00:00.88 archaeoteacup Welcome back everyone I hope that your tea has been topped up maybe with some lovely fragrant el grey which is apparently a lot sweeter than english breakfast. You knew. So ah, thank you? So so much tash for telling us all about the wonderful satton who helmet and burial and we did get quite philosophical in the end as well. But we already introduced. Work a little bit um in the first section of this episode but maybe we could go to a little bit more detail now because as well as doing commercial archeology you of course are a presenter um a public historian as you as you quoted at the beginning. So how did that kind of first come about how did you first get into doing. Kind of Tv work other forms of media outreach and. 00:41.50 NATASHA BILLSON Well I regret calling myself a public historian now. But no, you know what it this is the thing it's it's so great. What you said that is the Tv work. You know it is a different medium in itself. Um, you have to be adaptable to be able to. 00:43.83 archaeoteacup And recording. 00:59.38 NATASHA BILLSON To get the work effectively. So I started I think my first job was actually in Ukraine I was doing a lot of translating work for um from russian and ukrain into english and that's where you know that was through my husband who had a friends. 01:09.98 archaeoteacup Okay, okay. 01:18.56 NATASHA BILLSON And new current time who worked in production and I was visiting him quite often and I was getting like just ah, something to do to learn and something more fun because we were thinking of I lived in Ukraine for a little bit and it came like one of my jobs and then when I was in between coming back. You know digging in. 01:29.38 archaeoteacup Okay. 01:38.15 NATASHA BILLSON London I'd use all my toll time so time accrued from traveling and all my annual leave would fly over to Ukraine see my husband and then and then do this tv work and so that was from 2016 and I was doing 2016 or 2017 I started doing the sort of. 01:42.67 archaeoteacup Right. 01:49.97 archaeoteacup Okay, so. 01:56.86 archaeoteacup Rise the. 01:57.80 NATASHA BILLSON Dubbing voice over work and then from that that transpired into them saying you know, do you want to try and do some stuff for Tv or for our online channels and I'm like okay, let's try this and so I you know that's really where I got my my skills started to develop. 02:15.68 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 02:16.17 NATASHA BILLSON Um, in ukusa media the first real kind of opportunity fell in 2019 when I was able to fly to Egypt to do a show called the unexplained and unexplored with some. Amazing ah explorers who were traveling you know all over the world to try and answer these these legends of where these artifacts were and I was on the episode I think where they're looking for the arc of covenant and you know it. It was good. Fun. 02:51.99 archaeoteacup Ah, cool, ah proper in the other Jones style. 02:55.18 NATASHA BILLSON Ah, was it. Yeah, it was. It was fun and they they were so great just to chat to in general such a lovely team to work with um and that was my first that was my first Tv experience I've been thinking oh my goodness like this is quite scary I've been flown to egypt to talk about you know? Um, what was I talking about I was talk get half forgotten now i's talking about. But what? what it was that I had done some research on prior because I'd I'd worked in Egypt as well. Um, and yes I was able to talk a bit I'm I'm very random like I've actually honestly when I say I traveled all over the world I really have um to to her and so yeah, my first team job was there and that was with discovery and science channel. 03:16.79 archaeoteacup They're right? ah course he had but. 03:28.24 archaeoteacup Ah. 03:33.76 NATASHA BILLSON And from that I started doing panel tv shows which is where you're a talking head. You're one of many people in the studio explaining a story and that's why I say I'm sometimes like a public historian or a public archaeologist of course first and foremost where I'm a part of many people. 03:40.47 archaeoteacup First. 03:47.26 archaeoteacup There. 03:52.88 NATASHA BILLSON Explaining generally speaking the mysteries the unexplored um answers for for an artefat or civilization. Um, they always have mysteries in the title. But that's just because what? well. 04:04.35 archaeoteacup Of course it's you know I use that a lot as well of my things mysterious object. We have no idea what was useful what we kind of do. But you know what is this exactly. 04:10.62 NATASHA BILLSON Exactly that's what you you always got to start it off like that don't you you start off like oh what is this? You know you question it and then you get into the nitty gritty. So all those Tv shows have that format where you're questioning at the beginning then you start to answer and there's a group of you who are. 04:24.34 archaeoteacup That. 04:29.30 NATASHA BILLSON Doing that you don't know each other effectively because you're all different expertise Now you know you have an archeologist an engineer um an architect like you know it depends. What what? you're talking about what the subject will show is and your job is to explain from your perspective the said object in question. 04:29.76 archaeoteacup Okay, yeah. 04:45.54 archaeoteacup Said object things which I guess that also must have meant that you had to have an extremely broad knowledge base. Yeah. 04:48.41 NATASHA BILLSON Yeah, all settlement so much research honestly like so you're filming so when I say with these panel shows. Sometimes you're doing 6 episodes to 8 episodes in one day so it's a 12 hour shoot and you know just like this dark room. 05:02.46 archaeoteacup Oh well. Ah. 05:08.28 NATASHA BILLSON Just lights on you. You're filmed in a certain ways you get got this bright light and then you've got a producer just asking you questions about said subject Now you know prior to the interview you already know the the subjects and what they want you to cover so it helps with the research sometimes they send you. 05:14.68 archaeoteacup The. 05:22.50 archaeoteacup Right? yeah. 05:28.40 NATASHA BILLSON Their research notes but obviously depending if you've worked with a producer. Not you you want? To fact, check every single thing that they've said and which they're they're happy with you know youre doing as well. Um, you know and then once you build like a really good rapport with these production companies becomes a bit easier because then you know how they work and you know oh okay, they've really researched this. 05:28.38 archaeoteacup Okay, yes, okay, let's get. 05:43.95 archaeoteacup Yeah, you can trust them? yeah. 05:46.80 NATASHA BILLSON I don't have to worry too much. Yeah I can trust them if if sometimes when you're talking they might say oh do you think you could say this on this like hint towards that and sometimes you do Sometimes you don't want to is your choice. You know? yeah. 05:55.52 archaeoteacup Right? I was going to ask about that. Actually how whether that's happened to you before with I don't know especially with these sort of programs that are almost slightly on the edge of the suit. You know the kind of really going for the mystery. 06:08.61 NATASHA BILLSON Well this is the thing This is the thing. So all all those shows start with that and it's really difficult, especially when you um you you know how it's going to be edited so you know that the beginning they're going to tease it in this way and then they'll give you an opportunity. 06:11.84 archaeoteacup Yeah. 06:17.93 archaeoteacup And. 06:25.60 archaeoteacup Yeah, okay. 06:25.98 NATASHA BILLSON To explain it generally speaking. So even if you tease in this sort of oh this mystery looks so unlike anything we've seen before who could have made this um you might they might cut that and put that in the trailer in the beginning. You also have opportunity later on to dive into and say actually you know. 06:33.95 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 06:43.57 NATASHA BILLSON First glance we think it's this. But really when you look into it. It's not mystery. We can know these people made it using these tools. We have these objects in the archaeological record. So there are times when you have to tease that and it's really hard when um, there's ones that are kind of based on this. 06:45.42 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 07:03.35 NATASHA BILLSON How to say this politely. You know when so I've recently done I've done Um, the show has an air yet and there's one that kind of looks at the aliens and the Ufo speculation more Ufo speculation and why. 07:16.25 archaeoteacup Right? there. 07:22.31 NATASHA BILLSON Actually really found interesting about the show when they pitched it to me I've worked with this production company on maybe 4 or 5 different shows over the last four years um so I know them really well and I had to chat with them when they when they pitched to me I said like. 07:28.27 archaeoteacup Again per her. 07:38.10 NATASHA BILLSON I've read this I need to see your notes I want to see where you're going with it like I need see everything and I understood Actually what they're doing is is in because I said to them look I don't want to like upset people who really believe in this stuff like it's not because these people who really do believe in it and I've I've met them and they're their fanatics. But. 07:41.85 archaeoteacup Ah. 07:48.60 archaeoteacup Right. In. 07:55.84 NATASHA BILLSON That's that's their world right? They really believe in in ufo sightings in folk cook. Yeah, which is I didn't realize is like the hotspot in Europe um for these sightings. Um and they really really believe in it so you can't be just be like on dismiss them straight away because that hurts them. 07:57.80 archaeoteacup The air right? okay. 08:09.67 archaeoteacup Yeah, and then they're immediately on the defensive and yeah. 08:13.55 NATASHA BILLSON They're offended. They're upset they're defensive. Yeah, so so sometimes there's a way of doing where you acknowledge that. That's what they think and then what I loved about the show was then we actually talk about okay, this is why we think people are seeing this because we have these you know 3 airports are really close by you get a lot of air traffic in this region. And it's Continuous. You know then we've got military bases nearby as Well. So All these factors could lead to why people have these so-called sightings and it's just putting a bit of another perspective on why these people think that without offending them. You know because it's not nice. 08:32.64 archaeoteacup Um, is there? yeah. 08:39.48 archaeoteacup Yeah. 08:50.48 NATASHA BILLSON And then the data do that. 08:50.56 archaeoteacup No, which and I think that that's a really interesting point as well because I can remember when a certain Netflix alleged lot documentary even though it definitely wasn't a documentary um came out and there was a lot of you know lashback from it in the archaeological community. But then. 08:55.46 NATASHA BILLSON Yeah, yeah. 09:03.79 archaeoteacup Indeed I remember having a whole discussion about it with some of my colleagues and some of them were pointing out like yeah, but that's exactly the wrong approach to take because if you just say no this is all wrong. It's all false then you're just playing into the kind of assumption. Yeah, that exactly? yeah so I think that's a really good point. You make to. 09:09.37 NATASHA BILLSON Yeah, into the narrative that we have been painted by pop popular pseudoscientists and you know. 09:23.66 archaeoteacup But it needs to be acknowledged but then approached in a in a kind of different way like it. Yeah, yeah, as we've as we've said in this episode. Yeah. 09:25.97 NATASHA BILLSON Because you know everything's interpretation you know? and yeah, it's interpretation. We have scientific backing which is again a number of people supporting it right when you put when you put an article in for a journal is peer reviewed. 09:37.65 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah there. Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly. 09:43.54 NATASHA BILLSON So that's the process and the issue we have with these two scientists is that their research is not peer reviewed but that's not said publicly people are just bashing them say no, you're wrong. So that's not helpful as or to all these people who listen to the podcast as well I've had like family friends come up to me. But oh yeah, listen to this podcast with them. 09:55.81 archaeoteacup Yeah. 10:03.17 NATASHA BILLSON We're being vague about this on purpose. But I hope you know who we're talking about I listen to this podcast like you know obviously got millions of hits I'm going to buy the book and I said look you can buy the book I can look if you wanted you can, but um I've spoken to friends who have really said that it's actually really historically inaccurate. 10:03.48 archaeoteacup Yes. 10:09.99 archaeoteacup To Dad Token bond but you should also. 10:20.77 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 10:21.77 NATASHA BILLSON And not logicly inaccurate I go and it's just what you have to understand is ah the the thing that we must acknowledge is that these pseudoscientists are brilliant storytellers. They're so good and this is something we as profession need to acknowledge and say what do we need to do to be better so that the public listen to what we're saying and. 10:31.40 archaeoteacup That's so good. Yeah, that yeah. 10:36.16 archaeoteacup There. 10:41.14 NATASHA BILLSON Enjoys the story of how we tell the tales of the past and that we are using it from a more structured informed approach slow. It's it's about the storytelling more than anything else which is why these Tv shows do so well because they first get the mystery tantalize like you know you're dangling a tway in front of the cat. 10:46.76 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 10:57.50 archaeoteacup There. 10:59.63 NATASHA BILLSON Then you bring them in reel them in and then you start to give them the fat slowly and then was oh wow. That's so interesting and you're just doing it in that storytelling way. 11:04.27 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, which yeah and I'd be interested to hear then. So I imagine I think I can sort of guess what you asked would be but just to say because I one of the other questions that came up when all of this stuff came about is people were asking like okay but as professional archaes should we actually engage. With this material like not necessarily in the in the negative way but in such a productive way but or should we just kind of ignore it because you know surely engaging with it is actually giving it a lot more Publicity. You know all this kind of thing I'm curious what your opinion on that is yeah. 11:36.68 NATASHA BILLSON I mean ah the future community is small. Um so any input would be less than nothing. However, the input we see is nearly always just bashing them for. Ah. Basically being idiots. That's what you see when you read it. People are not. They're so direct where they're like this person is talking nonsense that I don't think it works. It's counteractive and it's just not. That's why don't my Twitter and luckily now Twitter is kind of like gone. Um. 11:53.23 archaeoteacup Right? Yeah, yeah, right here. 12:09.69 NATASHA BILLSON But when I used to just read I I just I just can't deal with this. It's negative vice people just nasty and they're just happy to say this out outright and you're hurting a lot of people's feelings in the way and people are going to distrust archaeologists even more so and think that we're gatekeeping because we're not people don't understand how long it takes for research to be published five years ten years twenty years 12:15.67 archaeoteacup The f. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:29.66 NATASHA BILLSON You know a hundred years like it could take bloody ages for something to be published exactly exactly. So I think ah trust needs to be built between the public and they they have this issue when you have ah people given a platform who have a large audience who listens to them. 12:33.67 archaeoteacup Ah, sometimes a world war happens in between and then you have to you know? Yeah, exactly. 12:48.50 NATASHA BILLSON And and the said person is saying our killed just don't like ah me and our theories you have to have then arch, youre just come out and say something that we don't like you you know is that there's no substance behind what you are saying where is the the proof where where. 12:51.77 archaeoteacup The. 12:59.52 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah was the evidence. Yeah yeah. 13:06.38 NATASHA BILLSON Because for something to be pseudo. There's no evidence exactly that's all it is. That's all it comes down to and even that is help people don't get sometimes. 13:14.25 archaeoteacup Because they think there is evidence but it's like you and you're like no no, no, this is also interpretation. This isn't just hard fact. Yeah yeah. 13:20.33 NATASHA BILLSON Yeah, but it's interpretation with 0 facts or its interpretation with very little um scope of maybe other settlements that also have similar a similar source setup. 13:32.29 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 13:33.65 NATASHA BILLSON Where you could kind of say. Okay, so if they made it like this and you know we've got the system over here that did something similar. Let's let's let's look at both. There's none of that. 13:41.80 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah, which well so one final question before before we wrap up is if for example, other archaeologists might be listening in and thinking. Okay well I do want to try and engage and you know but like become a bit more. Um. Involved with sort of popular media outreach and that respect because I do know a lot of people do find it hard to to think even where to start you know or how to engage with with non archeological communities in that way. What would be your sort of advice for those first steps in getting started with that kind of thing. 14:13.73 NATASHA BILLSON See I think it comes down to um, where you what your career to go or what you're passionate about so for me, Um, when I did archeology I wanted to find a way to get anyone and everyone to interact with the past in a way that was easy for them to understand. Get rid of the academic Jargon and that was always a passion for me so any opportunity as commercial archaeologist to work on these community projects is always something I put myself forward for um and then I was known in every company basically that I would be the one I'd be more than happy to be on the community projects. Honestly. 14:41.31 archaeoteacup Burn. I Just send tasks. She'll be fine. 14:50.38 NATASHA BILLSON That is literally what happened at 1 point um I wouldn't even know about it and I'll just hear this phrase and about what what am I doing now then I'm all wicked you know and I get to talk to the public about this and it's literally those skills you need to get if you work in the commercial sector which is developer led projects where the archeology has to be done apart planning permission. 14:57.52 archaeoteacup Yeah. 15:09.52 NATASHA BILLSON Um, if you have the opportunity to do community projects. Do it because that's where you will learn how to speak to individuals and who you're speaking to you will have to change the way you um convey the information you know if you're speaking to a 7 year old versus a eighty year old. You have to speak in a different way. 15:13.87 archaeoteacup Earth. 15:23.47 archaeoteacup Right now. 15:27.35 NATASHA BILLSON And that's where Tv comes in and people will scrutinize sometimes the great british dig because they think we oversimplify something? Um, but what they don't understand is the point of the show is for individuals to ah and to to be introduced into archaeology and to be inspired to to read more. Um and you know there's only 45 minutes 15:41.64 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:46.47 NATASHA BILLSON Or something you know to to summarize a whole week's dig Um, and it's all about community members kind of getting involved. Um, so it's not really ah oversimplification Sometimes you just need to know how to convey the information in a certain amount of time. Um and be concise so those are the skills you need again, Learn how to speak to people. 15:57.20 archaeoteacup Yeah. 16:05.62 NATASHA BILLSON In a way that's not um, degrading in any way I Know that's a really weird thing to say but people do that. Um, they they really do speak down and they don't need to this is the thing nobody most people who do that? don't mean to when they start to explain something but they do and that's because. 16:10.85 archaeoteacup Speaking down. Yeah. 16:19.20 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 16:23.90 NATASHA BILLSON Ah, you know when you go to a conference you're seeing the same people over and over again. So you'd learn how to convey the information in a way that's for like-minded individuals who have similar research um interests as yourself all literally in the same discipline same subdispline of another subdiscipline right? You have your own language in itself. Um. 16:31.31 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah. 16:42.71 NATASHA BILLSON So it's been able to deconstruct that for the public masses. That's why social media is so good because you're able to to learn for yourself. How to convey that information and what works for you and what you enjoy what you don't enjoy doing so especially now everything has changed with the nuclear prison. Sorry it's my prince. It's my princess again. 16:49.87 archaeoteacup Yeah. 17:03.24 NATASHA BILLSON Um, you know everything has changed now with social media and I would say now social media is really the best place to gain those skills put yourself out there because no one's going to give you a job you know, just because you like oh I want to be a presenter. It's not how it works anymore. Anyway. 17:10.48 archaeoteacup Are. 17:18.80 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, whole Familo And yeah, ah. 17:20.95 NATASHA BILLSON You know you really have to train. Yeah I mean yeah, there are still people who like have family links or friends links. Of course you're always going to get that especially in the the main production houses but for a lot of the panel shows and things like that they're looking for people who generally specialize in something but also put themselves out there. 17:27.63 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 17:40.18 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, um. 17:40.30 NATASHA BILLSON Online because they want to see who this person is because you know um I should say when you get this is kind of like a circle again. But when you get cast for a show. Ah, they've really kind of googled who you are and they're seeing the different types of content if there is about you or if you are specialized in something. 17:51.72 archaeoteacup Right. 17:59.49 NATASHA BILLSON They need for a show us how you kind of pop up on their on their search and you know you have like a Zoom call with the the casting team and and that's it one off you know they might ask you some questions and then that's it and then again they're going to use your reference from what you have online. 18:08.32 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 18:14.83 archaeoteacup Yeah, so if you have a strong a sort of strong background in that already or a strong presence online and you've shown that you've tried to take the effort to to get those skills then yeah, you're more likely to. 18:16.95 NATASHA BILLSON To see okay who is this person. 18:25.88 NATASHA BILLSON Yeah, because you know as you and know Matilda like we the more content we make the more podcasts you do um the interviewing techniques you you learn as as you do it and you become better and you know how to steer conversation like how many times that I go waffle on because it's not my podcast. 18:34.53 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18:43.10 NATASHA BILLSON It was my because i' would have to be like you know tuned in and like make sure it stays in but it's not my one so it's fine. You know it probably is you know? and but anyway if you want to do a b tv present now work in Tv I would say. 18:50.51 archaeoteacup On that topic. Ah, it's lovely. Not to. 19:00.71 archaeoteacup This now. 19:01.43 NATASHA BILLSON Start with social media and go from there now because that's kind of the way in. So everything's completely changed in the last few years people who are on social media now I've seen bearing in mind as I said I've worked in Tv Tv I've had experience of it since 2016 Twenty seventeen time as like my kind of side hustle well's been a fulltime commercial archeologist. 19:14.58 archaeoteacup Yeah. 19:21.25 NATASHA BILLSON Um, I've seen how it's changed in the last two years since the pandemic people who have social media. Presence are getting more work than people who are experts in the said field. Um, who ah, who would be good to to even convey that information if they have the opportunity. They're just not online. They're just not making the content. 19:23.60 archaeoteacup Yeah, true. 19:37.66 archaeoteacup Ah, right? yeah. 19:40.21 NATASHA BILLSON So these social media um individuals are are getting the work and they are not necessarily um, equipped they're not equipped. You know they're just reading off the random script that they've googled and and that's it. However, and I'm not and that's quite bad. Maybe for me to say it that way. But it's true. Um. 19:45.56 archaeoteacup The expat. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. 19:58.84 NATASHA BILLSON Generally speaking. There's a lot of individuals who do that? Of course there's other individuals who make these um, amazing content and they have great. You know they do proper research. They put the sources in there. The captions I'll be honest I don't always put the sources of my captions. Yeah, but the point is yeah I mean I make mistakes you know everyone makes mistakes. 20:03.81 archaeoteacup Yeah, do the proper research and yeah. 20:13.90 archaeoteacup Ah, we trust Deta yeah. 20:18.81 NATASHA BILLSON Um, but there are people who literally have no archaeology background history background and they're getting the platform because so they're getting the opportunities because they have the platform so Archaeologists historians anyone who specializes in something out there who wants to convey this information. Um, don't be annoyed by people you see online conveying. 20:23.25 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 20:37.41 NATASHA BILLSON Something in popular media If you are not online doing it yourself. 20:40.56 archaeoteacup Exactly? yeah yeah I think that that's very very good advice and indeed we do actually have to have to wrap up because it's ah getting towards the end of our Tbreak and it sounds like your princess and my little one um, both getting a little impatient with us. So. 20:46.15 NATASHA BILLSON And I. 20:56.13 NATASHA BILLSON Um. 20:56.67 archaeoteacup Probably time for us to go go and deal with their needs. But thank you so so much for joining me today tash I really really appreciated you taking the time out to come and speak to me today and if anyone wants to find out more about tash's work and projects the Sutton who helmet and burial any of the other things we've talked about today. 21:02.83 NATASHA BILLSON Course anytime. 21:13.41 archaeoteacup Check out the show notes on the podcast homepage if there's something by the way you ever think I've missed feel free to get in contact and let me know and I can always add things later as well. So I hope that you enjoyed our journey today if by the way you fancy helping to support this show and all of the other amazing series that form. The archaeology podcast network because we always do try to do proper research and make sure that we present valid and relevant information to the public as well as being informative and entertaining. You can become an apm member and that helps us to create even more free. Amazing content. Ah, we'll also have exclusive access access to ad-free episodes you can ever access to bonus content like our quarterly online seminars for more information. Just check out the Homepage Archaeologypocastnetwork.com and you can also join our brand new discord server and continue the conversation afterwards. So. Maybe see you there if not see you next month for another episode of tea break time travel.