00:00.00 archaeoteacup Hello and welcome to episode 21 of tea break time travel I am your host Matilda zebre today I'm s savoring a chi latte I went a bit lazy on this one and I'm just using the chilate powder with some milk but you know what it tastes delicious. So I don't care. And joining me hub by teabreak today is professional archaeologist Aaron Dea Wolf and are you also ah drinking tea coffee anything any hot beverage. 00:23.70 Aaron So I I am thank you? Thank you so much for having me I am going a ginger tumeric today I think it's ah it's supposed to help me with stress and I don't know if it's doing that or not but you know every little bit helps right? and. 00:29.85 archaeoteacup Ah, oh yeah, yeah, exactly ginger is and 2 break are also supposed to be really good for warding off colds and stuff right? Which at this time of year is probably probably a good thing as well to. 00:40.51 Aaron Oh good again. It can't it can't hurt it. 00:46.66 archaeoteacup To go with that. Yeah, exactly and do you generally? So that's sort of more of a well I don't even know if that were count as herbal because herbal to me is always like camile. But you're you're not necessarily a black tea drinker. You go with like more the fruity, the fruity conulctions. 00:58.66 Aaron I am all over the place I don't really have a favorite honestly most days I start out with coffee and then it sort of depends on how the day is going as if I make it off of coffee on and onto other things. 01:10.90 archaeoteacup Fair, fair tough fair enough and your coffee is a standard black coffee. Is it a fancy ah chiy expresso. Ah, let let a machotto caramel. Okay. 01:21.63 Aaron I am I am a latte guy. Yep I Ah I enjoy the espresso and the milk. Yep. 01:27.20 archaeoteacup Yeah, also always good. Well thank you very much for joining me today I appreciate it, especially if it sounds like it's a stressful time at the moment. Hopefully this takes away some of the stress rather than adding adding more to it. Um, so of course you are a professional archeologist you work in the sort of archeological cultural heritage sector. Um. And of course you do sort of independent research which we'll get into in a second but in terms of the kind of archeology. What actually got you into into archeology in the first place I always ask my guest this and every single time it's been a completely different answer. So I'm very curious. How how the inspiration hit you. 02:03.13 Aaron Sure yeah, so in high school. Um I guess it was late high school. My family took a trip to the yuktan peninsula in Mexico and I was introduced to the maya ruins at that time and that was. 02:13.91 archaeoteacup Ah, cool. Ah. 02:17.98 Aaron That would have been in 1991 or 1992 and so it was not quite sort of the tourist mecca that it's become now. Um it was a sort of a much earlier more sort of rustic I guess experience and and that really got me thinking about archeology and then. 02:23.11 archaeoteacup A. 02:37.77 Aaron Ah, my freshman year of college I took a maya art and archeology course and decided that this was a thing I wanted to do. 02:46.12 archaeoteacup I Ah but is a how come you then didn't sort of continue did or did you decide not to continue in May and archeology or did you just get drawn into other topics. 02:56.57 Aaron So a little bit of both. Um, so the school that I attended my college did not actually have a archeology degree. They only had classical archeology as a minor and so I actually came out of undergrad with an art history degree of all things and then went to graduate school to study my archeology. 03:04.50 archaeoteacup Ah. 03:07.46 archaeoteacup Oh. Look at. 03:14.46 Aaron And worked for a couple of field seasons and in Belize in Guatemala Excavating on Maya sites and um, eventually realized that there were too few jobs for my archaeologists and too many people who already had thds in the in the profession. And so I sort of changed focus and started working in cultural resource management here in the american southeast. 03:31.72 archaeoteacup Rack food. Um. 03:36.10 archaeoteacup But the work that you were doing in South America was sort of research focused excavation things rather than the cultural heritage digital. 03:44.95 Aaron Yeah, it it was It was academic archeology. So at that stage because I was still a graduate student I was working on other people's projects and so they were projects at specific sites. Ah you know, redevelloped or ah, um, understanding the the initial chronologies of some of these sites. 03:49.52 archaeoteacup Are. 03:58.18 archaeoteacup The. 04:00.40 Aaron Um, you're doing sort of first first on the ground excavations trying to reconstruct when exactly these sites spanned and you know which communities live there and how they relate to the to the other communities in the periphery. 04:09.15 archaeoteacup Okay, and in terms of so my personal experience in terms of excavation is indeed that kind of excavation so research excavations and then also working for say a commercial company who you know they're building a car park. They find a wall. We're sent in to dig up the wall and then they build the car Park. So but in terms of cultural heritage. Ah, cultural resource management I mean sorry um, especially in the Us seems to be a really big thing. What would you say the kind of major differences in that sphere in that line of work compared to kind of Excavation archeology. Ok yeah. 04:38.54 Aaron It well I think it's it's very similar to what you described with the carpark right? So cultural resource management is sort of it's sort of the shorthand for archeology as business in compliance and so I did that work for about 7 7 or eight years after graduate school and that's you know that's going out ahead of. 04:48.26 archaeoteacup Good. Awesome. Roof. 04:57.85 Aaron Projects that are required to do federal or state level compliance or environmental permitting. So if a project receives ah state level permitting or or federal permitting or receives federal money. One of their requirements may be to do environmental studies. 05:00.70 archaeoteacup Oh. 05:12.26 archaeoteacup Are. 05:14.33 Aaron And you know that looks at endangered species. It looks at watersheds it looks at um pollution it looks at archeology and so we were out doing doing exactly that work. You know, walking walking the path of a future transmission line and digging a hole every thirty meters 05:20.44 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 05:28.16 archaeoteacup Oh that's basically what we're doing now in the company. So it's like oh joy. Oh another hole. Oh great here. It is. 05:31.71 Aaron yeah yup yeah, yeah yeah and so I did that for about 7 years or 7 to 10 years or so and then was in sort of the right place at the right time when a job opened here at the Tennessee division of archaeology which is the state of Tennessee's archeology wing. 05:46.25 archaeoteacup Ah, this is. 05:51.22 Aaron And so we're part of this big environment and conservation Umbrella and that's everything again from you know, streamwater and species to state parks and recreation and archeology is a very small cog in that wheel. 06:04.93 archaeoteacup Okay, and so do you still dig or is it mainly the kind of ah more administrative site. Well administrative makes it sound small but you know what I mean like the the policy and that kind of side of things. 06:15.90 Aaron Yeah, there's not. There's not a lot of room for full scale excavation anymore. There are what 36000 or so recorded sites in Tennessee and at this point I'm the only prehistoric archeologist with our group. Um, so there's there's there's more that could be dug than I could possibly dig. 06:20.58 archaeoteacup Ah. 06:33.73 Aaron And so our focus is is much more in a a conservation and preservation side of things sometimes you know sometimes I do sometimes my back is just as happy that I'm not out there doing it anymore right. 06:37.41 archaeoteacup Then Toha. Do you miss the digging. 06:51.23 archaeoteacup I went out to an excavation site for the first time in ages the other week because I'm mainly doing the the documentation and kind of communications side of things. Um at the company but I went and did some actual digging because I was like oh I have a few hours. Why not? And oh my gosh my knees and my legs and my back. But day after I was like yep, no, this is why I prefer lab work as well. there' like the tinnitus from all the wind just whipping through your ears all the time. Yeah, yeah, basically, but so and also so alongside your job as state archeologist or. 07:11.40 Aaron Yep, yes that the permanent farmers tan. Yes, all of it. Yeah, that's yeah. 07:25.84 archaeoteacup Arche an archeologist within the state ah department the State Archaeologist soundss so much you know fancycier that ok that's fine. He might not listen to this podcast he might he might never know. Um, but you also have become the kind of worlds. 07:28.40 Aaron So there you go? Yep, Ah, he's He's my boss. Yeah. 07:44.38 archaeoteacup Authority 1 might say on the archeology of tattooing. Um, which is something that we're going to talk about today. Usually I try and give a bit more of a spoiler but seeing as we chatted with Daniel last week and I said we were going to talk to you about tattooing at last month I mean and we said we were going to talk with you about tattooing this month I feel. It's not really a spoiler. So um, how did that come about from. From a background in kind of excavation and and mayan how did tattooing become a thing. 08:09.82 Aaron Ah, yeah, well I mean for start, you're being really generous and I appreciate that you know I don't I don't consider myself the expert on anything I know a few things but you know that's the result of of having been reading for a decade and you know having formed some very close friendships with with practitioners with people like danny. 08:24.87 archaeoteacup Saved. 08:26.64 Aaron And you know indigenous practitioners and full-time tattooists and you know this it. It. It takes a village to do good research and you know I don't think any of us sort of stand on our own in that regard. But all of that aside, um. Yeah I got I got interested in the topic back while I was still doing my archeology. My first tattoos that I got were in graduate school were of of Maya Glyphs and you know I think a lot a lot of archaeologists get tattoos of the things they're studying particularly in graduate school and um. 08:47.39 archaeoteacup Oh. Yeah, pretty much It's like a good phma Cp like it's an easier Way. You just turn up to your interview and say look This is what I have studied. 08:58.14 Aaron Yeah, that's right? Yes, we put it on the front page of your cv. Yeah, um, but you know everybody there's kind of a general awareness that the maya you know, engaged in a lot of different kinds of body modification. 09:13.74 archaeoteacup Are. 09:15.91 Aaron And you know while you're working there. You're you're finding tools you're finding Obsidian blades that you know are stingray spines things that you know are associated with body modification and you know I thought about it a little bit at the time just because of myself having those tattoos and you know other graduate students and talking about it. 09:23.15 archaeoteacup Oh. 09:33.30 Aaron But then when I switch focus to working here in the american southeast that sort of followed me in the back of my head for a number of years and I started getting interested in this in this question of if tattooing was happening in the past. Why aren't we finding it archeologically and particularly when you look at the first. 09:49.75 archaeoteacup Um, burn. 09:53.29 Aaron Accounts of European And Native American Interactions all along the eastern seaboard of the United States starting in. Let's say the ah fifteenth sixteenth centuries an incredible number of those accounts describe that the native americans who were encountering the europeans that. The native americans were heavily tattooed and the language isn't quite there yet. So you know the word tattoo wasn't part of the european lexicon yet. But you have these accounts where you know spanish authors will describe that um native men in Florida had these designs on their skin which were pricked in with thorns and so could never be erased. 10:13.66 archaeoteacup This is it. 10:31.68 archaeoteacup Um, ah yeah, fair, ah sorry one second I'm afraid I might need to just go in ah deal with the baby. So so hold that thought um I'm going to pause the recording. Hopefully I won't be longer than like 10 minutes 10:31.84 Aaron And she' like okay well you know that that okay they're talking about tattooing there right? And yeah, go ahead. Oh Oh Sure. So yeah, no problem I will just put on the mute button here. So just holler at me when you get back. 10:49.64 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, very thank you? Ah so yes was pretty was pretty clear indeed that they were referring to tattoos of of these ah cultures that they were experiencing and that they were meeting. 11:03.32 Aaron Yeah, exactly and and there's art from the region that suggests tattooing was practiced at least several hundred years prior to the arrival of europeans and so you know as an archeologist working in this area. This got me interested in the question of well if people were. 11:13.33 archaeoteacup Oh. 11:22.29 Aaron Doing this if people were practicing tattooing then why weren't we finding the artifacts of that practice where was the material culture and at that time there had been. You know maybe a dozen identifications over 2 centuries of possible tattooing implements from North America and 11:27.20 archaeoteacup Ah. 11:36.96 archaeoteacup Of a of a. 11:40.45 Aaron You know this this really bugged me right? I mean the thing about archeology is you know we think we're interpreting the past we think we're understanding, people's behaviors and what they did and how they you know saw themselves in their in their societies and in their environments and here's this entire. Behavior This entire aspect of human culture that we were apparently just blind to and you know the great thing about doing independent research is that you're not hemmed in then but by by Geographic Constraints or you know institutional constraints and so I. 11:59.50 archaeoteacup Earth for for. 12:07.52 archaeoteacup Ah, true. 12:13.88 Aaron You know in working on this question for North America it sort of became clear that this is an issue all over the world that you know we know the ancient egyptians tattooed. We don't know what tools they use to do it. You know? and so then how do we solve that problem and that's sort of been the this through line that runs through my research then is this idea of. 12:17.72 archaeoteacup Yeah, so. 12:33.10 Aaron You know a why have we overlooked this and B how can we be better about this. 12:36.21 archaeoteacup Exciting. Well we're going to talk more about that in a second. But first of all, of course 1 more question I have to ask you as this is teabreak time travel if you could travel back in time. Where would you go and why. 12:50.11 Aaron You know I don't think I have a good answer for that. Um, there is There's just there's there's so that there's so much of the past that would be amazing to see and so many different places and so many different cultures you know for my own research being able to go back. 12:51.96 archaeoteacup All Answers a good answers. 13:07.84 Aaron Into the mid-holocene in the southeastern United States would be amazing. Um, you know for any reason you, you could possibly think of going back to see the the ancient mayo would be incredible. You know there's there's all of these cultures that you know we as archeologists I think really appreciate. But. 13:17.62 archaeoteacup Yes, the. 13:27.57 Aaron Don't really understand in that first person sort of way and so getting to see any of them would be a privilege. 13:28.87 archaeoteacup Yeah I mean it could. There's there's a slight stereotype right for for americans and australians tourists coming to Europe that you do a. Ah, tour of the whole of Europe you know and and spend one day in each place so that could be a similar thing for going back in time right? like you do a tour of the whole time. Period. 13:42.72 Aaron Yes, there you go there, you go be the worst time travel tourist ever just hit all of the highlights. Yeah yes. 13:52.10 archaeoteacup Quick photos stop Ok back on the bus that sounds I mean why not let's So if we start if we ever doing ven time travel exactly. 13:59.22 Aaron Yeah, right on on to giza. Yeah yeah. 14:06.40 archaeoteacup Cool. Well thank you so much for joining me in my teabreak today and before we discuss about tattooing and the research around it a bit further. We're first going to journey back to around two thousand four hundred years ago and I'm going to completely butcher the pronunciation of this but um, a can can ah correct me later to the. Paz pa 0 valley in the alai mountains of Siberia somewhere in the middle ah of the fifth century bc I've put now here. But then I said two thousand four hundred years ago I got what have I done that why did I say do you know which one's correct. 14:38.92 Aaron So but third, third through fifth centuries bc yeah yeah. 14:44.43 archaeoteacup Yeah, right? So ok I'll do somewhere in the middle of the Fourth Century Bc then that works better. Okay I got I'll read you that bit sorry Chris um, who's editing this the mouth. Um, ok, let's start again. So let's first journey back around. 14:53.72 Aaron Not nice. 15:03.51 archaeoteacup I'm just going to go. Okay, sorry Chris so before we talk a little bit more about tattooing and the research surrounding it. We're going to journey back to the Paza Rock valley I apologize in advance for any butchering that I do of that pronunciation. Aaron can correct me in a moment. In the altai mountains of Siberia somewhere in the middle of the fourth century bc it's Dusk. There's the clicking and purrying sounds of insects and other wildlife fills the air above the wide plains before us stands a huge pile of freshly dug soil heaped around the smooth stones of a tomb in front of the mount a crowd of people are gathered some holding flaming torches. Others bearing wreaths of woven hair and grass they watch in silence as a procession approaches several figures holding aloft a stretcher on which lies a muscled middle aged man. Although he's wrapped in expensive cloths one arm lies uncovered along his side revealing several elaborate swirling tattoos in the form of different animals. They seem to dance in the flickering firelight. But then the procession moves into the tomb and the animals fall still I may have been slightly inspired when I was looking at the pictures. So how do you pronounce that correctly. Areon do you know? Okay, good that makes me feel better. Okay, perfect. Ill I'll ask you know if he can. 16:10.49 Aaron I I do not know ah you you'd have to ask you'd have to ask Gino. Yeah. 16:17.93 archaeoteacup You can comment on this ah podcast when it's released and go oh you guys you don't know anything. Ah so yes, so these are of course the famous the famous mummies puzzle puzzle puzzle rock buties that were found in in the caves in Siberia and so we're going to talk today about tattoos and we already spoke a bit with Danny last week about tattooing. Materials and the the kind of tools and the methods and the techniques that are used but we have Aaron here today to tell us a little bit more about the tattoos themselves and the research that goes into them so we'll get a bit more into the details into the next section. But first of course we always have to look at the most asked questions on the internet which. 16:44.10 Aaron Oh. 16:55.33 archaeoteacup As I said to Danny there was surprisingly little about tattooing actually when you did a sort of Google Autofill search thing. There's there's very little about especially ancient tattooing which just I think proves your point that you said that we're not interested enough in past tattooing apparently so of course the the. 17:09.49 Aaron That. 17:13.86 archaeoteacup Main questions were all about origins. Um, so for example, when did the tattooing start and who did the first tattoos can you and enlighten us at all about this right? Any ideas. 17:24.59 Aaron Boy wouldn't it be great to be able to answer those. Um yeah, let's start with the small questions. Well, ah, let's start with the start with the really small ones right? Um, we we don't know they're there. They're just there just are not enough data points yet. 17:37.81 archaeoteacup Earth. 17:40.18 Aaron Um, you know we know tattooing as a practice goes back at least 5000 years that's the earliest direct evidence so far if it goes back 5000 years it goes back further. We just don't have the archeological or historical evidence to talk about it in those terms yet and is for who is doing it. 17:48.83 archaeoteacup Yeah. 17:58.27 Aaron Again I don't I don't think we know enough to really say you know we we can take we can take historical cultures and you know based on what we know about them project into the past and that's you know that's one way of looking at at how people behave in the past, but it also comes with some dangers right? You're projecting. 18:14.27 archaeoteacup Live. 18:17.40 Aaron These things over time and space and the further you go from from the cultures you're using the more the more error you're incurring but but doing that I think we would intuit that the people doing the tattooing were not just. 18:24.73 archaeoteacup Moving. Ah. 18:33.41 Aaron Every every dude around the campfire right? that these were practices that were probably done by Healers by Shaman by ritual practitioners because of all of the things that were tied in with them because of the sacred symbols because of the letting of blood. 18:43.60 archaeoteacup Ah. 18:48.89 Aaron But it was not just a casual thing that was done. 18:51.96 archaeoteacup Ah, so but so it's assumed that it was sort of part of some kind of ah hate. He used the word ritual but you know what I mean I in terms of sort ritual ceremony it just it's ritual I do I do. 18:56.49 Aaron I look look. We're archeologists if we don't understand it. We call it ritual you You know how this works right. 19:07.97 archaeoteacup And just like to pretend I don't do it but who know I definitely do it? Yeah, but ah, but ah, rather than necessarily so it's it. It would likely have occurred I suppose around the same time that maybe ornamentation or all kind of that we see evidence for for other forms of decoration starting would you say or do you think that it could have even been. Earlier than that. 19:27.89 Aaron Um, well right? I mean boy that would be cool right? Um I mean you know but body decoration is one of the what do they call it the behavioral bees right is one of those traits that makes allegedly makes biologically modern humans different from our cousins. 19:33.90 archaeoteacup Yeah, how. 19:43.36 archaeoteacup Is. 19:45.38 Aaron You know it's what makes us supposedly stand out from you know Homo erectus and all these other all these other individuals who are roaming around the landscape um before us and you know as soon as humans become human. We start decorating stuff. We start making beads. We start. 19:51.40 archaeoteacup A ah. 20:02.50 Aaron You know, processing ochres for pigments like it's it's really deeply embedded in who we are as a as a creature and you know sure right? I mean what? what's it. What's it take to to to get that first accidental tattoo. You know when you when you are around a camp fire and get you know. 20:14.94 archaeoteacup Yeah. 20:20.24 Aaron Poked by the piece of wood with charcoal on it that Mark never goes away. But. 20:21.64 archaeoteacup The this was actually a really interesting point that Daniel raised last month in that he one theory that he had from his mentor was that it was during the. Butchering process because you're covered in all this sort of fat and then that gets mixed up with the soot of the fire as you're processing and then you have these sharp obsidian blades so you just automatically get little cuts and Knicks everywhere and then somehow that turns into tattoos which I really like that theory. 20:45.80 Aaron Right? Well I mean you know I think it's I mean obviously people are going to be aware of the the possibility of human skin holding pigment because of accidents like that and then you know at the point at which people then have complex symbolism if you're paint if you're painting something on Cave walls. 20:56.64 archaeoteacup Ah, the. 21:02.79 Aaron And it's you know, semi-permanent or if you're painting it on bodies and it's semipermanent how much better and more important is it to put those same designs on skin in a way that they don't go away in a way that's that's there until the person dies and so I think it's a it's a quick step to the side to reach. 21:13.70 archaeoteacup Um, move yeah and. 21:19.66 Aaron This idea of scarification or tattooing. 21:22.53 archaeoteacup Ah, but indeed but the short short answer is we don't We don't know when when dead doing started or who did the first one. Good good. Well now that we've covered that let's have a very quick break and we will be back soon. 21:24.29 Aaron We don't know safe.