00:01.30 archaeoteacup Welcome back. So we know a little bit bit excuse me I'll do this ah that again, welcome back. So we know a little bit more about needles and about. 00:07.91 Ronja Um. 00:13.25 archaeoteacup Sort of clothing. But maybe we can talk about it a little bit more um, seeing as we have our specialist textile Archaeologist Rodia here with us so we mentioned already that the earliest needles were probably from bone but you also mentioned that there's a lot of organic material that gets lost so could they have been made from any other material. Apart from bone. 00:33.56 Ronja Ah, yeah, sure I mean bonus eventually one of the most surviving organic clients but could be plausible that early early needles may also be out of wood I don't know to start like preparing something and if you don't need to. Point the needle through something really strong or harsh maybe would will also work. Um, yeah, but you know the organic stuff I saw a post I think a few days ago where someone was suing leather shoes. And um, they used of course all to make a hole first for suing it and then they attached the threat to a ah to a what is it a bore a bore hair like the very strong part of the bore. 01:15.87 archaeoteacup So. 01:26.13 archaeoteacup Oh like the bristles of the wow. 01:29.99 Ronja The bristle. Yeah, right or bristle. Yeah, and they attached the threat to it. Um, um, like splicing and to end and then they started suing the shoes with a spo bristle and a thread so this is the first time I saw this? um so there was really. 01:42.48 archaeoteacup Ah, wow. 01:49.60 Ronja Interesting because of course a bone bristle. It does not have a hole at the end of it where you can push the thread through so you have to attach it otherwise but that's a very interesting thing because there are so many different kinds of ah material. You can use and I know from also other indigious. 01:51.30 archaeoteacup Now. 02:08.76 Ronja Um, groups that they may use other animal hair or pointy stuff. For example I saw also something from what's it called? Ah, it's a German staer shrine. Do you know? porcupine. Oh yeah, from a porcupine. 02:24.29 archaeoteacup I Porky porcupine. Yeah. 02:27.92 Ronja Yeah, and you could also use those ah those of ah to Sue or to yeah yeah, so they are very different also local and regional. You know exceptions. Ah, where can you other stuff to. 02:31.50 archaeoteacup Ah, the the quills or whatever they're calls. Yeah wow. 02:42.17 archaeoteacup Yeah, that's really I think. 02:47.37 Ronja Point something into something and push a thread through so this is not only necessarily um, a needle like we would think of it. So yeah, just be creative and if you don't have a needle just use something else. 02:49.80 archaeoteacup Yeah. 03:02.76 archaeoteacup Which it goes back to this whole thing slight tangent here but because um, because so a friend of mine. Well colleague friend um at ah Leden University did her. Master's thesis on looking at antler. Not even Anta tools but random bits of antler that had been. 03:07.52 Ronja Um. 03:19.22 archaeoteacup From a site that had just been classified as kind of antler. You know Debris like not not tools just bits of antler Offcuts and she did you swear on them. Um, she did a load of experiments doing various different things and then compared the use wear traces that she saw on those experimental pieces with you swear on the on the antler. 03:21.32 Ronja Are. 03:39.24 archaeoteacup Um, and bone bits and she I think for a lot of them indeed. They were just random bits of antler. They didn't have any signs of use but quite a lot of them. You could see very clear signs of use. So this idea of like oh well just because it doesn't look like what we think that sort of tool should look like it's. 03:51.28 Ronja Even. 03:56.65 archaeoteacup Overlooked and I mean that's similar in this case then like you wouldn't necessarily look at a porcupine needle and a quill and be like oh that was clearly useful. So. 03:59.40 Ronja Um, yeah. 04:04.73 Ronja Exactly yeah sure and um, of course you said Antler is also because antler and bone out are quite similar but they can also be used as early needles and if we go from the from the organic material away relay to have also like metal needles of course it would start with copper. 04:09.56 archaeoteacup Are. 04:21.84 Ronja And with maybe Bronze needles and then later to R in Irony yeah. 04:25.88 archaeoteacup Um, and when so they they would have started with with copper needles but would they have been still quite strong I'm just thinking of like Copper ah wire you know and you and you view. It's very easy to to very malleable. But I guess that wouldn't have been what the needles would have been. 04:35.15 Ronja And. 04:41.42 archaeoteacup Made of. 04:42.58 Ronja Yeah I don't know I haven't tried it with copper needles but I can also think like I've tried it with them with Bronze Needles and ah when you first start suing or using them. They will ah bend very easily so we tried ah heating them up. 04:47.74 archaeoteacup Are. 04:56.82 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 04:59.62 Ronja Um, so they will get sturdier. Maybe that's also yeah, we'll work with Copper I don't know I haven't tried it. But um, we have some early copper needle fines from egypt so they have to be used in some kind of way. 05:02.98 archaeoteacup Ah, like a what's it called a need a kneeling right? The okay. 05:13.32 archaeoteacup Yeah, okay, and do you know how you said you've used Bronze So would they have been cast those needles or are they like hammered out. 05:24.13 Ronja Yeah that's actually a good question. Um I mean if you want to hammer it out. You have to make some kind of a see it I I don't know. Um. Casting could be a possibility but it's a needless, very fine and the needles we also have from the iron age. Um that are made out of iron later I think they are not cast I don't so. 05:52.49 archaeoteacup Okay, the article because I was thinking that would be really hard. 05:57.75 Ronja I was and I'm thinking about yeah I'm thinking about you know, um, some some signs but no yeah. 06:04.93 archaeoteacup And with these early the early copper and the early Bronze needle. So but they would have been would they have looked like what we think of as a needle in the modern day with a hole and. 06:14.24 Ronja Yeah, yeah, yeah, that they yeah they look very typically like ah like a modern day sewing needle a bit bigger of course because it's very hard to to create the hole at the end. But um, you know the technique was really nice. They looked like needles. 06:22.99 archaeoteacup Um. 06:32.40 Ronja Can easily sue with and I also tried some some bronze and needles which were recreated and I will swing with them works pretty fine. Theyre a bit bigger of course so you need to be strong to push those through the textiles. Um, but it works It works pretty fine. Yeah. 06:43.70 archaeoteacup Yeah, right? Yeah and I mean so that seems like there hasn't actually been much variation at all in needles like they seem pretty universally standard. Do you do you know? if there's any variation in kind of how. 06:56.89 Ronja In. 07:03.30 archaeoteacup Needles developed in different places in different regions in different times. But. 07:08.17 Ronja No like the problem also with those Beatles if they are very fine and also made out of metal. They dissolve very easily so if they are um, preserved they may have you know, really a big bunch of rushed around them or maybe they are just too fragile. 07:12.91 archaeoteacup Okay. 07:24.70 archaeoteacup Um. 07:26.16 Ronja Um, or just dissolve into the earth because it's not ah, most of the time we have metal objects who are very big. You know like buckles or feeble loss and stuff so you know they preserve quite okay, but the needle is very fine. It's not a lot of material and they are gone very easily. So it's also very difficult to. 07:36.30 archaeoteacup Um. 07:45.73 Ronja Find them and then you know to identify them as a needle and then to do research on them. There's not much going on So I hope in the future that some somebody will deal much more about those sewing needles. Actually yeah. 07:48.30 archaeoteacup M. 07:56.49 archaeoteacup Now. 08:03.33 archaeoteacup That's true. Yeah, if anyone's listening in who's interested in doing metal archaeology of metalology or anything then Yak is true I can imagine they're so small that it's hard to it would be hard to see them as a needle especially if they're covered in so much corrosion. 08:06.26 Ronja Um, no. 08:17.84 Ronja Yeah, right I mean the the technique gets better and the needles will get finer. You know the holds will get smaller because like this threat will also be smaller so you need to have smaller ah smaller needles and stuff so they get just better. 08:18.87 archaeoteacup Yeah, so. 08:31.68 archaeoteacup Um, um. 08:35.23 Ronja Finer and thinner and better and sturdier For example because if you later also use iron your needle will eventually um, last longer. Yeah. 08:45.55 archaeoteacup Um, which and I get a modern needles are from from steep steel most of the time is that correct I should know that um because I do a love sewing but ah, but no, but that's really interesting and the the thread you mentioned there. So um. 08:48.87 Ronja Yeah, mostly still? Yeah, so. 08:58.13 Ronja Is it. 09:01.35 archaeoteacup Because indeed I imagine that the use you mentioned already that that clothing would not have always needed needles necessarily um because you talked about the fact that some are some are wrapped um, but indeed you would assume that once a needle is being used some kind of thread is is also being used what would that thread have looked like. 09:17.70 Ronja Yeah, well, um, the suwing threats we know also from the Bronze age to the middle Ages. They are mostly plight threads maybe out of wool or other plant fibers. Maybe um ply. Because they are more sturdy. They are more stronger you know applies a thread um made out of 2 single threads. So for people who don't know what applies sure or if it is been just one fiber or just just one thread. It's not sturdy enough so you combined 2 of those threads. 09:40.27 archaeoteacup Right? I was about to ask what does apply? yeah. 09:53.52 Ronja Ah, to 1 so it will and you know be stronger and we will see this very often as a suing threat and um, they can get really really fine. You know also since the bronze age like the spinning techniques they evolve and they get better and the people who are spinning. You know all their lives. They're really good at it. It's a very you know. Ah, it's very nice craft. Um yeah, and most of the time the sewing threads. Um apply and were used. You know to combine the clothing and the textiles. Yeah. 10:23.44 archaeoteacup And because you're mentioning sort of spinning and the fact they're creating their own thread I'm just thinking the amount of times that I you know I have like a long off cut when I'm sewing or if I've pulled too strong and it snaps or something like that and it's annoying. But it's like oh well. 10:40.98 Ronja Um, well. 10:42.94 archaeoteacup I've got this other massive spool of thread that I bought from the craft shop here. It's totally fine. Do you think that the practice of sewing would have been different back there back then if you'd have had to be really careful about your resources or do you think it would have been similar. 10:47.10 Ronja Um. 10:56.17 Ronja Ah, yeah I mean we eventually like we have to recreate an environment where we have to think about how much time people spend on spinning and creating textiles. So this is not something we can. Easily say because we don't you know ask the people but we find most of the time top number 1 archaeological find is always a spinddu war. Um, and the amount of spindleols we find in settlements and and and burials is is very huge actually and um, so. Must have been an everyday task to spin threat either for suing or for weaving a text time. Um, so of course it is time-consuming and it is ah it is a very precious resource. But I mean I am also suing. Ah, long time. So I am very carefully and if you get better and more conscious about what you do, it doesn't happen so much that your ripple thread and you just happen. Okay, but of course um, the thought about. 12:03.30 archaeoteacup Um. 12:08.52 Ronja Resources and also recycling Stuff. You may not need anymore is more present I think in the pre-strike societies than in our society Nowadays. So if you have some threat and maybe if it's just the meter or something you maybe keep it. Just don't throw it away and just attach it to somewhere else and we see it also in text tis if they're recycled or something will be reused or something others will be attached and you know some holes get repaired and stuff with other thread colors and other thread. Diameters and stuff So It's always a collection of what people had on their hand as a resource you know and if the sheep were shaved and you don't you need to have to wait for the wool to grow back. 12:54.66 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 12:59.94 archaeoteacup Yeah, yes, true and true and actually I can I can contribute something here because um I did a lot of research on on bone needles from um. 13:01.44 Ronja Yeah, have to use something else if you don't have anything. Yeah. 13:12.49 archaeoteacup Just from Inuit though. So I don't really know much about the rest of the world but ah from from paleo inuits a prehistoric Inuit and um, there's there were some really cool ones in the archeological collections where you could see that the hole had broken um of the needle but then they just made another one below it or that they'd. 13:15.70 Ronja Um, a. 13:26.78 Ronja Um, and. 13:31.44 archaeoteacup The tip had obviously broken off but then they'd sharpened it to make it so in the end you have a tiny needle because it's really short because it's obviously been shut re sharpen so much. But that's goes with what you were saying of just as a lot more recycling a lot more reuse of existing materials going on which thinks very interesting and. 13:34.54 Ronja So sure it. 13:45.58 Ronja Yeah, yeah, exactly. 13:51.14 archaeoteacup Um, going back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier as well and sort of how prehistoric clothing would have looked like because of course it doesn't really survive that much. Um, so how do we know what it what it looked like do we have a lot of archeological evidence for it. Is it just a lot of guesswork. Um. 14:07.29 Ronja Well yes, of course as a text archologist we have to look at every other evidence we have So of course if we are lucky we have some textile fines or some organic other fines which is not necessarily a textile but also leather. 14:09.82 archaeoteacup Yeah, um. 14:23.94 Ronja Um, the fur or plant fiber finds from somewhere of course all those Aganic kinds need to be preserved in. Um, um in a very special condition. You know, even um, if it's dry or wet for example or um. 14:30.25 archaeoteacup Um. 14:34.89 archaeoteacup Oh. 14:42.76 Ronja If we have some salt which is my specialty because I working on textiles from the salt mine. So if these are you know, given those text Tis may and may preserve quite well. But if we don't have them. We have to look at other stuff for example, like I said the spindle wars if we have. 14:47.60 archaeoteacup Um. 14:57.10 archaeoteacup Um. 15:02.33 Ronja Textile productions in a settlement or from a burial some evidence there if we have ah traces of imprints in pottery. Maybe this is also a good a good way to identify textiles because maybe the pottery was was formed and put on to ah to a met for example to dry. And then you have sometimes the imprint of some weave or something on the bottom of the pottery. So So the very secondary find we have to look at if we are lucky we have some figuringgurines maybe which were carved somewhere out of. 15:27.86 archaeoteacup Ah, ah yeah, that's really cool though. 15:41.70 Ronja Ah, no antler or you know wood or stone for example and you can see on the figines maybe also from the stone edge some some patterns you know from on the head or maybe on the body and if I just some triangles and stuff like really broad patterns but we may think okay. 15:49.18 archaeoteacup So. 15:59.36 Ronja This might be a hint that the person who who cared this figurine thought about clothing and what the clothing may have looked like or what was it decorated like and stuff so there are also some hints for clothing and if we have some. Picture sources also from the iron age some early pictures of people from the situla art where we see and in metal objects some some scenes of ah of ah you know a party and they're handing wine to each other and then you can see. Okay, how are the people dressed. 16:32.18 archaeoteacup Who. 16:34.57 Ronja Um, and what can we see if they have something on their head and maybe some jewelry also is visible and how long is the clothing. What is the the figure like you know if it's just wrapped into clothing or if the woman maybe has like a really fine figure and it's maybe wearing a belt. So. It's creating an an image of the people. So this really helps us to understand How was also the clothing worn for different events. Um, yeah, that's mostly. 16:54.34 archaeoteacup Um. 17:06.95 Ronja What we look at and also other textile tools would only spin the words but also um from Wop Weighted looms. You know, like the the Loomwes also ah iron in evidence for textile productions um needed of course refine. Some. 17:23.19 archaeoteacup Because us. 17:26.14 Ronja Um, so we just try to have a look at all the all the finds. Um, which are yeah, mostly an archeological explanation. It is a yeah yeah, exactly or also in burials where we have a lot of metal. Um. 17:32.98 archaeoteacup A real real puzzle really trying to find all the edge pieces in the corners and. 17:46.12 Ronja We may get the chance to see mineralized textiles onto metal objects and if for example, a belt bucket um is getting Rusty over the time. Um, the rust may include the textile and preserve it in that way. So if we have some really rich barriers. 17:51.22 archaeoteacup Um. 18:04.48 Ronja Ah, we also look at the match objects very closely and yeah, don't scrap off the rus. So we can have a look at it. Yeah, that's mostly all of the the evidence we try to find. 18:10.10 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, yeah, Okay, and you've just reminded me of I Remember there being a lot of hype a year or maybe two I don't know time seems to fly so quickly these days of an I Think. Was I an age might have been Bronze age um dress that was found and it was reanalyzed and it turned out it would have been colorful. A Do you know? what? I'm talking of is that so something quite rare. So I mean it sounds like it's rare enough to find clothing. But I mean in terms of also the the color and and things like that. So How how. 18:35.29 Ronja Yeah here. 18:42.70 Ronja Yeah. 18:49.20 archaeoteacup Can we find that sort of stuff out. 18:50.93 Ronja Sure I mean it depends when we find textiles most of the time for example in Middle Europe we find them mostly in in wet conditions for example, um dominant Bog or something and you know because of the. 19:02.62 archaeoteacup The book sounds about right. 19:07.50 Ronja Because of the surrounding soil. Ah it will stain the textile really bad. So if you excavated most of those textile they look brownish something so not really fancy actually and you don't see the actual color with your bare eye. 19:16.89 archaeoteacup And. 19:24.94 Ronja So you have to examine those textileles and with of course with modern technology. We can quite easily um, ah depict what what chemical residues are they in the textiles and um from which plant. Um they were dy. Um, so this ah this is now at the moment common when you when you examine text tis. But if it is was a text tie excavated a couple years ago they did not make those analyzes how they reanalysed it like you said. 20:00.51 archaeoteacup I see. 20:03.17 Ronja And we're seeing. Okay, maybe if there is a color hidden. We can only see it by analyzing it? Yeah, but that that happens quite quite a lot actually with the textile finds. We also have some medieval finds. Um here in Berlin. And they all looked also very brownish and stuff. Maybe you can see some yellow and some red But for example, blue colors and green colors and stuff. Um, they will. They will not survive that long actually but you can you can always always the time. 20:31.70 archaeoteacup Okay. You heard it Here. You can always have them.. It's always Possible. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. 20:37.32 Ronja You can analyze them who know? Yeah, but that that's that's a fall for those fines and um, if we have a look at the Salt mine Finds. For example, it's quite different here because the salt preserved those text tests so Well. All the colors are visible and they are very in very perfect Condition. So I don't have to make up my mind to think is this brown really brown I can say Well yeah, this is brown because I can see red and blue and green and all the other colors really well. 21:09.21 archaeoteacup Oh Wow Okay, that's very cool and that goes though back to what we were talking about earlier as well about this perception of the past of it just being kind of lots of browns like it's like the whole thing with the um. 21:25.10 Ronja Yeah, um, exactly. 21:27.00 archaeoteacup The marble statues and how they would have actually been painted really bright colors and it just gives such a different view when you see them all brightly painted because you're so used to see you know you think oh yes, the elegance and things of the white marble and then you see them like gaudily painted bright pink and it's like oh but. 21:27.38 Ronja And. 21:34.40 Ronja In the. 21:41.16 Ronja Um, yeah in it. Yeah, there's also one of my you know science communication goal to show people. You know what we think people clothing may have looked like in prehistory. 21:44.58 archaeoteacup I Guess it's similar with these you sort of think oh yes, the rustic close to home and then actually they're bright green. 22:00.30 Ronja And and what I recreate them like on my you know evidence What I research and it's always like ah it's so shiny. It's so psychedelic I don't know if I would wear those color combination and modern tie I said well it was It was a fancy back then you know people did wear. Color combinations of ah, bright blue and and pink and I don't know green and stuff and you say yeah, it's nice. Yeah, yeah, sure I mean. 22:29.24 archaeoteacup But because I guess would it have been a ah sign of kind of wealth or something would it have been that those colors wouldn't have been available or. 22:40.10 Ronja Clothing and the social status and what we what we want to express with our clothing was kind of different from prehistoric and historic societies than we are used to now so you you would would like to send a message to the people looking at you. Where are you from what you know what? rank are you in your social community and how wealthy you are. And yeah, what's what's up. You know, just without talking to the people like okay I can see the guy from fifty meters because he's so brightly dressed. 23:02.72 archaeoteacup And. 23:18.90 archaeoteacup Yeah, so he must be yeah yeah, Sherlock Holmes would have had it easy back then like would have known everything. Um I do have one slightly unrelated question that I would still like to ask even though we're running a bit over but it's fine. Um. 23:18.54 Ronja You must be something very special. Yeah yeah, accurately. 23:34.12 archaeoteacup So of course you have sewing needles but you also have other kinds of needles that have to do with clothing production like knitting or crochet or I believe it's called Nall binding. Um, when would that have begun would that have been after sewing. 23:42.44 Ronja In it. Um, and kind of maybe okay, it's ah it's like it's a good question actually because all those specialized um text type craft I would say um is very interesting I was. 23:54.38 archaeoteacup That Okay, good. That's fine. Um. 24:07.24 Ronja Um, looking at some needles like with a hole but they are not so fine, but very broad a take from the from the bronze age in Estonia when I was um, having some excavations there and I had those those needles in my hand and I thought what are those used for. You know we are in the bronze age. No tall. Yes. 24:16.79 archaeoteacup So. 24:26.84 Ronja Ah, you know we don't have knitting at the time you know this is not ah a needle suitable for suwing if it's making maybe nets. Okay, yeah, it's a net needle could be but you know, but what could otherwise and I thought also about now binding. Because now biing is a very very old technique to have like a crutched knitting appearance and but it's way older and we have some evidence also from egypt very old finds also from the rn age and antique. So. It could also be that an na binding was common in Europe also in that time from age and iron age. But we have very very very small evidence. Ah for knitting knitting is quite new. So I know some some archaeological finds also from London. And from germanyia from the fourteenth and fifteenth century so middle ages. This is quite quite late. Um, but it probably evolved out of nall binding and crotcheting so these are just you know maybe techniques and evolutions which follow. 1 after another. Um yeah, but we can really say because like crotcheing and nall bending are mostly used for small textileles so not for clothing ah clothing your whole body but maybe just for mittens or just hasoks. 26:00.14 Ronja Or just for for a hat or something. So maybe this kind of technique was evolving and you know next to suing techniques and practices so we don't actually know. 26:18.77 archaeoteacup I So sorry I'd muted myself. Um I was I was saying we need to get this. You know time travel bus sorted so that we can go back and have a look and see if it's all sorted out. Ok um. 26:19.59 Ronja Fight. 26:28.58 Ronja It. 26:32.23 archaeoteacup Well I think we're going to have another quick break so that everybody can top up their tea but not to worry we will be back soon.