want to stifle academic thought and then myself and some. Colleagues including Maggie. That's how I found out about Maggie was through Shane about the arolline at all paper on chakwahiti caves and they told us the same thing like no, we don't want your response? Um, so totally totally understand that man like that's it's ah. So weird time to. 10:49.80 connor I'm just ah yeah, I'm glad that they have those places that they're willing to publish that though because you you think that it should occur within the same journal and it should be like that's just the academic process is that you you have papers and you have responses to papers and whatnot. But I'm glad that it's going somewhere. 10:51.85 Shane Um, tap. 11:06.70 connor For people to read because it's it needs to be said and needs to be said and print for other people to see. 11:13.34 Shane I haven't what I find interesting is I haven't seen or heard in any of my various social networks of anybody writing a response to this like the thing about like you know that's. Paleo archeology folks. It's like get a group together and all of a sudden. You've got an email chain with 20 people on it being like let's ride you know and and I wonder if this is so off to the to the margins of Um. What's going on in Woodland Period Archeology mainstream that it's even in their their round they worry about like like why would we do that We're writing real papers like why would why would we do I can see some people writing it off in which I think is a mistake I think it's in a major journal. Um, it needs to be Critiqued. It needs to be critiqued fully and it needs to be critiqued fairly and so like any other paper and so I hope that somebody is putting together A who really knows their Woodland period archeology who really knows hope well. To really like evaluate this for the rest of us schmucks who aren't woodland experts or not even archeologists. 12:32.23 archpodnet Yeah I mean we can hope I imagine someone is like with how how investigated hope well is there has to be a couple people who are like go to sleep steaming thinking about this paper. 12:34.80 Shane Now. 12:46.33 Shane Yeah I need to really bug Eddie Eddie Henry and Alice Wright those are the 2 at at Essayas I'll be like yo. Oh what you think because you know they're they're my woodland period go to folks. They. When they were in grad school together. They did an edited volume which is nuts on woodland period landscapes and it's a great book and I'll be like hey what you think about this is there anything is there a there there for this argument that the mounds are. Mirroring air bursts and all this other stuff. So I don't know I'm curious to see what they say maybe get a free beer out of it. 13:30.11 David I Mean it's always good. 13:30.29 archpodnet Yeah, and ah, it also be nice to like sit down with tankers li and his and his colleagues to kind of like you know what's what's the green room stuff behind this article that you guys all chatted about like what are the things that you didn't include in this scientific report for nature like I would generally like to know the thought process like as you mentioned. Before Shane is like tankerletz tankersley's part of this airburst. Ah mafia syndicate the airburst syndicate and it's like is he just getting people together to do these kind of things you know, allegedly right um. 13:58.41 Shane Yeah, the. 14:01.12 David And allegedly. 14:08.80 archpodnet Yeah I don't know it's just. 14:08.71 connor But but do you think that conversation you would you'd be invited and allowed to be a part of that conversation. Okay. 14:13.87 archpodnet I Oh absolutely not no if I showed up here with my hair down to my nipples at this point like hey I run a podcast like I wrote like you know I they would tell me to go fuck myself like I'm well aware of that I mean now that I'm being on the job market when people like oh I know a life ruins Podcast I'm like oh I'm not getting hired here. 14:25.85 Shane Um, it. I think it just takes rapport like I know some people in that like list of um, not tankers lee earn any of his co-authors but a lot of the people that are on several of the other comment papers that this crew is all publishing on. You know I feel like if I were like to call up Chris Moore on the phone and be like yo man. What's the scoop behind the scenes explain this to me. Why'd you guys do this. He'd tell me and that's because we've known each other for so long and it's like we're at the point that we can agree to disagree without being jerks to each other about it because you know. Life's too short and seac is too small and no one wants to no one wants to to spend their time by themselves in the conference because they're being a jerk but don't know. 15:16.50 archpodnet Yeah I think part of that like this podcast in general occupies this space like ah if you want to listen to tankers li and all them talk about it like there are other podcasts that have had him on to talk about his paper but like. I'm pretty happy with bringing Shane and others on just to like you know what are the criticisms behind it because I don't see too much of that in the media space and archeology podcast world of like you know we you know just for our audience so you don't think we're shitting on him like you guys listen to our podcast like we promote scientists and archeologists. And science communicators all across the globe to to introduce you to them in their up and coming research and when you know part of this is we get these articles from very established academics that are like what the hell you know I have I like these episodes where we. Ah, deconstruct their argument like I'm not trying to go after tankers look at all these people but this is ah this is a big claim just like the footprints just like Sarudi we got. Ah we're hoping like this provides something for our listenership that that puts in your heads to make you be more critical as you. Ah. Go through the literature I think that's my my hope. Maybe. 16:25.99 Shane I Feel like I'm like the person you one of the me in Tune are like the the star skiing hutch that you bring in to try and correct the case or something that I don't know. 16:38.80 David I mean I'm too dumb to do that. Ah so it is good to call upon you guys? Yeah, um, also I want to I want to set the record straight we can cut this out. Are you the second. Um. 16:43.60 connor Same. 16:45.92 Shane Fair, no. 16:55.65 David Guest on our podcast to clip their nails while on the podcast. 16:57.13 Shane I I did that and immediately as soon as I did it I was like fuck I did it again I got another thing they're gonna and they're gonna have another year interview and I was like it's like 1 of those like nervous things whenever I like I'm trying not to chew my fingernails and so like. 17:11.53 David Ah I do it all the time. 17:12.58 archpodnet So did. 17:15.47 Shane Whenever I start to do it I'm like okay I just got to clip my fingernails and I forgot my fucking Micros on and I'm like God Damn it. 17:20.26 David We got a fidget. Okay. 17:21.61 archpodnet Dude, you're fine the director of The American Indian Museum was clipping his toenails while we were interviewing him and now he's like yeah. 17:25.28 David While rocking in the like loudest chair possible. 17:28.92 Shane Ah, thumbnails. Whoa. 17:34.77 archpodnet And now he's the acting I think he's like the assistant secretary of museums and culture for the museum now I mean I mean he's my cousin. That's how we got him on man like you know we were just happy for his time. Yeah. 17:37.88 Shane Um, Wow. Yeah, yeah, there's got to do what he got to do all right. 17:39.45 David I Mean well. 17:45.14 David The kid's got fingernails. He's got cut. You know it's like yeah um, Conor. 17:51.29 connor Um I was gonna say it to our listeners If you guys have any comments questions email us. We'll talk to you. We'd love to have a conversation about this and other um articles. We're always willing to discuss it. You know that's that's the joy. Go ahead. 18:04.63 archpodnet Yeah, we got to yeah we got a good email from someone that listens in Washington asking for us to do talk more methods and like new techniques in the field. Um, because ah and so if you know people I think part of this is like we don't. 18:13.55 David Okay. 18:22.56 archpodnet Actually know that many people in the field you know and so like if you guys know people that are doing cool stuff like let us know like part of it is we rely on you guys to tell us what you want and who to talk to because we're we're getting to a point now 2 years into this over a hundred episodes. 18:40.36 David Yeah, um, yeah, pay $100 a week for help. 18:41.47 archpodnet We need help. 18:42.62 connor Well we need help and like on many avenues and yeah, yeah, but you know here we are. 18:44.95 archpodnet On many levels. Yeah, ah, but before we end the show. Thank you so much again. Shane for coming on. You know we'll throw all the articles that we talked about today in the episode description but like what are you up to that. Our listeners can can follow. Do you have any new. Recent publications just so our listeners can follow along with the cool stuff. You're doing. 19:06.28 Shane Oh well, um me Ashley Smallwood and Jesse Tune are in the neck deep in the page proofs for an edited volume that should come out and I think July or August. And it's going to be all things ice age archaeology in the southeastern us and so it's going to be a big monster book through the University Of Alabama press and there's already an Amazon page for it up. So that's pretty exciting whenever you get to see your name on something for on Amazon. 19:29.41 archpodnet And hell yeah. 19:31.37 David Hell yeah yeah. 19:44.53 Shane Um I will deal will do click it. 19:44.83 archpodnet We'll throw that down in the Lake man. We'll have her people watch it go to watch watch it. Yeah click it watch for it. Yeah, be on the lookout. 19:48.65 David They're gonna watch a book. Oh watch, watch watch for him. ma' um city so it's it's it's late. It's Sunday you know, let's wrap this up. Um Jane I guess normally would ask where do people find you on social media. But we're gonna ski right of that. 19:56.96 Shane Um, yeah. 20:05.60 David And oh I forgot Toder exists. Yeah. 20:05.82 Shane I'm on Twitter much ah, um, the the dirty trial. Yep. 20:11.54 archpodnet What's your Twitter handle Shane that's right. 20:13.48 David With a u okay dirt dirty like DURTY underscore travel I think to all in well it's in a description guys. Um, ah I don't have my. 20:23.16 archpodnet We know it? Yeah yeah. You know you did it so we just interviewed Dr Shane Miller you can find him on Twitter at the dirty trial. Please be sure to rate and review the podcast Spotify now has reviews let us know we're still I got that one review from January. So. 20:29.77 David Interview Doc open I don't think I'd do that. F. 20:45.21 David I reiterate Carlton's point rate and review the I will come to the field if you're listening to this in the field like screening some dirt right now look behind you I am behind you telling you to please rate and review the podcast in the least creepy way of course but like just rate review the podcast. 20:47.35 archpodnet And late February you were now. Yeah. 21:03.89 David If you were in the museum look at look around the corner open up that other shelf there's me ready to read the podcast I don't know what I'm saying anymore just ready to review about you know, just it what it is all right by that wasn't as aggressive. 21:15.47 archpodnet We and with that we are out and it it is that time for connors' special joke Connor what do you have prepared for us today. 21:19.52 Shane So I feel like I but. 21:32.40 connor You know, ah a good friend of mine has a schizophrenia but he's good people. 21:40.13 Shane Um, get you.