00:00.00 archpodnet And welcome back to episode 99 we are still here with Dr Amanda Butler and for this segment we're Goingnna earn me getting into some pseudo archeology television some ah trash Tv as you will and in the green room earlier. You were talking about the curse of Oak Island 00:14.46 Amanda Butler But take a. 00:15.98 archpodnet And that you have ah a guilty pleasure for that show I don't think we've ever talked about cursive oak island here ancient aliens comes up a lot. Whatever Mehan Fox's horrible. Archeology show is has popped up once or twice. But so what is it about the curse of Oak Island 00:21.35 Amanda Butler Yeah, everyone. 00:29.73 Amanda Butler So for me I think I you know I'm human and I love trashy shows like anybody else, especially big train wrecks but um, from ah when I was a kid I loved mysteries too right? I was obsessed. You know we talked about dinosaurs I was obsessed. Lock desk monster for I think way too long than I probably should have been but I love them and Oak Island was actually one of the mysteries that I was obsessed with when I was little um I always thought it was you know pirate treasure that was buried and it's definitely pirate. Ah, booby traps on this island and so when they did this show you know now as an adult with an art as an archeologist I had high hopes for it and of course they they let me down but it's it's interesting I think it's I show several episodes of this. Particular one in in class I don't know have you guys watched it. 01:28.20 archpodnet I remember when it first came out but I could never really get into it because it was just so slow and it's just there's always water that they can never seem to get rid of. And I don't know how you can make 7 seasons of guys just trying to pump out a well and it's it's interesting. So. 01:47.41 Amanda Butler I know. 01:49.22 connor Yeah I feel like I I listened to like or watched a couple episodes in the middle of it and they're like we were thirty feet down and we're finding stuff and I'm like I need a lot more context to understand how you got to this point so I never really gave it a chance. They're like. 02:05.79 Amanda Butler Oh man, you guys are missing out. You're missing out. Let me just tell you so this one It's this evolutionary process of what it's like for I think a general public who is very monetarily ah like oriented thereafter treasure. 02:08.30 connor Why are we finding stuff like for sure. Yeah. 02:24.74 Amanda Butler Very specific goal here. They are after treasure and they were not ah they did not receive or need any archaeological permits to excavate one. They bought the whole island. So so they own the whole island these 2 brothers one is an engineering dude who's a millionaire engineering firm. And his big brother who has always been obsessed with Oak Island and he was a postmaster his whole life. He was just a postman and the little brother is like I'm going to make my big brother's dream come true and you know we're gonna go do this and we're gonna find the treasure so they didn't have to have permits because it was private land and. Was had been completely ah trashed the whole you know this whole area where the money pit supposedly was had been so trashed from decades upon decades you know hundreds of actually 100 years or more of of digging looking for this treasure so archeology wasn't really in their purview. Then they things started getting weird. They started finding things outside because yeah, they were always water everywhere because they're just putting pipes. They're just drilling into the ground and being like oh man where are we gonna find pipe water. Oh we found this piece of wood is it searcher tunnel or old searcher tunnel and so. What was interesting right? off is even though archaeology wasn't on their mind. They were very interested in making sure it was scientifically sound so they would send off they would try to find experts to look at their stuff and tell them dates wise. So at least they were bringing in scientists now at some point. They started looking elsewhere beyond the money pit and they realized there's a lot of other things happening on this island and that's when they were forced to bring on an archeologist and that was a real contentious relationship on camera they were like ah grumble grumble archeology and so suudo arche ah archeology. It was the same as any other show right? where they pit the public against. Archaeologist as you know some gatekeeper of knowledge and secret knowledge that we all keep from everybody on the council. So it ended up being this really interesting relationship and now I don't know they're on season 9 now and legit. They're finding stuff like they actually had 5 or 6 archeologists on staff. This last season because they they are finding things in the fourteen hundreds they have like a 1400 um is crazy. They they've legit found. There isn't this whole place is an archaeological site. There's definitely ah, an old ship wharf there from the late fourteen hundreds early fifteen hundreds. Um, yeah, they found a lot There's more than just whatever this treasure is is interesting but then they had to fire their archaeologists. 05:06.28 archpodnet So Oak Island is so Oak Island is an island off of nova scotian canada so it's like way up northeast so that dock you're talking about is it like a ah danish viking origin. 05:21.58 Amanda Butler Right? Yeah, well so their their dates are wildly, weird. So they have medieval dates of some lead artifacts. You know like 1100 dates but that you know if they were coming on ships or part of old parts of treasure or whatever then that makes sense they're you know they're coming from somewhere older over there. But I think fifteen hundreds is the earliest of like solid grouping of dates that they have for these ship pieces um they have pieces of ships that they're. Digging out of this big swamp. But in the swamp they excavated this huge stone paved roadway and it had huge word things. The metal are like metal spikes with ah hoops in them. There's they're called something and I can't think of what they're called ah but they were meant to pull heavy things up and over this road right? So like to to drag them. Um, yeah, and so they have that and they band ended up having to stop because below one of these levels. They did. They finally ran into ah micma our pottery and so then they got the kabash put on them and they had well they made it sound like you know the bad archeologists are making them stop and especially pitting them against indigenous nations first nations in in Canada and. Making them look really awful. The the oak island people and they just decided to be angry about it and instead of working through this really complex archeological conversation that a lot of people have to have ah they ignored it shut that whole part down on the island. And are now back to just digging in the money pit for the treasure. 07:11.16 archpodnet And like this whole thing is bonkers because like the theories behind the treasure is for like knights templar Aztec Gold like just this crazy. Yeah, it's like and and people like you've been saying have been excavating there for years in life. Do where's. 07:21.78 Amanda Butler 1 yeah. 07:22.53 connor Ooh you hitting all that you're checking them all. 07:30.92 archpodnet Where did the origin of this tiny island in Nova Scotia having this mystical treasure. 07:34.83 Amanda Butler I know like why why this island and the thing is is they keep finding stuff that's like it's seriously legitimately confusing I mean they have a lead seal that they just dated to the. 15 hundreds I want to say that's ah from the english crown that they put on large like bales of clothes like bales of cotton or bales of of like large so goods and it's ah, a lead seal with a stamp in it. Um that they just found. It just makes no sense and the wood in the in the tunnel where this treasure is ah they've dug up wood that dates to the the thirteen hundreds again that's waterlogged so you're gonna have water issues. But of course they don't explain any of those. But yeah, it's just. But from an archeological standpoint. It's one of the more interesting trash tv shows out there for me because I I love to hate it and I'm legitimately true intrigued with everything that they keep bringing up because they you're you're like oh my god these they create bringing on these crackpot theorists for like the knights templar. But then they found a led cross that they not only dated but then they did sourcing of where the lead came from and it came from the south of France like I don't know I'm so I'm genuine missed. 09:03.80 connor So. So do you think it's is it a they're not working with archaeologists and only releasing small amounts of Data. So It may look complex or is it really just that weird and strange. I Feel like that's part of archeology is this contextualizing multiple researchers people working and trying to ask different questions. But if you just start digging and you find just a random artifact isolated by itself in some waterlogged hole that you created like. 09:21.97 Amanda Butler I. 09:39.73 connor You need those other bits and pieces around it to understand what's really going on So I Do you think it's just that complex or are they just not doing it right. 09:47.19 Amanda Butler I I I Legit can't have and a real opinion about that because I I don't know what the searcher pit area where they're treasure hunting that is just a whole pile of crazy I mean there's a bunch of old Digger tunnels. You know other searchers have died looking for this drowning in those deep holes that they've made themselves. Um and they have pulled up some really interesting stuff. But I Think what's interesting on the archeological side for me is that outside of the searcher Pit. So ignoring the treasure right? which is hard for. People who are interested in the in this show. The archaeology is legit and I think that that is what she was surprised all the archaeologists that they brought on was they realized they had in they had in C Two real contextual archaeological history that shouldn't be there according to all their historic documents. 10:27.19 connor Yeah. 10:45.29 Amanda Butler There's nothing that should be there and yet they have real archaeological data popping up at various parts around the Island So to your question specifically I'm not sure if they're releasing all of that information, especially the stuff that archaeologists are doing because it's going to be a lot slower. Um. So I'm not sure that but the the archaeologists were also seriously confounded when that roadway popped up and they're finding aux shoes along that road so they're hauling stuff like big stuff and shouldn't be there to them and their historic knowledge. It shouldn't be there. 11:22.28 archpodnet I think it's like going kind of go into the context people have been looking for this gold since like the early seventeen ninety s so that or that immediate area around the money pit has just like all context is lost. But I wonder if like part of that is you know we know in new england east coast. 11:24.20 Amanda Butler Who knows. 11:29.13 Amanda Butler Yes. 11:42.40 archpodnet Looting was rampant of mounds and like part of me thinks is like because people thought there was a treasure in this spot. They left the landscape alone. So now when they brought archeologists and start working outside the money pit and they're like wait a second. It's because looters were digging in the money pit. That's where they thought the treasure was they didn't need to go. 11:43.49 Amanda Butler Yeah, we had. 12:01.70 archpodnet Anywhere else and everything just kind of as an offshoot of this crazy story by like 1 dude who supposedly sailed with Captain Kidd and like that's where Captain Kidd buried the treasure like it just keeps going the levels of ah that you have to get in here is just. 12:10.55 Amanda Butler Yeah, and they found coconut fiber. That's the one that for the pirate theory like they're found coconut fiber along the beach areas and like like impact in different spaces. So it's just things that shouldn't exist. Do on on Oak Island I don't know. Maybe it's I don't know. Maybe it's ah a realm of ah a thinning between the realms who knows but that one is my that's my current fave that I'm my guilty pleasure that I watch I did binge watch because I'm in Minnesota and ah. Have the Kensington Rune stone so close by and I have I have a lot of people who bring that you know bring that discussion to me a lot or viking swords and all that that crazy. Um I did watch one. Do you guys remember so the the movie fargo the guy that. 12:49.71 archpodnet Oh god. 13:07.93 Amanda Butler Fed his friend to the woodchiper that guy. Ah yay so he he became this at the actor became obsessed because of his time here filming fargo became obsessed with the Kensington Runestone and he decided that he was with ah some random local dude from minnesota him in this guy. 13:10.69 archpodnet Yep. 13:27.60 Amanda Butler They were gonna solve the mystery of the kensington rune stone and I now I'd forget what it's called if it's called like the viking runestone. It just came out last year but I I ended up buying I hate giving my money but I so I had to I had I I tell myself it's for educational purposes. Ah but i. Watched the whole thing and it was awful right in all of the weird things and they also have this guy if you guys come across in all of your trash Tv shows Scott Walter if you heard that name. He calls himself. He had his own show called America unearthed. 13:56.71 connor I Have not. 13:56.92 archpodnet No, not the top. My head. Ah. 14:04.85 Amanda Butler And he calls himself a forensic geologist so that's the title that he gives himself. He is a forensic geologist which is not real, but that's when he calls himself and I showed the third episode of the first season. To my students when we do ourseudowork because it's it's local. He brings them out here and talks to local farmers who think that archaeologists are keeping the truth of Vikings and viking history here and so we talk about it in class about how those types of narratives especially in places like this. You know you can make sense of it from this immigrant perspective sure but understand that you are erasing real people's history here and you are negating an entire culture that is not yours and he does it. He brings in the runestone he brings in everything and this new series that I was watching the viking runestone. He becomes really best friends with this two duo group that are doing this whole thing and he brings in that he connects the knights templar I don't know why is everyone want to connect the night. What is it? What is it? yes. 15:10.23 archpodnet Yeah I don't know so it's called secrets of the viking stone. Yeah 12 episodes I think we'll have to start watching that. But even down it I've seen it even in Northern Oklahoma where people talk about how vikings got to Northern Oklahoma 15:18.29 Amanda Butler Yes. 15:27.30 archpodnet And but you look back at the immigrant history and like who's dominating like especially the great lakes region the Dakotas and Nebraska and it's like eastern europeans scandinavians especially like and they're bringing that with them and then was it the viking rune stone is is a known. 15:29.58 Amanda Butler The hand. Yeah. 15:44.27 Amanda Butler Known fraud. Ah, they've tested it right I know right? Well depend. Yeah, the the archaeologists the ones telling me. So yeah, it's been tested a billion times a different um you know a bunch of different ways and of course the Scott Walter 15:45.23 archpodnet Fake that Yeah, it's known that. 16:02.82 Amanda Butler Forensic geologist he was given access to it years ago to to test and of course he his tests and then claim that it's it's real. Um and that this is why I hate how science is used as a weapon a lot especially to lay people who don't understand it. Because they I call it science with a big s they make it sound very technical and scary and then people will just believe what you say because well I mean I guess depends on what you're saying if it's something else. Maybe they don't care. But this in particular yeah if signs of the big s sounds very technical about mica and. All kinds of things of leaving or being washed out and that's how you can tell it's real, but it's been tested. It's been and you know one of the most. The 1 thing I will say about this. This particular show is they brought on and let real archaeologists speak extensively and counter every single point. Um, whether or not the public listens to that so more so than any other shows they brought on my mentor Mike Mcclovick he was on there. Um, they had quite a few actual people but there was a swedish interpreter. Um, swedish language expert and he read the runestone and he's like regardless of it. The stone itself is real or the carvings are real. What's written is modern swedish so the the ruins of what they're actually depicting is modern swedish so it's not real. It doesn't matter what you testing the stone and all of that. Modern swedish oops. 17:37.13 connor That's that's that's that's wild. 17:37.28 archpodnet That's amazing. Oh boy well you know before we end the show today Amanda what are a couple sources. These would be books articles videos that you would recommend for anyone interested in Cahokia and it will throw links to some of this kensington runestone stuff and and. Curse of Oak Island for anyone interested. But what? what about caho working can our listeners find out more about cohokia. 17:53.71 Amanda Butler Yeah. Ah, so there's I think um, it's an overwhelming amount of information and so some of my favorite ones to check out, especially so one is my really great friend and colleague Sarah Baidres she produced a book called land of water city the dead religion and cahokee's emergence. Ah, that one's going to be more of an academic kind of it's you can easily It's good for anybody but it is going to be more in the academic world. But I think it really does a great job of highlighting religion as this causal factor for really driving cahokee's emergence and then of course my good old. Advisor timothy pocket at 1 of his most I think highly read books because it is so easy for anybody to understand. It's just your basic Ah I don't know anything about cocoko tell me about it book cohokeia ancient America's great city on the Mississippi. That's a really great one. And then also I just wanted to throw out Pbs's native America it's just a really great documentary on it connects a lot of other really great cities that and sites throughout the the throughout North America but it does especially episode 3 highlight cahokia and cahokeia's. Religious importance or the the dominance of religion at cahokia. So those would be my my 3 go tos. 19:21.60 archpodnet So all right? and well David's not here so where could our listeners find you on social media. 19:28.19 Amanda Butler So it was such a great question that you asked me because I was like man I'm actually kind of really private I don't really do I should really work on that I do have a public Twitter that I use not very well but I'm trying to get better at that. So if you wanted to reach out via the social media. Me or whatever you can find me at at Arche Ojo's and on Twitter and then just through basic email Amanda Dot Butler at m n state dot edu. You love to hear from anybody if you have questions don't don't be shy. 19:58.45 archpodnet So sweet and we'll have the Twitter handle and the email in the episode description wherever whatever platform you're listening to this episode. Okay. 20:05.58 connor Yeah, and because this is a life. Yeah, yeah, absolutely and because this is a life in ruins we have to ask you the question if you're given the chance to do it again. Would you still choose to live a life in ruins. 20:05.87 Amanda Butler Thanks for having me I Really appreciate it. 20:08.86 archpodnet Yeah, of course. 20:20.27 Amanda Butler Thousand percent yeah never look back. 20:23.21 archpodnet Excellent, well everyone we just interviewed Dr Amanda Butler you can find her on Twitter at archeojos and by email Amanda Dot Butler at http://http://mnstate.edu please be sure to rate and review the podcast and provide us with any feedback whichever podcasting platform you're using to listen to our show remember if you. Leave us a review on Itunes and email us letting us know you left to review we will send you stickers we we are we are we have succumbed to bribes. So please please rate and review um and we look forward to the ah next episode. 20:56.55 connor Spotify now has a place to review and rate stuff too and now so please do that on Spotify they yeah they didn't have that before but they do have it now so please please please send it David and overwhelm him with the amount of stickers that he will have to send out or carlton. 20:59.18 archpodnet Oh I didn't know that. 21:08.39 archpodnet Yeah, either or I'm trying to see what was the last our latest review. Let's see if it's changed if it hasn't changed and be upset guys. Yeah I think we are just disappointed. 21:18.97 connor It's still the same one I'm pretty sure we're not mad. We're just disappointed. 21:26.42 archpodnet Um, oh I'm I'm looking on Spotify I'm not even on Itunes like why can't I even pull it up and the reason being because I'm an idiot but ah here we go don't need to listen to that Chris we're just gonna edit all this empty space out I'm sorry. 21:41.25 connor I got it. Do you want to read it so on January Twenty fifth we have a review this has such a great show very knowledgeable yet relaxed. It's always interesting to see what the guest brings to the table and I'm always blown away inspired and inspired. You're getting. 21:43.22 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 22:00.50 connor Me through my Aunt's degree. 22:01.43 archpodnet Yes, so thank you? phenomenal and reach out to us to get your free sticker and with that. 22:02.70 Amanda Butler Oh. 22:08.49 connor That's ah that was just and that was just the title of the thing. The username is J M joe. 22:12.80 archpodnet Oh I can't read either. Oh I see it? Yeah I yeah fair enough all right and with that we are truly out all right now. It's time for Conor's witty joke. Okay, you want me to introduce it. 22:23.65 connor Um, you want to introduce it? yeah. 22:31.11 archpodnet All right? Connor it's ah it's that time did it play there. We go. 22:33.92 connor This one. This one is particularly bad. This one is particularly bad so you know what they say it takes guts to be an organ donor. 22:47.97 archpodnet Thank you Connor! Thank you very much and yep, thank you all right? and with that we are out. 22:54.00 Amanda Butler It's a classic.