00:00.00 archaeoteacup Okay, ready all right good because remember at the end of our last episode we saw all of those like flashing lights in the sky exactly so we decided to investigate further and we see. 00:00.00 Ashleigh Airey Ready. 00:06.77 Ashleigh Airey Oh yeah, they almost looked like fireworks. 00:15.57 archaeoteacup That they are indeed fiery explosions which seem to be coming from the direction of a nearby field. We walk over and see that what we thought were fireworks are actually huge balls of fire that are being launched from 2 ends of the field. So each time one ball is launched from one side an answering ball is hurled from the other side to crash into it with a. Bang of flame and sparks looking closer. We see that at either end of the field stand 2 tall men. Although actually they only appear tall because they're wearing long pointy hats and they have long robes flowing and swirling around their bodies as they flail with their arms and jump up and down apparently in. Anger I assume the magic is clear one is screaming. It is clearly affected by the external influence of the current position of the moon which we know has a predetermined path that can be objectively quantified your objectively quantified retorts the other. There is no objectivity. You see the moon but the troll living on the next hill sees nothing but a huge lump of pitted rock that is just interpretation. Lap sir is the whole bloody point standing to one side is a group of huddled figures also with pointy hats but of significantly lower height. We approach and ask what is going on. Oh thank good. You're here. They cry we were just thinking that we should call you in. They're having another theoretical argument and it's gotten a little bit out of hand another fireball explodes into the sky above us so based based just on what they have been. 01:40.30 Ashleigh Airey Whoa. 01:44.97 archaeoteacup Screaming at each other since we arrived and considering its theory Now they are wizards so we don't know exactly what they're kind of researching but because we're archaeologists. Of course we have to base it on what we know from archaeological theory. So what would you think? ah of when you hear. Ah. 01:45.57 Ashleigh Airey M. 02:02.60 archaeoteacup These sort of arguments being thrown around. 02:03.38 Ashleigh Airey Oh I think it's the age old debate. It's perceptual archeology first versus post perceptual archeology ding ding ding d dinging for seual. 02:14.64 archaeoteacup Ah, so so we should get a little. We need to get a little like buzzer All was bru us you will like it all. Do ah the. 02:21.63 Ashleigh Airey And but it's all with the age old debate every single time There is always someone who's a precesionist and there's always someone who's a opposed precessionist and then there's us who are after the fact. 02:32.60 archaeoteacup Now egg exactly and I still remember learning about this in class out of curiosity as you we sort of I think we spoke about this in the first episode but I can't actually remember were you also someone who in quite actually enjoyed the archeological theory class right. 02:44.93 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, yeah I mean I mean that's I think that's why I went into material culture like post-proces or theory will talk about it but it talks a lot about material culture and the kind of relationship between and material culture and people a lot of the time. So yeah. 02:58.42 archaeoteacup Leave it. 03:01.54 Ashleigh Airey I did like it and also I'm just like I Love Theory I Think Theory's lot of fun and you can be and yeah and I sometimes we are the wizards arguing with each other I like that. 03:05.86 archaeoteacup Um, it's so much fun, right? And what I like is that you've sort of mentioned it already that yeah people the big names in archeology. And you have big names in like all these different theories which I'll I'll explain the theories a bit more in a second. But what I love is also when you read theoretical papers. It is honestly it's basically this scenario that we've just been in but written down on paper like it's just yeah. 03:34.34 Ashleigh Airey Absolutely yeah, the rebuttals look quite funny. 03:41.20 archaeoteacup So and and and they're so funny because they're written so professionally but they are so like burn like Mike drop like it's. 03:45.65 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, the shade in them is unreal. Yeah, it is gossip to the highest extreme you like oh who you know at Renfre does not like such and such channel like oh he doesn't agree with that. Did he? Oh you know? yeah. 03:56.67 archaeoteacup Yeah, exactly and it's so not even passive aggressive just aggressive aggressive like a lot of the things like the authors of this paper clear. 04:05.48 Ashleigh Airey Is plain aggressive. 04:10.91 archaeoteacup Did not consider or you know if they considered for some reason that is unbeknownst to me, they decided to you know, kind of thing and your day going. Oh boy. But. 04:18.60 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, and then and sometimes I find they have to have like another editor if they're doing like a larger book which is about like you know the different approaches or something just to make sure that they're not super biased in every single approach that they do. You know you like oh god. 04:28.90 archaeoteacup Ah, right? yeah. 04:34.86 archaeoteacup Um, ah I wonder whether the big names like ah know from the 2 sides whether they have you know all of these are so like these wizards as well. You know they're throwing fireballs at each other and they're getting angry but then afterwards they'll go together and have like a cup of tea or something like I wonder if the the professors like get together for a pint every so often and. 04:45.41 Ashleigh Airey Absolutely absolutely I remember like and even just in commercial people who went to University with each other and they were like he's always been the same since University he's always done then they would be like managers and they would squabble. And then they would like go out and have a meal together and you feel like just to understand how do that like can compartment lights my life like that. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 05:12.55 archaeoteacup Yeah, but it is right? It's really yeah, it's his business. It's just business or whatever in which an archeology in archaeological theory then means something else. Ah. 05:21.68 Ashleigh Airey I mean I think it's like I think archaeological theory is like the battleground of archaeology. So like it's like go to the mattresses. This is it. There's there's no longer just business. That's personal. 05:24.39 archaeoteacup This. 05:33.19 archaeoteacup And there's so many different arguments about different things like and even I remember hearing from um ah oh gosh I can't even remember who it was now but it was a very big name in archeological theory and it was just the whole thing was all about the world assemblage. And whether it is appropriate to use the word assemblage and what that word means and he gave an hour long talk about it and it was fascinating but afterwards I thought Michael came with me my husband um who is not an archaeologist. He came with me and afterwards he's like so what was I don't get it. What was the point of that was like yeah. 06:04.59 Ashleigh Airey What was that about and you and you just know right? that that's a rebuttal from someone that he's watched that he's said that they said the word assemblage in the wrong context and he was like that's not how you do it so and then they get their fury. 06:08.82 archaeoteacup Um. 06:11.43 archaeoteacup Right? Yeah and used it in a way that he didn't quite agree with yeah, exactly. 06:21.93 Ashleigh Airey And they start typing away and suddenly there's a whole conference about the word assemblage. Yeah. 06:26.45 archaeoteacup It just I mean it was I was fascinated I loved that talk but Michael thought it was a bit ridiculous, but um, still. 06:30.54 Ashleigh Airey But that's the thing we have to argue but the the kind of small things I think yeah. 06:37.10 archaeoteacup Yeah, exactly yeah and it gives us something to do those long evenings when we're digging holes. We have to think about something so ah for everyone who is the King But what on Earth is preciseive archeology to be fair, a lot of archaeologists. 06:43.11 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, true true. 06:54.28 archaeoteacup Also you know, sort of roughly what it is but it's one of those things that you just know the kind of vague concept of it but very few people actually know the like indepth but I'm just going to give here a very shallow very Shallow. Um. Overview of what it is So if anyone listening is interested in finding out more please do go and do some further reading I'll put some further readings in the show notes because this is just a very shallow single person's view on what these things are they're much more complicated than what I'm making them out to be here so process your archaeology. 07:16.40 Ashleigh Airey It. 07:23.91 archaeoteacup First emerged in the kind of late 1950 s early nineteen sixty s um and it was mainly Louis Binford who was kind of one of the big proponent of this idea of processual archaeology and I mean it's hard to imagine now I think there's so many things in modern archeology that we just take for granted but actually if you look back. At that time period. There were so many things that were problematic like happening before then and these big theoretical changes actually made big changes in how we look at the past and how we consider people and how we consider modern cultures as well. Indigenous cultures gender archeology et cetera so we'll get into that in a sec but so processual archaeology was also referred to as. The new archaeology so that kind of shows you how big a deal. It was like at this time and it was basically a criticism of earlier theories. Um multiple theories which had almost seen the sort of sites and materials and archaeological evidence is just snatic sta static snapshots. that's that's a hard word that's like statistics static snapshots um of the past so you know they were left exactly like that and that's as if you came along and just took a ah little a little picture of the past That's what it was however processual archeology as the name suggests argued that the past was not just multiple static moments. It was actually part of an ongoing dynamic process. 08:43.22 archaeoteacup Um, which then comprised of kind of multiple systems that were coming in and was affected by multiple systems as well. Um, so for example, you could look at kind of economic developments. You could look at changes in subsistence and how they were affected. You could see the effect of environmental changes on society so this was also when a lot of. Like models came into place. So it's like right? a lot of hunter gatherer studies looked at kind of models over what's the most for want of a better word. Efficient way for them to you know, get the material and what would they have done and in order to survive kind of thing. There was a lot of focus on survival. So it requires a much more like scientific approach. Was very testable and objective methods very model focused very systems, focused, etc. Um, however, you then had in the 1970 s in the 1980 s you had um, a lot of actually people who were processual archaeologists. So Ian Hodter was originally. 09:23.44 Ashleigh Airey Ah. 09:36.93 archaeoteacup Kind of a processual archaeologist. Um, he used to do kind of modeling and all of that kind of stuff and by modeling I don't mean like airplanes I mean like like um, computer modeling of things so kind of predictive modeling. Um in that respect. Ah, but then yeah they realize actually no this is. You can't look at the past in this way the past is too Messy. We can't look at it through this objective lens We can't kind of look at it as as a computer program. Um, because you have all of these different things you have things like agency and we spoke in an earlier episode about object agency. For example, that was a big part of postprocessual but also human agency So people. Have agency people have the ability to make their own decisions. I mean this is a whole other philosophical discussion over whether free will exists or you know, but we let's maybe not get into that now. Um, but you know change isn't just due to external influence basically is what they were saying. It's also you know internal choice. Um, and yeah, so so that there was. 10:22.30 Ashleigh Airey Um. 10:33.79 archaeoteacup A lot more subjectivity brought in and my favorite thing ever in archeology is related to post-processial archeology and it's that idea that all of our interpretations are just going to inherently be biased by us like by our own experience and our own context and we have to understand that in order to kind of make interpretive. Um, decisions. So unlike the processs list who said, no no, no, we can be really objective the post-process us were like na. We cannot um, so yeah and and kind of big names in in the post-processial archeology as we mentioned was Ian Hodter you also have for example Michael Shanks Christopher Tilley Margaret Conke just to name a few and big names incessual archaeology. Ah yeah, Lewis Benford who was kind of almost thought of as the father of procesial archaeology and then you have David Clark Colin Remfre etc um so yeah as we were talking about earlier. You had sort of all these big names who were then basically. 11:28.46 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 11:28.58 archaeoteacup Arguing with each other a lot about um yeah, and what what I love as well is there's also this argument that for example with post-processial archeology that actually it doesn't exist because no 2 people who call themselves or who might think that their postprocesual archeologists actually think in exactly the same way like everyone has. 11:46.17 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 11:48.80 archaeoteacup Which also kind of proves the point of processive post processsive aop in the we're all affected by yeah yeah. 11:51.58 Ashleigh Airey By our own bias. Yeah, exactly and it's sort of it's moved on from there as well. But we when I was our university and this was a few years ago. So it might have changed. We didn't quite have a name for it yet of what what we were. We like us our generation of archaeologists were so we kind of past the post. 12:01.52 archaeoteacup Right? Yeah, right? yeah. 12:10.55 Ashleigh Airey We're post post precessual you know and well the new way of archeology coined here. 12:11.69 archaeoteacup You knew with the newest. It's like it's like when you know really have like a a word document and you're like final version and then you redo it. You're like okay final point one and then final so final version This is definitely the last the newest archology. 12:27.52 Ashleigh Airey Ah, yeah, well basically Joey with this Thor the I can't think the Thor goodness me my now now thesaurus um, where we like what is post what is well could we? How could we say this differently? um. 12:31.31 archaeoteacup This is just the episode where neither of us can pronounce any that sorrow static snapshot right? yeah. 12:44.72 Ashleigh Airey And one of the things I think is really interesting with this kind of debate is that you still see it in University today. Not only and obviously the the lecturers and who believes and what and so forth, but and choosing archeology as a degree in the science was a history. That's where it comes down to so. 12:48.91 archaeoteacup Earth. 12:58.73 archaeoteacup Yeah, which well I'm curious What what your experience with that was because you also did materials stuff but you didn't do material analysis from an archeological like from a scientific perspective right. 13:03.22 Ashleigh Airey A lot of the times. 13:08.81 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 13:15.43 Ashleigh Airey Well I did but I did my degree in humanities. So yeah, so you could up at Glasg Green University you could choose to do your degree in archeology in sciences. So my friend did her bachelors in sciences and she. 13:16.46 archaeoteacup What did you do? Also do that? No okay. 13:29.48 archaeoteacup The. 13:32.57 Ashleigh Airey And we had to like sit somewhere else at graduate and wear a different colored robe. Yeah, so she she's sat on the other side of the hall and then and she had like a yellow and green top of ah her robe. Um, and then we had ah who were humanities had a purple. 13:35.37 archaeoteacup But you guys sit in the pressces will side and with that. 13:50.77 archaeoteacup Ah I've only have that. 13:51.67 Ashleigh Airey And like a dark um like purple um one. So yeah and I don't know how ah and I don't think she knew why I ended up by that. Um I think because she took geology as well. Not and she wasn't doing both but because she wanted to do geology and she wanted to do archeology. She had to go through the sciences. 14:07.90 archaeoteacup Right? Yeah yeah. 14:10.95 Ashleigh Airey While everybody else I did history and archeology and I went through history but that was kind of Ian Hotter he thought that you know archeology should be seen more as a history and or a historical subject and then you know you had um Colin Renfer who actually was like no, it's science. And that's kind of the basic. It's science versus history. But now where yeah, but now we're actually both like we've always been both obviously there's different sides to it. But yeah you you look at a site and you interpret it in a different way and most of the stuff I was doing especially on on different sites was mostly science I mean. 14:29.55 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, which of these 2 wizards. Yeah. 14:47.79 Ashleigh Airey Taking samples looking at site through a different lens like that's the kind of way that you do it and you're trying to get as much information and data as possible in the short amount of time. Um, so yeah, it's It's funny how it still permeates in into the academic structure. Um. 14:53.68 archaeoteacup Yeah. 14:59.97 archaeoteacup Yeah, well and even I like that you say it's sort of both science and interpretation. So what I did micro analysis So that's definitely scientific in that you're identifying traces like right, you're looking at the evidence but it's so subjective because how you interpret those traces. 15:12.70 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 15:16.98 archaeoteacup You know? So. There's also so much debate about what terminology to Use. We shouldn't use the word interpret we should actually use the word identify. But then if we use the word interpret that has to reflect that it's our own biased interpretation. There's so much like stuff about it. So I did Science I Did my undergrad was um, it ended up being. A masters of arts but it was in the geos Aberdeen It's in the geosciences department. So It's very much.. It's a lot more scientifically focused even though you're doing a lot of theory as well and then for my masters I did archaeological science. But yeah, we we had to you have to and understand how much. Even though you're looking at the data and everything still the way that you're interpreting that data is inherently biased. Even you know, Um, yeah. 15:57.60 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, exactly and you you can't you can't be objective with that I don't think as a person like we also grew up in a society. We have a modern lens and we often place it in the past and that's something that we will talk about in future episodes. But you know that's inevitable I find and I think. 16:07.48 archaeoteacup Yeah. 16:14.26 archaeoteacup Yes, the. 16:17.68 Ashleigh Airey That's just what's happening here in that argument. It's them developing their theory over and over again I mean withoutcesual archeology. You wouldn't have postproceual archeology and you wouldn't have whatever that whatever we are now you know so. 16:24.53 archaeoteacup Exactly Yeah, exactly. And yeah. 16:30.31 Ashleigh Airey And you wouldn't have feminist archaeology look coming into it because post-procession doesn't look at just the systems but it looks at the people and it looks how people are reflected in the systems. But also how the systems are reflected in the people and how they're entangled in that way. So it starts to look at gender and so otherwise we would just have very kind of limited scope. 16:40.80 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, that. 16:49.63 Ashleigh Airey Of what um archeology and what the past was like if we if we kept it as it was in the early 50 s and sixty s and you've got to remember that in the early 50 s and sixty s there's a lot of scientific change going on I mean radio carbon dating comes into it and which is very different from when we had the antiquarian stuff where it was literally just a man and a chair pointing and making. 17:01.60 archaeoteacup Visit. Is it. 17:08.16 archaeoteacup Ah yes, ah. 17:09.33 Ashleigh Airey Manual late laborers just day. We do all the digging and they'd be like yes, that's very nice. Yes, great. Exactly. 17:12.16 archaeoteacup And do you have social changes happening as well like a lot in in society and how we see other cultures how we saw yeah genders and and that kind of thing like it's a lot of yeah. 17:23.94 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, exactly So there's a lot of change in our own society That's reflected back onto how we um interpret I'm going to say interpret the past. 17:32.84 archaeoteacup Yeah that's okay because you are interpreting. Yeah no exactly and I mean for those of you who are listening by the way and thinking I mean yes, sureul this is interesting. But why do you have to learn about the history of archaeological theory like if we're no longer Processualist. Why do we have to know about it I mean 1 argumentant that I would say is that. You have to you quite often have to read other papers right in order to be able to reference your own work and sort of see what's been done before and all of that kind of thing and you need to kind of understand where those researchers are coming from because you know if if their interpretations or their theoretical framework is based in for example, processual or post-processual. 17:55.43 Ashleigh Airey Who. 18:11.76 archaeoteacup That will affect the kind of conclusions that they're making just like the wizards you know like both of these wizards are talking about the moon but they both have very different ideas of what it is So if you would read just the the study from one of them. You would have a very different thought about oh this is what the moon is compared to from the other one. So. That's at least my argument I don't know if you'd agree with that. 18:31.15 Ashleigh Airey No definitely I think I think you have to understand Arch I mean archeology is a study of the past. Why can't you understand the history of archeology as well. You know that's kind of where we need to go for it. Think. 18:38.71 archaeoteacup Yeah, exactly? No no yeah so based on all of this. We then decide. Okay, let's just try to reason with the 2 wizards right? pointing out the pros and cons of both of their theoretical approaches trying to get them to compromise and to understand. The other's perspective where it's coming from how it's developing. There's a little bit of a soft lull as we make our arguments the wizards both eye each other dubiously in the calm a bird starts to warble its song into the air nearby. It seems as if tranquility might finally be falling over the fields again. But then. On guard you flouncey ninny cries one of them bring it on you stiff-necked prick shouts the other and fireballs once more fill the sky. 19:25.80 Ashleigh Airey Ah, just goes to show. You can never really stop a certain kind of academic when they just want to have an argument. 19:30.87 archaeoteacup Exactly well, that's about it for this episode of am my trial. We hope you enjoyed this slightly different quest if. As always. There's any suggestions that people have for an episode that you might have gotten from a fantasy book. Maybe there's an archaeological concept like a theory such as those mentioned today that you don't really understand perhaps we can help to explain it through fantasy scenarios. Maybe there's something in a book that you want to find out more about from an archaeological perspective. Whatever it is. Just get in contact with us via email or social media. All of our contact info as well as references and further reading for the points we've discussed today can be found in the show notes. 20:13.74 archaeoteacup I I'm just go to pose. 20:14.54 Ashleigh Airey But. 20:25.73 archaeoteacup Um, ah what's that Okay, let's go check it out. 20:27.20 Ashleigh Airey Um I don't know but I definitely don't like it.