00:00.72 archaeoteacup Welcome back to part 2 of this chat with Alex Macon he talking about the Vao tapestry I'm so sorry like I know it's just I I I think because I always see it written down and then I never really have to say it out loud that much just yeah anyway, um, but it's a fantastic. 00:12.29 Alex Yeah, see Yeah no, everyone's aside, don't worry. 00:19.46 archaeoteacup Big name for someone um looking at making things. It's perfect. Um, so we know a little bit more about the kind of the the context I suppose or the background that the bayo tapestry what it depicts why it was made potentially but perhaps we can. We can go to a bit more of a detailed discussion. So. We already talked about kind of there's a little bit of a debate about who commissioned it. Um, it was probably bishop Odo are there any other suggestions of other people that it might have been or what?? What's the kind of main points of that debate around who commissioned it. 00:54.19 Alex Um, so it has been suggested that um in the past really that the queen Matilda may have commissioned it. Um, but um, the evidence for that as far as I'm aware is very slight. Um, the I think um. Been a couple of other and suggestions as well. Which I can't remember off the top of my head. But yeah, a bit bishop odo is there in the forefront. Really Yeah yeah. 01:15.98 archaeoteacup Ah, okay, yes, it's the most sort of likely probably suggestion. Okay, yeah, and but then so he commissioned it but who was it who actually sow it who were the actual embroiderers. 01:32.90 Alex Um, so again, there's been a lot of debate around this obviously people having different arguments for their own research and scholarly reasons and putting their own points of view across but the consensus now is that it was embroiderous in. 01:49.90 Alex Early medieval england and the reason there are a number of reasons for that. So First of all embroideers from um england were renowned for their skill and their embroidery work. Um, and there's lots of documentary that we did well I say lots. There's lots. Um. You can see to how much documentary evidence survives from the period. So. There's there's lots of evidence of demonstrating their skill as well as the surviving. Um the surviving objects themselves and and the fact that people wanted their their um their pieces. 02:08.64 archaeoteacup So yeah. 02:25.12 archaeoteacup So it wasn't just the English saying oh look how good we are embroidery. 02:28.35 Alex So we have no yeah yeah, no, no. And yeah, um, no so um, you have um, sorts of Kings um going to see popes taking pieces with them to give to popes but you also have requests from sorts of. 02:47.91 Alex People within ecclesiastical circles and and in the elite circles. But then when the normans arrive they actually when they're pillaging places. They're actually taking these embroideries and sending them back to places in Normandy. Um, or their or people like Queen Matilda for instance are commissioning new pieces to be embroidered which they're sending back to religious institutions that they've established themselves for for her point of view. There was a convent in con that she she was sending pieces back to. 03:17.30 archaeoteacup Um. 03:24.63 Alex So there is this reputation and William of balmsbury who who was a chronicler he he actually writes about this and it was a um, it was well known that it was a feminine art and to be good at spinning and weaving and embroidery. It showed. Um, that you were this amazing female as well. It within society so it was it had all these other connotations as well opposed to that is the fact that women in Normandy are not known for their skin and embroidery There's I did i. Research on this for a chapter I wrote for a book and there's practically no evidence discussing them as embroiderers until you get to slight later and we get the romance stories coming through and and then you get this idea that. 04:10.34 archaeoteacup Ah, okay. 04:22.34 Alex The elites were embroidering um but not necessarily for commission and it was more of um I don't want to say Hobby but it was it was more as a leurely. Ah more of a legedly affair for them and. 04:36.28 archaeoteacup Okay. 04:41.23 Alex And but and but you also get these other commentnotations as well beginning to come through that they again that it's It's a feminine art and this kind of thing but it's a heart. It's more of a high ranking it suggested that it's more of a high ranking skillp within normal society. So. There's so there's that kind of evidence. Um, really, and um, you also go Ah no, no,, go go. 05:04.18 archaeoteacup That did then sorry but it with with the with the women who would have so if we assume that they're women then um, would the women who have sown it would they have likely then been for example, upper class women or kind of the law. The ladies shall we say or would they. Would people would sort of servant classes or working classes also have been able to do this kind of embroidery. 05:27.50 Alex Um, so yes, so it was women in that period all the evidence points to it within within England being women. Um, and um, they although there's evidence in other countries that men did embroideer at this period which is interesting. Um, but you get this. 05:27.14 archaeoteacup Okay, but. 05:37.41 archaeoteacup Okay. 05:44.88 Alex Um, different women across society were embroidering so whether they were all using gold and silk. That's a different question. Um, but you you get this the evidence that um, right from the very early period that women were creating. 05:48.27 archaeoteacup Okay. 06:04.54 Alex And decorating pieces for their immediate family and their local village and then as the the period progresses you get the development of what we call central estates um, where the ecclesiastical and secular elites. Were gathering materials and therefore people together as so you can you can see that there's a development in the production of textiles and therefore the decoration along 2 different paths and then as the period progresses even more you get more evidence for um. Those 2 traditional forms but also for independent concerns being set up so we have this lovely doomsday in doomsday book we have evidence for 2 women who were embroidering and they they don't come across as being elite and. We have in winchester aldwi's wife. That's all we know of her she was doing embroidery for Queen Matilda but then you have other documentary sources like the libreliensis the book of ely. So this is the book that the monks of ely were writing about their um what what was happening within their community and around it and you have. A couple of embroideers named in that and again they weren't elites. So I think the whole thing everyone could embroider the materials they were using and the standard that they would work were working to would depend I think on their social status. 07:34.00 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 07:37.30 Alex Training What was needed and what their Patron um or what they were being commissioned to make so what their patron could afford to pay for as well. 07:44.78 archaeoteacup Okay, and so for example with the bayot tapestry. What was I Assume then that was made of very high quality. Everything like all the best materials all of the what what was the well What actually was the main material is it linen or Cotton or. 07:54.00 Alex Yeah. 08:02.95 Alex Yeah, so the ground on which the embroideries worked. Yeah, the the ground the ground fabric is um, linen and then the the majority like 99.9 percent of the embroidery is wool but there are so a couple of areas where you can see. There's a linen thread. 08:03.70 archaeoteacup Of of the panel I mean sorry yeah. 08:18.39 archaeoteacup Okay. 08:20.85 Alex Being used but the majority of the embroidery stitching is wool. Um, but so this is interesting because Wool was ubiquitous. It was used across the whole of society. So um, you can't ah say that it's a very elite thing linen was. 08:28.88 archaeoteacup The. 08:38.83 Alex Um I suppose more I don't know if if you're in the Uk more of your John Lewis type of fabric that kind of thing more I don't I yeah I bought I was hesitating to say because I hate using the class terms. But yes, yeah, it was yeah. 08:45.46 archaeoteacup And so sort of slightly uppermiddle class kind of. 08:54.35 archaeoteacup Well, but you know you might go to a marx and spencers more than waitros no waitro more than ah Asda or something. Yes. 09:00.10 Alex You eat way chose more? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and um, yeah, so that was um, whereas your silks and your gold they're they're hi esh on their designer. So yeah, so and that's. 09:10.78 archaeoteacup And Rise. Okay. 09:16.33 Alex I Suppose the way it worked out. Um, so but the the materials that were used for the hanging are perfect for what the hanging is trying to do. It's going to be exhibited in a big public space. But lots of people to view it and it's it's like seeing an alcloth in a cathedral these big designs. Um, which you can see from a distance and even if you can't see the detail you can get. You can read the story that it's trying to tell from a distance. 09:39.55 archaeoteacup Um, that. 09:47.98 archaeoteacup This is. 09:51.76 Alex And then when you get up close. You can see all these different details and things. So although the materials are not silk and gold work, Etc, etc. It's actually perfect for what it's trying to achieve um yet. 10:04.11 archaeoteacup Um, and where was it um hung actually ah have I am I asking all the awkward questions today make make it opinion Alex stick to 1 of the points. No nuance here. 10:08.86 Alex Oh the big question. 1 of the big questions. What are the many big questions I know I'm thinking I should have done a little of research. But. 10:20.43 Alex Yeah, below. No I like to sit on the fence unless it was to Doy technique and yeah, um, was so so so the most popular suggestion is it was made for bayer cathedral. 10:21.20 archaeoteacup Sorry, ah. 10:25.72 archaeoteacup Ah, or what? Ah what are the suggested places then that it was that it could have been hung. 10:34.55 archaeoteacup Hence the name. 10:36.63 Alex I don't personally I I'm not sure that it was originally made for the cathedral I like Gail Owen um crockers and ah Chris I can't remember his last name I'm so sorry. Um their um, their idea that it was actually made for um. A room in a castle originally and I can see how that would work with the layout of the story and the ah the positioning of it and how it would have been positioned around um ah the size of a room. Um I mean it suggested Dover Castle but how it would have. 11:10.13 archaeoteacup Oh. 11:14.20 Alex Fits within the the the particular parameters of that room and I think that would work very well. Um, the the beginnings of the but the tapestry the tapestry's life as ah, shrouded in kind of mystery really and you don't hear about it at bayer cathedral and. Um I think it's 14 something or other um when when it appears in in in documents where they say they get it out once a year and it's displayed around the nave. Um, so I know some people will disagree with me on that. 11:34.44 archaeoteacup Oh Wow. Okay. 11:51.33 Alex Some people would disagree with me quite fermently on that. But that's my personal opinion for the evidence that I've seen. Yeah. 11:53.47 archaeoteacup And okay and and you mentioned that in in Bay Ah the cathedral it's sort of mentioned in 1400 so I I had used the date ten seventy seven in our little time travel thing mainly because I wasn't sure indeed how soon after the battle it would have been done is that then. 12:04.83 Alex Met. 12:09.95 archaeoteacup Too early. Do you think? do they know when it was made ok my my very shallow researching into it and didn't let me tell. Okay. 12:14.78 Alex It's assumed that it's made around that time. Yes, no so you're okay, it's all right? But. Ah, now you don't have to do a load of Re-editing. It's fine. Yeah. 12:28.23 archaeoteacup Had his resolve to say and 1237 um yeah okay okay so it was it was done fairly soon after the battle and everything took place then? Okay, yeah, no interesting and um, how so you mentioned that we sort of know that it or we we could assume that it was made in England because of the kind of high level of um. 12:34.23 Alex So love. 12:47.92 archaeoteacup Seems ah embroidery skill that sort of is demonstrated through it in things and that kind of correlates with what we know of of the skills in England are there any other sort of yeah, no, no carry on carol oh I was just wondering if there's any other I mean is are there particular are there different styles or techniques you mentioned technique um of of embroidery. 12:54.80 Alex Oh oh yes, no sorry, go on. No no go on go on. 13:05.43 Alex Breath. 13:07.54 archaeoteacup That you can see between for example Norman D versus England or other areas at that time. 13:12.83 Alex Um, yeah before I answer that I just I should have said also that there are ah the other reasons for thinking that it was made in England was because the the design itself is very similar to surviving manuscripts from um from St Augustine's 13:24.47 archaeoteacup Ah, okay. 13:30.29 Alex Community in canterbury and places like that. So there's there's also that side of it as well. Not it's not just about the embroidery technique. Um, so as far as I'm aware. There's actually very little if any embroidery surviving from the Norman period in Normandy. 13:34.36 archaeoteacup Oh okay. 13:49.19 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 13:50.23 Alex Um I did read once about um some found in a burial but I've not it was a very preliminary sketchy outline I've not actually been able to track that down and I think the suggestion in the report was that it actually wasn't made locally. Um, yeah. 14:00.41 archaeoteacup Um, although well it sounds like they were all rubbished embroidery there anyway right? like those. Ah. 14:08.12 Alex I I'm not going to say that I'm going to sit on the fence but but um, but so but the so I don't know if there were any differences I mean in in the romances and the things they talk about working with and things like silk and stuff like that which you would you would ah expect I suppose. People of high rank to be to be doing um but the the use of wool on Linen. Um, you can see correlations with that sort of thing but in Scandinavian countries but also it was. 14:46.70 Alex You can argue that that sort of thing was used for hangings within early medieval england and possibly other places like Normandy as well because it's it's just the as I said earlier the materials are just perfect for that sort of thing and for depicting these large cartoon-like stories as well. Um. 15:03.40 archaeoteacup Ah, it's no, no, no carry on carry on I was just gonna make a silly comment. 15:05.28 Alex And I think that the reason the both go on. No no I I was going to I know I was just I was going to say that I think that the reason the bear tapestry has become so synomous and famous is because it survived. Um, yeah. 15:17.15 archaeoteacup I was actually going to ask. Why is the bio tapestry. You know such a big deal indeed. Yeah. 15:24.92 Alex Yeah, ah well, it's partly because it survived um but partly because um, he it was sort of rediscovered in the antiquarian period in in the nineteenth century. So victorian period for in in Uk and um, there was. 15:34.90 archaeoteacup Oh. 15:44.19 Alex During that period a lot of countries not just the yeah uk were trying to establish themselves as ah as leaders of empire and this sort of thing and they as a result of that I mean happens it happens throughout history. They were trying to show that they had this great lineage. And they should be leaders of empire and it goes right back into the mists of time and the the english in particular the bayer tapestry um had these sort of resonances as well. I mean it did it did for people in Normandy too. But um, that's. 16:07.63 archaeoteacup Ah. 16:15.41 archaeoteacup Um, round. 16:21.58 Alex Why it has such large cultural connotations particularly in England even up till today I'm not necessarily wanted to hear but it shows that they that there is this. 16:29.54 archaeoteacup Ah, see it because it it tells the story that people wanted to hear almost. 16:40.83 Alex Well no from the from the antiquarian period probably because all the or the elite family a aristocrats from that period would always turn rounds and say we go back to William we came over with William the conqueror. So yeah, you're right? actually? Yeah, yeah, yeah, but see I don't look at it like that because I always think my family probably hopefully went back. Be. 16:47.21 archaeoteacup Right? And look here he is don't you see the facial similarities. Yeah. 17:00.63 Alex Beyond that and therefore we're the ones that were subjugated by the normans but um, yeah, but a lot of the aristocrats where they like to say they used to like to say that they came over with with William the conqueror and his entourage and stuff. So yes, so it would link him with that. Yes. 17:12.90 archaeoteacup Um, and so so you mentioned that it's sort of it survived and that's what's quite special about it. Are there any other kind of big tapestries. How does it? How does it compare to sort of its contemporaries in that respect. 17:22.80 Alex Ah. 17:27.74 Alex Um, so from um, the Uk we have documentary evidence only unfortunately of another big hanging called and hope I pronounce this right? The brick's not hanging and this the evidence for this is found in that book the libreliensis that I mentioned before. The book of ely. Um, where and Earl Deman an Earl Brith North he went to fight the vikings in around nine Nine one I think it was a very man correctly and he his um wife. 18:06.32 Alex Donated to the monks at ely a hanging that was depicted the great deeds of her husband so we have this documentary evidence for that. Ah for the specific hanging. We also have ah hints through other um documentary evidence that hangings. 18:11.97 archaeoteacup Are ah. 18:24.41 Alex Depicting great deeds whether religious or secular were used um within both ah religious and secular settings. So that's within um england but in Scandinavia we have the woven textiles from the oseberg ship burial which again show us. Ah, cartoon like they show a story line possibly mythological. Um, and we have later the run um a of small fragment run hanging which was found in the church and it's. 18:46.77 archaeoteacup Um, listen. 19:00.23 Alex Ah, linen ground fabric with wool embroidery and you can see. It's not exactly the same I mean it's a small fragment but it's not exactly the same as the bear tapestry but you can see there are similarities there to that. So it's it's in this. Um and there are other examples I could cite but there it's in this melee of. 19:07.77 archaeoteacup Okay. 19:18.73 Alex Wall hangings that show great deeds and are telling stories to a population that couldn't necessarily read um as well as acting as draft excluders and decorating houses and things like that. Yeah yes, yeah. 19:23.32 archaeoteacup The. Well, That's yes, insulators. Yeah yeah. 19:35.63 Alex So yes, so it's it's part of this huge Melee Ah but like I say the the ruin fragment is small. This is this is gained the bed tapestries gained fame because it has survived so well. 19:49.93 archaeoteacup Yeah, which yeah you wonder how many other amazing tapestries. There were that maybe just didn't survive then which ah would be fascinating. Yeah, we'd see all these different stories. We'd see 5 different versions of the same battle and all these different things. 19:54.72 Alex Yeah, yeah I wish they had but you know yes Historians would love that. But. 20:07.75 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah I can imagine Well I think we're going to have a very quick break now. So that our listeners can have an opportunity to top up their tea but we will be back soon. 20:15.56 Alex Yeah.